Mini Theme 2312| Blood on the Clocktower: Sects & Violets | Village are Doomed!
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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When I've played Clocktower before, the better town games are the ones where Town identifies what kind of Minion/Demon they are dealing with early on, so everyone be on the lookout for clues.
Evil Twin we'll learn pretty much immediately since both Good and Evil Twins will want to get that info out.
Witch we won't learn until it triggers but we'll know for a fact once it does.
Cerenovus we'll possibly learn Day 2, unless they decide to madnesslock someone and never not target them. Once we find out there is a Novus, keep that in mind for if anyone starts suddenly and randomly changing claims, because we'll need to fill in their blanks for them so they don't get killed for breaking madness.
Pit-Hag, if they target a good player, we should find out immediately (unless the player decides to be goofy and keep this info from town) since alignment doesn't change.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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It is Night, but kind of a weird Night because some abilities will ONLY work this Night phase and some ability work every night BUT this one, but you can talk any time during this game, yes.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Yeah, Demon knows all Minions and Minions know the Demon and other Minions, according to the normal BotC rules and also the sample PMs. It is unclear whether they get a hood (or temporary hood) together. Standard BotC would allow them to talk to one another, but this is not standard.
The three roles is exactly what it sounds like: The Demon will be told 3 roles that no town player has which they can use to bluff as (or pass along to the Minions to bluff as).Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Yeah. Which makes me think at least the Demon and one Minion are next to each other, because Demon not being able to talk privately AT ALL to the minions is 1. A HUGE departure from base game that I don't think Enchant necessarily would want to make 2. Puts the Demon and Minion at a serious disadvantage.In post 15, PiggyGal15 wrote: From the way the PM examples are set-up, it doesn't look like Minions and Demon can talk privately unless they're beside each other on the list?Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Oh, wait, there is only one minion in the game. I don't know why I keep thinking there is 2. Nothing I said is WRONG but certainly "Minions know all other Minions" is...superfluous.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Yeah, anyone who even CONSIDERS no kill today with a Vortox in play should be the kill today lolIn post 21, Vanderscamp wrote: Couple quick thoughts:
We should definitely be executing someone today, I don't think even a random kill can ever be a worse idea than the 1/4 chance there's a vortox in play and we lose the game.
Ideally we try and keep the number of nominations/number of people who vote today at a healthy split for the flower girl and town crier, dream scenario would be four of us vote and four of us nominate, but the chance of a witch being in play probably makes that worse and the optimal number of nominations probably becomes two or three.
We should also all give juggles at some point today regardless of role, it's just a freeroll and there's no reason not to help give cover.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Yes, which will automatically also nominate. Usually, you'll want to vote and nominate and so the normal process might work. The big differences is you can only nominate once, so once you use your nomination you'll have to wait for someone else to nominate before you can vote for them and certain abilities trigger on nomination (but not voting) or voting (but not nominating).In post 32, Random Nurse wrote: I don't think I understand the Vote vs Nominate function.
Can't I just VOTE: Player like usual?
It should also be noted you can vote for as many nominated people as you like, but you can never UNVOTE even if you change your mind later and you'll have to wait for the next day for the votes to clear.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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For example: A reason someone might nominate without voting is if town suspects there is a flower girl in play and wants to get some nominations on the record to test for Minions. A few people might want to nominate a user you have no intention of voting for just to fuel that ability.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Correct. I forgot this game has a smaller pool, I'm used to playing with 13 people where there are multiple little Minion shits running around.In post 31, Random Nurse wrote:In post 17, AniX wrote:
Yeah. Which makes me think at least the DemonIn post 15, PiggyGal15 wrote: From the way the PM examples are set-up, it doesn't look like Minions and Demon can talk privately unless they're beside each other on the list?and one Minionare next to each other, because Demon not being able to talk privately AT ALL to the minions is 1. A HUGE departure from base game that I don't think Enchant necessarily would want to make 2. Puts the Demon and Minion at a serious disadvantage.
But there' only ONE demon and ONE minion, right?Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Ok, everyone has the ability to nominate ONE person and ONLY ONE person a day, which allows the person to be voted for. So nominating is using up your one "this person can be voted for" for the day. Now, usually this is no problem, because the person you want to nominate and vote for is also the person you want dead. But if you change your mind (or your choice doesn't gain traction), you'll need to rely on other people's nominations to get an elimination for the day.In post 39, Infinity 324 wrote: i read and still have no idea what people are talking about
what does nominating doOfficial Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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You can vote for as many people as you want, but you can never unvote. So it isn't like normal Mafia where you get 1 vote and move it around. It is more that the nominations are trying to gain signatures, so to speak, and the first nom to gain the proper amount of signatures go through.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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It sounds confusing, but it will start making sense once nominations start going up.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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It is more a Goldilocks sort of thing, where you try to get a good cross-section of the site to start and then start narrowing it down.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Mod would choose in whatever method the mod pleases.
You might if they have a lot of heat on them. Remember, dead players can still talk, so it might be worth it to a Demon to sacrifice Minion's ability to 1. get the heat off them (since now they seem good since they were demon killed) and 2. get this consolation prize.
Random, once you eliminate the truth since it can NEVER be true (which is how you catch a Vortox, everyone goes "There is no way all this info can exist in the same game")
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Random in the sense the mod can choose any particular way.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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In practice, the "arbitrary kill" is the mod re-balancing the game by killing off one of the Demons.In post 58, Infinity 324 wrote: the false results makes sense, for the pit-hag...whyOfficial Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Usually the pre-existing Demon, so effectively the Pit Hag (targeting themselves or another minion) would do a Demon coup. There is no other reason a Pit Hag would want to create a second Demon, since a town-aligned Demon is...not good for scum.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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All this is speculation based on what I've seen in the past, a mod may choose to do just about anything. It would be very rare a mod would let a Pit hag just summon a second evil demon though without consequence.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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I forgot they keep ability. Which is even more reason why a demon would want to do it, because all they lose is the Minion can't vote more than once.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Also keep in mind poisoning is BETTER than a roleblock because the townie will still believe their ability is functioning and will still be getting results. Those results will just now be crafted by the mod to hinder the player (poisoning often leads to wrong results, but it may not. For example, a mod might start giving a player correct results again if they suspect they are poisoning, making them believe the real result is a poisoned wrong result)Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Turning someone into a Vortox wouldn't help because the town-Vortox would know and would just say "Hey, I was pit hagged into a Vortox, all your results will now be wrong."In post 68, Infinity 324 wrote: i was thinking they could turn someone into vortox, but giving town a vig seems bad, evil twin could make sense though? idk how that would work
pedit: ? do they normally have multiple votes
Yes, a living player can vote for as many nominated people as they like, every day. A dead player can vote for one player, one time.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Not always. Because again, a dead player doesn't stop talking. So a dead player now can just share all their secrets and be confirmed likely good and telling the truth. Sometimes, you want to stop an ability you know or suspect a townie has and killing them is worth it. But sometimes, town-jacketing your partner is worth much more. Sometimes, you might even value poisoning a player over killing them since they'll pied piper the town in the wrong way with their opposites results. Like killing an investigative confirms them. Poisoning them right before they target you and get wrong information about you has a tendency to confirm YOU.In post 70, Infinity 324 wrote: i mean yeah it still generally seems better to kill them thoughOfficial Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Only investigatives whose ability can have more than one result. But sometimes like the Flowergirl/Town Crier/Seamstress would only be disabled until they figure out there is a Vortox, because they get binary results and the results under a Vortox are always wrong. So once they know there is a Vortox, they know the correct answer is the inverse of whatever answer they've been getting (ie. once a seamstress learns there is a vortox, they can go back and see that every result they got where two players DIDN'T share an alignment is now confirmed as those players actually sharing an alignment, since the only false answer to "yes, they share an alignment" is "no, they don't share an alignment.")In post 75, Infinity 324 wrote: oh so the pit hag minion still dies but keeps the ability? wild
if the vortox results are random (which is what i thought you were saying) then you still just get to disable town investigatives which is usefulOfficial Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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I probably I misspoke at some point, I wasn't expecting to educate the entire town on the game lol so let me try to clarify:
Vorton Info: MUST be false. Mod may choose any method to falsify the information if it has multiple options, but it cannot be true and in a binary option (Yes/no) it MUST be the wrong one.
Poison/Drunk: MAY be false. Mod will typically interpret the game in such a way to determine what would be most detrimental to the player, which could be correct information or could be false information.
There is no true randomness in this game in so much as there is never a moment the mod MUST randomize information given out.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Talking is actually most of the day too, even more so than Mafia, because while there are more votes, people will likely be more cautious in nomming because you only get to do it once a day.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Traditionally, Blood on the Clocktower has less public talk than Mafia does, although the neighborhood restrictions will probably increase public talk significantly.In post 120, Random Nurse wrote: Really. Where is everyone?Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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If their role starts producing results that don't make sense.In post 129, Hu Tao wrote: How would we even know if someone was poisoned or drunked?Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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It would be very difficult to know that information yet, because it isn't like the information is going to be information that is overtly nonsense like giving you a result about Zoraster or giving you a ping on a role that is not in the game. But as we move through the game, we will see that someone's results don't fit into the game state (or potentially their own results don't match themselves, like they get multiple demon results on living players) and we can speculate from there.In post 133, Hu Tao wrote:
Well has that happened to you or anyone else?In post 131, AniX wrote:
If their role starts producing results that don't make sense.In post 129, Hu Tao wrote: How would we even know if someone was poisoned or drunked?
This is a game where reads are less important (although they can still be important) and flow of information is CRITICAL. A town that doesn't share information relatively freely with at least some people is a town that is going to lose.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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The roles will list if they go off on night 1 or not in the sample role PM. All the demons have "each night but the first" language, as do some other roles, but other roles just have "each night"
Ability Happens First Night:
Clockmaker (but ONLY first night)
Dreamer
Snake Charmer
Mathematician
Witch
Cerenovus
All other roles with night abilities do not happen first night and so did not happen last night.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Well, it is more likely we have a Vortox since there is a 1/4 chance of that and would impact everyone, which isn't really that "tiny". But poison or drunk could also be in play:
Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:
Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist. No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.
Sweetheart is out, we haven't had a death to trigger it yet. Ditto Vigormortis.
Vortox is a contender, as I previously mentioned.
No Dashii is also a contender, although that puts more suspicion on me as a neighbor AND an info flip. Who is your other neighbor, Nurse?
I think we should see if anyone else got weird info (you don't need to mention this info) that would indicate Vortox. Otherwise, I think I'm a pretty strong contender for town's kill today, to take me off the board as a distraction. Then, if people still aren't getting a Vortox feel after results tomorrow, the next logical person to investigate should be Nurse's other neighbor (if anyone has any investigation roles, that'd a solid choice tonight)Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Please excuse the "definitely drunk or poisoned" clause, which I wrote, realized Vortox would also explain it, but then didn't delete. "Definitely" is not true. Possibly is.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Vote: AnixOfficial Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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1. No, but if Random Nurse is lying town should send him a fruit basket because Minion/Demon drawing attention to themselves in this game as their first real action is a bold and foolish move. Nurse exposing himself to take me out and only getting a Snake Charmer in the bargain would be a town win.In post 148, atsi wrote:
Do you have some information that proves Random Nurse is town? Assuming you are town, I don't see how you can rule out the possibility that Random Nurse is simply lying.In post 142, AniX wrote: Ok, Random Nurse is definitely poisoned or drunk, which actually is very good information. It indicates one of the following situations is true:
What do you mean by this?In post 142, AniX wrote: Philosopher named Artist, perhaps thinking the Artist is a power rule to get (this is a very common mindset. I don't really agree because one question doesn't really do much), said Artist and, since Artist is in game, named Artist.No reason for Philosopher to be shy if this is the case, they don't have any role anymore.
2. The Philosopher is a one-off role. In BotC, information is key and any reason they might have to not claim is worth much less than the information they are the source of the drunkenness here.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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I actually forgot my role is a must and not a may so I didn't submit since the role is a little tricky to play wincon-wise (from my current wincon, it doesn't make sense for me to random choose people, since one could be a demon which is bad for my current wincon, even if my wincon changes immediately, I am making the initial choice as a townie). Enchant just had my role do nothing, which technically shouldn't be allowed since, again, must not may, but I suppose it can be coded as just a self-target.In post 158, Vanderscamp wrote:
N1 target?In post 143, AniX wrote: Oh, I guess I should mention I'm (currently unflipped) Snake Charmer, so there is a non-0% chance Enchant would interpret that as "working for the forces of evil" since I COULD change alignments at some point, but if he did that I'd be pretty pissed with that interpretation to be honest. At any rate, I'm not really a huge town asset anyway so no big loss killing me today.Official Gimmick List:
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And 1 times out of 7 I completely switch alignments and never reveal that info to town. I am very risk-adverse when it comes to Snake Charmer.In post 171, atsi wrote:
This makes no sense. Randomly checking someone is much better than doing nothing since 6 times out of 7 you gain very valuable info.In post 167, AniX wrote: I actually forgot my role is a must and not a may so I didn't submit since the role is a little tricky to play wincon-wise (from my current wincon, it doesn't make sense for me to random choose people, since one could be a demon which is bad for my current wincon, even if my wincon changes immediately, I am making the initial choice as a townie). Enchant just had my role do nothing, which technically shouldn't be allowed since, again, must not may, but I suppose it can be coded as just a self-target.Official Gimmick List:
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I think my wincon requires me to practice more care in taking that risk such that I don't make choices based on a whim, which is what a n1 choice would have been.Official Gimmick List:
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An awkwardness in converting BotC to Mafia is the increased wincon burden. BotC is not designed to be played competitively in the way we do Mafia and as such, while you obviously aren't supposed to deliberately sabotage your team, playing Snake Charmer as a sort of "I am going to play this neutral because at any time I could switch teams" is a valid playstyle. The rules of competitive mafia, and particularly the rules of the site, make that sort of playstyle a bit murkier. I am currently town. Me converting to Demon does not help town, which I am obligated to help to the fullest of my ability right now.Official Gimmick List:
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Well, once the Demon reveals himself, I have a different wincon and I wouldn't want that to happen. Snake Charmer is not really a role I would put in this game because it puts me in a weird position where anything I do will produce results that will hurt my wincon when that result happens, but it is in the game, I have the role, and I have to navigate how it interacts with wincon requirements.Official Gimmick List:
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It hurts the town because all information, reads, etc. go out the window because two alignments just flipped. The game moves to everyone suspecting everyone else. A flipped Snake Charmer produces chaos and just by process of elimination tends to happen later in the game and thus produces more chaos. The town is better served by me being a vanilla townie than someone who explodes the town on a 1/7, then 1/6, then 1/5, etc. etc.Official Gimmick List:
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Yes, information is important, which is why it is just that much more important to not turn the entire information circle upside down in latestage game.Official Gimmick List:
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I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove here though. I am telling people to vote me, you are already voting me, I am voting for myself, there is no role in the game that triggers ill effects if an evil player dies by execution. There isn't really much value in debating whether you would play the role in a different way than I am.Official Gimmick List:
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Like if you think I'm lying about being Snake Charmer, we should be killing me. If you think I am actually the Snake Charmer, we should still be killing me.Official Gimmick List:
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It explodes the town by rendering all previous information potentially moot because an alignment/role shift has occurred. Flower Girls and Two Crier math no longer works, Clockmakers are irrelevant, Dreamers/Seamstresses have to start over/lose out if they are dead, Savants don't know if what they were told still is accurate, Artists might lose any value from their question depending on what they asked...Official Gimmick List:
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You can vote freely for anyone already currently nominated (which is just me), just remember you cannot remove your vote once cast. Or you can use your one nomination of the day to nominate someone new.In post 185, Infinity 324 wrote:
so? i don't get what you're saying here, if you're just playing to the town wincon while you have a town role, swapping alignments isn't a disaster and the risk seems well well worth it. if you're playing to try to win the game, which is probably what i would do, it's even less bad to swap alignments because you're just playing a normal game as scum with town down 1 pr.In post 178, AniX wrote: Well, once the Demon reveals himself, I have a different wincon and I wouldn't want that to happen.
if we're agreeing to lim anix here, we can try to maximize flowergirl and town crier. though i'm not sure if you can actually vote without nominating? that would make things more complicatedOfficial Gimmick List:
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Is it your view a Minion would immediately encourage themselves to be executed when there are a number of still in play ways to discredit Nurse? If I was actually a minion, I'd have liked to have thought I'd have just stopped in my "well, not a tiny chance, here's why". What benefit does Minion-me derive from dying right now?Official Gimmick List:
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Because an open Snake Charmer is a town distraction, the town will never fully trust me because every day could be a possible flip AND I have an open guilty result on me that is yet unexplained. It is better to eliminate me now, remove the distraction, and move on, especially when there doesn't seem to be much other information to go on.Official Gimmick List:
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I really have to remind you that 1. There is 1/4 chance of Vortox 2. Artist is an attractive role for PhilosopherIn post 233, Random Nurse wrote:In post 232, Vanderscamp wrote:
I understand that, you saying that probably means that you're not reading mine.In post 231, Random Nurse wrote: If you were reading my posts you'd know I'm the Artist that got a guilty on Anix.
I believe he is. As stated before it's highly unlikely I was targeted Night 1 to be Drunk or Poisoned.Official Gimmick List:
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That isn't to say I think we shouldn't kill me, mind you.
Vote: End the DayOfficial Gimmick List:
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I believe people want to set up a few people for testing in case there is a Town Crier/FlowergirlOfficial Gimmick List:
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There is a possibility there is Town Crier or Flower Girl, who benefits from having some but not all of the town nominate/vote so they can slim down possible pools.Official Gimmick List:
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Nom: Infinity 324Official Gimmick List:
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Yes, the first NK will happen tonight.Official Gimmick List:
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Barring something weird like the Demon sinks a nightkill for some reason.Official Gimmick List:
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AniX NoneUCalledNone
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Correct. I (and everyone else who dies) can play exactly the same as I was before in every aspect except the following ways:
- We can no longer post in our hoods, we can only communicate publicly
- I no longer have my ability
- I cannot nominate
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Alright, with TWO people independently getting wrong information, I'm ready to say we have a Vortox game.
We SHOULD be able to prove it relatively soon, since Infinity got a Minion flip on me and there is only one Minion, all with unique abilities that can't really be faked, and I know its not me. Twin should already have revealed itself, so probably not that. Pit Hag is POSSIBLE and we'll know today unless Pit Hag guessed an in-play role twice/targeted themselves or Demon twice. Novis could novislock (target the same person over and over) and we'll never know but other than that, we should get someone being like "I was made mad yesterday" today. I think Witch is probably the most likely, especially since there was low nom counts yesterday.
HPE should probably claim.Official Gimmick List:
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Please note that the Vigormortis ability only works if THEY kill the Minion, so if we see any Minion ability happening going forward, it cannot be me and both Nurse and Infinity's info is wrong.
Also the only neighbor they share now dead which is really useful since it eliminates No Dashii as the cause of both wrong.Official Gimmick List:
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People with spent abilities/abilities that we can afford to lose should all nominate today to witch test.Official Gimmick List:
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No, he's saying the Mod lied to you about your Artist ability because the demon is a Vortox who forces the mod to lie to literally everyone on all results.In post 311, Random Nurse wrote:In post 306, atsi wrote:
They just said they think there's a Vortox.In post 304, Random Nurse wrote: Uh huh. So you're claiming I lied as the Artist or that I was somehow made Drunk or Poisoned, and you're saying Anix wasn't working for the forces of Evil?
I highly doubt that. You're either the Minion or the Demon.
VOTE: Vanderscamp
He's basically saying that I lied about using my Artist ability on Anix (getting a guilty on Anix) and saying that "oh, both Scum still exist," so either he's saying my result was compromised by the Poison/Drunk ability or he's implying I lied, which I do NOT.Official Gimmick List:
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Yeah, Random is reading as town who just didn't bother to pay attention to the multiple times its been explained, whereas I feel like an actual Demon would be a bit more "I don't think it is a Vortox because..."In post 327, Vanderscamp wrote: I believe Random is probably town and the demon is between atsi/Hu Tao/Piggy, with not much discernible difference between the three atm, although I think atsi is the towniest among them.
At six alive with two evils alive if we kill incorrectly today we lose, so I'd just like to kill infinity today and move on
Infinity refusing to counter-claim Twin is super-interesting. Infinity, if you are the other Twin, for God's sake claim. We need to kill one of you or Vander to win. I know it may seem like a Good town play to not counter-claim. It is not. Every Twin game where the Good Twin doesn't claim I have seen is a game where town loses.Official Gimmick List:
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I believe so. If we vote to End the Day with nobody with enough votes to get executed, the day will end but nobody will be executed. That said, we should give Klutz as much time as possible to make their decision.Official Gimmick List:
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