Mini Theme 2312| Blood on the Clocktower: Sects & Violets | Village are Doomed!

[AniX]

I think my wincon requires me to practice more care in taking that risk such that I don't make choices based on a whim, which is what a n1 choice would have been.

[Infinity 324]

why is swapping alignments so bad for town? the person who was previously a demon can claim, so we know what happened right? and yeah they get poisoned, but if you're not going to use your ability anyway that doesn't seem like a big deal.

this is a strange claim to make as scum, but it's also strange as town, so.

[AniX]

An awkwardness in converting BotC to Mafia is the increased wincon burden. BotC is not designed to be played competitively in the way we do Mafia and as such, while you obviously aren't supposed to deliberately sabotage your team, playing Snake Charmer as a sort of "I am going to play this neutral because at any time I could switch teams" is a valid playstyle. The rules of competitive mafia, and particularly the rules of the site, make that sort of playstyle a bit murkier. I am currently town. Me converting to Demon does not help town, which I am obligated to help to the fullest of my ability right now.

[AniX]

Well, once the Demon reveals himself, I have a different wincon and I wouldn't want that to happen. Snake Charmer is not really a role I would put in this game because it puts me in a weird position where anything I do will produce results that will hurt my wincon when that result happens, but it is in the game, I have the role, and I have to navigate how it interacts with wincon requirements.

[atsi]

I think my wincon requires me to practice more care in taking that risk such that I don't make choices based on a whim, which is what a n1 choice would have been.

That seems like a very anti-town thing to do, assuming you're telling the truth. You even mentioned yourself how important information is in this game..

[AniX]

It hurts the town because all information, reads, etc. go out the window because two alignments just flipped. The game moves to everyone suspecting everyone else. A flipped Snake Charmer produces chaos and just by process of elimination tends to happen later in the game and thus produces more chaos. The town is better served by me being a vanilla townie than someone who explodes the town on a 1/7, then 1/6, then 1/5, etc. etc.

[AniX]

Yes, information is important, which is why it is just that much more important to not turn the entire information circle upside down in latestage game.

[atsi]

No, it doesn't "explode the town." Like Infinity just pointed out, it's obvious when it happens because the previous demon is always gonna claim.

[AniX]

I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove here though. I am telling people to vote me, you are already voting me, I am voting for myself, there is no role in the game that triggers ill effects if an evil player dies by execution. There isn't really much value in debating whether you would play the role in a different way than I am.

[AniX]

Like if you think I'm lying about being Snake Charmer, we should be killing me. If you think I am actually the Snake Charmer, we should still be killing me.

[Infinity 324]

Well, once the Demon reveals himself, I have a different wincon and I wouldn't want that to happen.

so? i don't get what you're saying here, if you're just playing to the town wincon while you have a town role, swapping alignments isn't a disaster and the risk seems well well worth it. if you're playing to try to win the game, which is probably what i would do, it's even less bad to swap alignments because you're just playing a normal game as scum with town down 1 pr.

if we're agreeing to lim anix here, we can try to maximize flowergirl and town crier. though i'm not sure if you can actually vote without nominating? that would make things more complicated

[atsi]

Like if you think I'm lying about being Snake Charmer, we should be killing me. If you think I am actually the Snake Charmer, we should still be killing me.

True, but I would still like to get a better idea of which alignment you are to help solve the overall game rather than just the question of who gets executed today.

[AniX]

It explodes the town by rendering all previous information potentially moot because an alignment/role shift has occurred. Flower Girls and Two Crier math no longer works, Clockmakers are irrelevant, Dreamers/Seamstresses have to start over/lose out if they are dead, Savants don't know if what they were told still is accurate, Artists might lose any value from their question depending on what they asked...

[AniX]

Well, once the Demon reveals himself, I have a different wincon and I wouldn't want that to happen.

so? i don't get what you're saying here, if you're just playing to the town wincon while you have a town role, swapping alignments isn't a disaster and the risk seems well well worth it. if you're playing to try to win the game, which is probably what i would do, it's even less bad to swap alignments because you're just playing a normal game as scum with town down 1 pr.

if we're agreeing to lim anix here, we can try to maximize flowergirl and town crier. though i'm not sure if you can actually vote without nominating? that would make things more complicated

You can vote freely for anyone already currently nominated (which is just me), just remember you cannot remove your vote once cast. Or you can use your one nomination of the day to nominate someone new.

[Infinity 324]

If you think I am actually the Snake Charmer, we should still be killing me.

why?

[Infinity 324]

so we should probably have 2 more people vote and 3 more people nominate, ideally split between the voters and nonvoters yeah?

[Infinity 324]

having to open up the limpool to people we've previously cleared based on mech does seem pretty bad yeah

[atsi]

so we should probably have 2 more people vote and 3 more people nominate, ideally split between the voters and nonvoters yeah?

Yeah, 5 votes on AniX seems best. Not sure about nominating since there could be a witch.

[Infinity 324]

mm yeah maybe we could have people we consider scummy nominate? not sure who that is even

[atsi]

It explodes the town by rendering all previous information potentially moot because an alignment/role shift has occurred. Flower Girls and Two Crier math no longer works, Clockmakers are irrelevant, Dreamers/Seamstresses have to start over/lose out if they are dead, Savants don't know if what they were told still is accurate, Artists might lose any value from their question depending on what they asked...

You realize most of those examples only work after the first night has already taken place? Flowergirl and town crier are N2+, and Savant and Artist happen during the day. Those shouldn't have factored into your decision on using your ability on the first night.

[atsi]

mm yeah maybe we could have people we consider scummy nominate? not sure who that is even

Well, we got like 5 more irl days to scumhunt for them!

[atsi]

AniX is most likely minion and not demon in my mind (if they are demon, I guess we'll find out) so I guess town crier is really only useful in the worst-case scenario where AniX is a mislim. But it's probably still worth it I think.

[AniX]

Is it your view a Minion would immediately encourage themselves to be executed when there are a number of still in play ways to discredit Nurse? If I was actually a minion, I'd have liked to have thought I'd have just stopped in my "well, not a tiny chance, here's why". What benefit does Minion-me derive from dying right now?

[Infinity 324]

If you think I am actually the Snake Charmer, we should still be killing me.

why?

[AniX]

Because an open Snake Charmer is a town distraction, the town will never fully trust me because every day could be a possible flip AND I have an open guilty result on me that is yet unexplained. It is better to eliminate me now, remove the distraction, and move on, especially when there doesn't seem to be much other information to go on.