Open 104 - The New C9 - Game Over

[Sun Tzu]

I think OMG's claim is more likely to be villager FPS than a wolf tactic, but I'd still like to hear his thoughts on what he was trying to accomplish.

I'd also like to hear what matrix thinks he was trying to accomplish if he's scum.

[Sun Tzu]

Hitch, if you haven't played with matrix before, how are you so sure he wouldn't say that as a villager?

Skimming his posts in chuck as suggested by atak, and there is NO WAY atak adresses the issue if he isn't sure that matrix wouldn't act this way as a villager, regardless of atak's role.

This is a little level 27 but I could have complete faith that atak beliaves matrix wouldn't act this way as a villager, regardless of atak's role. He simply couldn't put something like that out there unless it was true because it would be an invitation to be shot at, as any role. In addition, I give atak's reading ability of players in general, but obviously in particular of players he has played with and I haven't as superior to my ability.

2+2

Are you saying scum atak wouldn't ever make this case against town matrix?

Could town atak be wrong?

[zhaorx]

unvote: siesta

vote: cougar

[Stef]

omfg... 10 pages in a few hours. Damn.. reading now.

[matrix]

How could I possibly be doing this as a power role? oEJo would just come in and tell you all that I was lying.

Basically I am either exactly a mason with oEJo, or a wolf with him.

dug up from page 2 before this quality post gets buried.

[matrix]

I did not call you stupid under any form. Calling some1 a newbie is not an insult.

You inferred I was a newbie.

Someone else inferred I was stupid.

Ive played longer than both of you. I think you are both out of line.

aaaaaaaaand this quality post as well.

appeal to experience.

You imply inone post you are exactly this or exactly that, when if fact we can deduce very little from the claim other than the fact that one of you/your supposed partner is lying.

Townies have no need to lie.

[Hitch]

Are you saying scum atak wouldn't ever make this case against town matrix?

no, I'm saying the line of thinking is both the same and correct whatever atak's role is.

If atak is mafia, he cannot let his mafia partner matrix get away with that slip because it makes him look bad.

If atak is mafia and matrix is town, well that's just a bad beat, matrix's actions lead to matrix=mafia a massive % of the time, and I don't have a crystal ball to know when the other times are.

If atak is villager, the thinking is clearly correct.

Could town atak be wrong?

yes.

Should we only vote for peeked mafia? This game will be longer than even is normal for thios site.

[atakdog]

I did not call you stupid under any form. Calling some1 a newbie is not an insult.

You inferred I was a newbie.

Someone else inferred I was stupid.

Ive played longer than both of you. I think you are both out of line.

aaaaaaaaand this quality post as well.

appeal to experience.

You imply inone post you are exactly this or exactly that, when if fact we can deduce very little from the claim other than the fact that one of you/your supposed partner is lying.

Townies have no need to lie.

Matrix, on a fake claim:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59/pu ... ost7257402 (it's post 3002, in case something gets messed up:

"Really I do get that a seer counter claim as a villager could be a good thing."

It was about a different type of claim in a different situation, yes, but it shows that matrix's game is

way

beyond this childishly simple "townies have no need to lie" crap.

[Sun Tzu]

Ok, let's lay out all the possibilities:


1. OMG is scum. EJ is town.

Why would he make a false claim here?


2. OMG is scum. EJ is scum.

- OMG decided to claim masons without EJ's approval, so EJ decided to bus him instead.

- They decided to sacrifice OMG to clear EJ.

Both of these scenarios seem extremely unlikely.


3. OMG is town. EJ is town. They are masons.

- EJ thinks OMG's claim was a bad idea, so he leaves his partner out to dry?


4. OMG is town. EJ is town. They are not masons.

- OMG is a mason, but with someone else and he misread his PM.

- OMG is regular town and claimed for some kind of FPS.

I don't know what this is supposed to accomplish.

5. OMG is town. EJ is scum.

This scenario is the same as 4 as far as OMG is concerned, since he doesn't know EJ's role.


My problem is none of these scenarios make any sense to me.

[matrix]

keep spinning Atak.


just keep spinning, just keep spinning.

[matrix]

read deeper into that thread and you will note that I am very very anti fake claiming anything. One quote taken out of context = more to the gossamer illusion side of argument imo = Atak = Mafia than Town atak looking hard for solid reasons to vote to lynch someone.

In other news m1ke is likely a Mafia Goon.

Atak, let us set aside our squabble for the moment, whom else do you believe in this Town is acting Scummy?

Once I turn up Town tomorrow who will you be pushing for then?

[atakdog]

keep spinning Atak.


just keep spinning, just keep spinning.

Fabulous defense. Very impressive.

Of course, you've already come up with a defense: your post was so tonally scummy that you wouldn't do it as your first post on a new site if you weer scum (but I guess it's cool to do as town). And your defense re the content, which that we had no choice but to lynch OMG for his claim? To go find other reasons to lynch OMG, and not to address my contention that your initial reasoning was unlike you.

I may be wrong, having played only two or three games with you, but I don't think so.

[SiestaGuru]

Maybe OMG made his claim to draw fire to himself, or to start a discssion in which a maffia might make some sort of mistake.
EJ, falsely being called a mason, would obviously choose to deny this and vote OMG for it, because in both cases (him being scum or town) it would be a bad thing for EJ:

If EJ is scum, he would become a suspect of the real masons, and if OMG would die and turn out to be no mason, hed have the whole town chasing him.

If EJ is town, he would become a scum-magnet, and the masons would suspect him.

Only if they are truely masons, or both scum, EJS choice would be a bad one. OMGs claim is too confusing for me, but I think its reasonably safe to say they aren't masons, and at least one of them is town.

[atakdog]

read deeper into that thread and you will note that I am very very anti fake claiming anything. One quote taken out of context = more to the gossamer illusion side of argument imo = Atak = Mafia than Town atak looking hard for solid reasons to vote to lynch someone.

In other news m1ke is likely a Mafia Goon.

Atak, let us set aside our squabble for the moment, whom else do you believe in this Town is acting Scummy?

Once I turn up Town tomorrow who will you be pushing for then?

I do see that you are anti-fake claim (and to anyone who doesn't want to read those threads: he is). It is more that you focused on this one without admitting of other possibilities. You don't always do that.

Who else is scummy? I have a hard time reading the locals, because their reactions reflect a different approach. Stef, for example, was ridiculously defensive, but it didn't feel like a necessarily scummy reaction.

M1KE is a villager imo. Again, may be wrong, but I'm comfortable with it for now.

Z's response to the fighting he started was villagery at first, but it was wolfscummy of him to slip away rather than keep drawing fire, as I expected him to do.

Sun linked to a couple of his wolf games. You should read the second one. It's too earlier to tell, but there's at least some indication he's scum here -- less carefree than village sun. (To be fair, it was over the top obvious in the games he linked to, and isn't here.)

[Sun Tzu]

read deeper into that thread and you will note that I am very very anti fake claiming anything. One quote taken out of context = more to the gossamer illusion side of argument imo = Atak = Mafia than Town atak looking hard for solid reasons to vote to lynch someone.

In other news m1ke is likely a Mafia Goon.

Atak, let us set aside our squabble for the moment, whom else do you believe in this Town is acting Scummy?

Once I turn up Town tomorrow who will you be pushing for then?

I do see that you are anti-fake claim (and to anyone who doesn't want to read those threads: he is). It is more that you focused on this one without admitting of other possibilities. You don't always do that.

Who else is scummy? I have a hard time reading the locals, because their reactions reflect a different approach. Stef, for example, was ridiculously defensive, but it didn't feel like a necessarily scummy reaction.

M1KE is a villager imo. Again, may be wrong, but I'm comfortable with it for now.

Z's response to the fighting he started was villagery at first, but it was wolfscummy of him to slip away rather than keep drawing fire, as I expected him to do.

Sun linked to a couple of his wolf games. You should read the second one. It's too earlier to tell, but there's at least some indication he's scum here -- less carefree than village sun. (To be fair, it was over the top obvious in the games he linked to, and isn't here.)

How was I scummy in those games?

[atakdog]

Sun, you said a couple weeks ago that if I'd seen your wolf games I wouldn't consider you unreadable. Now I have, and I know you're not -- and if you're making that statement, you know the difference, too.

Early in village games you are relaxed and make short, mostly less than serious posts; you knuckle down in the second half. In the games to which you linked you were serious in most of the posts. (You were also pretty obvious with your mistaken self-vote and subsequent backpedaling, but that was a one-time thing).

Far from conclusive. Just a lean atm.

[Mada]

could everybody please focus on THIS game rather than on the entire history of every player? It's rather disturbing and no fun for the ones who haven't actually played with you before. I'm just saying this is probably the least fun game I have ever seen. Besides, it is very rude. And all this personal and offending stuff... seriously???

[zhaorx]

mada,

i suspect you have read the thread. any reads so far?

[atakdog]

could everybody please focus on THIS game rather than on the entire history of every player? It's rather disturbing and no fun for the ones who haven't actually played with you before. I'm just saying this is probably the least fun game I have ever seen. Besides, it is very rude. And all this personal and offending stuff... seriously???

Wait a minute: it's "very rude" to use a person's playing history in different roles to attempt to deduce his role here? Disturbing that we might draw parallels? No fun when we give you the relevant links?

Fine. We'll play this game. Matrix made an argument that I get the impression he should know better than to make, and then went looking for backup when called on it; he's mafia. Sun seems slightly forced; he may be mafia. M1KE has adopted a style that seems villagery. Zhaorx's disappearance after he started fighting with people seems fairly scummy. Stef is hypersensitive, but I doubt it's a mafia tell. Hitch is following me closely enough that we ought to keep our eyes on him, but he's also posting solid reasoning; no read yet.

OMG made an odd, and now countered, claim, but we should give teh bad guys a chance to resolve it.

Fair?

[Sun Tzu]

Sun, you said a couple weeks ago that if I'd seen your wolf games I wouldn't consider you unreadable. Now I have, and I know you're not -- and if you're making that statement, you know the difference, too.

Early in village games you are relaxed and make short, mostly less than serious posts; you knuckle down in the second half. In the games to which you linked you were serious in most of the posts. (You were also pretty obvious with your mistaken self-vote and subsequent backpedaling, but that was a one-time thing).

Far from conclusive. Just a lean atm.

What mistaken self-vote? Are you fucking serious?

[atakdog]

What mistaken self-vote? Are you fucking serious?

I'm not saying you actually made the alleged mistake (you pretty clearly did it on purpose, though everyone in the game misinterpreted it). I mean the subsequent conversation.

[Sun Tzu]

Atak, tell me you're just trying to press my buttons or something.

[zhaorx]

who'd i fight with?

[atakdog]

Atak, tell me you're just trying to press my buttons or something.

Actually, I think pushing your buttons would be a very revealing exercise, but that wasn't my intent.

You subbed into the game and placed a vote on the person you had subbed for. Should I have referred to it differently?

[atakdog]

who'd i fight with?

Maybe the person of whom you asked, "Are you retarted?" I'd say that counts.