Open 104 - The New C9 - Game Over

[Hitch]

The worst thing about 862 is that he asks who was on the wagon, as if he was going to look into those players. There was a count posted by the mod just a few pages back and he easily could have gone and gotten that info if he wanted in seconds.

There is simply no good reason to say, 'who was voting him?'

[norseman1066]

[comment]I've just spent some more time re-reading and I must say I agree with atack dog and Hitch about toning down our us vs. them (POG 2+2) vs. MS-ers split that has developed. [/comment]

I'm going to pass on people that are actually posting in thread due to their activity for the moment (except for a few that have posted a couple of times then disappeared.) Normally I'd cut low posters some slack but in a game such as this with very low actual posts the free rides for these people are over IMHO especially as it's day one

still

and they've had plenty of time to post. Lynch all AFK/Low posters is my motto for this game. :twistyed evil:

AFAIK well named is still in this game and has posted next to nothing. I believe this to be a tell on him that he is trying the old UTR Mafia trick as is a very good reason to vote him.

unvote: matrix---------vote Well Named

So who's with me???

[StrangerCoug]

[as an aside I do find it amusing that OMG got modkilled for using a certain word, when various other players in this game have used other profanities without recourse, it's odd how some words these days have become accepted, yet others have not, when not all that long ago any such expletives were all equally prohibited]

In my day you weren't modkilled for directing profanities at other players. You were warned or ejected and replaced.

AFAIK well named is still in this game and has posted next to nothing. I believe this to be a tell on him that he is trying the old UTR Mafia trick as is a very good reason to vote him.

What is the UTR Mafia trick?

[well-named]

Sup norse!

I've kinda been hoping we'd get to d2

[norseman1066]

U

nder

T

he

R

adar....... not very active and thus not drawing any attention. Very useful dodge for the Scum as they don't have to answer any questions nor post any useful info thus decreasing the probability they will make a mistake later on as there will be no/little to content to compare their posts to later on in the game.

[StrangerCoug]

I've heard of the phrase "under the radar" before; I just haven't seen it as an acronym. Thanks.

[The Fonz]

I disagree that arrogance isn't detrimental to the town because it clearly states that you're me before the town and in the end it's a town win not individual. We win if the town wins and throwing fellow townspeople under the bus is pretty damn scummy.

Explain where anyone has thrown you under the bus. Wall-E is arguing with you because you're fundamentally

wrong.

Now I love how you saying I can be patronized because to my recollection I don't seem to see anybody besides yourself and Wall-E ragging on me for being a newbie.

Again, we're not ragging on you for being a newbie, quite the opposite. What you're saying is stupid and misguided. A veteran player coming out with those kind of ridiculous arguments would be lynched for it.

So saying you (a collective you, meaning you and everyone else) are going to look down on me and judge me for it would be quite wrong.

Get that ridiculous chip off your shoulder. No one is looking down on you.

If anybody else thinks that a relatively unexperienced player like myself is really hurting this game and contributing nothing than you can speak up about it too. But if I do say so myself I've made a couple of pretty good points this game and I'm hanging in there with the rest so lay off on the "noobness", doesn't make much sense.

And those points you think are 'pretty good' I think are

terrible

, which is the crux of our disagreement. Again, I can put it down to you being new, and not really understanding mafia, or i can put it down to you being scum attacking people with crap arguments. Your call.

the idea that zhaorx's flippant comment ended the joke-vote phase. That's ridiculous.

Was his comment flippant though? Seemed serious enough to me.

Even if he really thinks those posts seemed forced (and I think I see where he's coming from), that doesn't mean he thinks it's a strong read or that all other random voting needs to stop while we decide whether zhaorx or those posters are scum.

Doesn't matter whether it's a 'strong' read. It matters whether it's a read at all. The tone of Zhaorx's post indicated that he felt those posts were genuinely scummy. ScottHoward's arguments about 'obviously wolfish posts by MS players' seem to support this reading. And, actually, I'd say people should stop random voting when there's something of substance. (Also, you've made an unwarranted logical leap there- no one is saying either Zhaorx or those other posters have to be scum, that's a false dichotomy- it's a genuine misunderstanding is a perfectly fine read on that situation). Now, if Zhaorx was actually joking, that's a different matter.

fonz, please look at how matrix got to be a wagon in the first place, because you say I'm letting others do the pushing, I don't think I cound have pushed any harder for a matrix wagon, I was also extremely vocal that OMG was a bad lynch.

I disagree. You could have pushed much, much harder. Seems to me like you pushed for a while, then gave up.

I know I suggested that we consolidate on wagons that included OMG's but that was because there was no way I was getting people to drop the hardon they had about OMG.

OK, why the other two? Does it benefit the town to narrow their focus like that? What if someone came out with an excellent case after a re-read?

I'm not overly concerned about votes for me, however bad they are.

In particular, Sun's post where he says he has an acurate scumtell on me, I can link you all to games played as recently as this week where he has thought I was scum and I was not. He thinks I am evil in EVERY single game we play.

Fair enough; Sun's secret scumtell has nothing to do with why I'm voting you. I'm voting you because you give the impression of consciously trying to fit into the middle of the pack.

hey all, just got in
omg was village? excellent work msers! excellent work! you guys are all so fucking smart
i will be interested in voting for everybody who had a lame excuse for voting omg. "because he voted for himself" is a lame excuse. hi walle!

He was modkilled for personal abuse, Dumbass.

OK guys, sorry I haven't posted the last two days... they were the last two days of my final, massively important placement, so I spent thursday working my ass off and friday celebrating. Anyway, back to the grind...

matrix. i will try

fonz, please give us youre thoughts on walle

To this point, he's made two posts. Two posts are not likely to produce anything on which I can give detailed 'thoughts'

though his OGML vote is... well, I wouldn't do it

, but I can understand it.

why wouldnt you do it? because its not good strategy? then why do you understand it?
its either good or bad, if it was good, you would do it. you didnt do it. it appears you disapprove of it. appears you view it as anti-town, yet no bad thoughts toward walle. odd.

He believed OMG's claim was sufficiently antitown that it made no sense as town, and addition was worthy of lynching under LAL. I didn't, because, well, I've seen OMG before, know he always acts like a complete tool, and preferred not to dwell on it.

Apparently it's a new revelation to you that people can legitimately disagree on mafia theory without that necessarily meaning they're of different alignments.

No town player should EVER say that they are vanilla. Saying 'my role is vanilla' = saying 'I am a vanilla townie' = claiming that role. Seriously, MS guys, I'm not wrong here, am i? If someone says 'I am vanilla' that is a claim.

no, youre absolutely right. my question for you is why havent you voted for or used the mighty fos on the msers who have essentially claimed village? why only matrix? you are being inconsistent with your retarted logic.

Essentially claimed village? You mean, indicated that they are town? Here's a newsflash for you, shit-for-brains, everyone tries to indicate they are part of the town. NOT ONE MSer has indicated that they have a particular town role (well, except for OMG). So your argument is completely retarded.

Despite the confrontational tone, Scott Howard made some very valid points I think Fonz should respond to.

Scott Howard is utterly full of shit, and says nothing of value.

The fact that OMG is a vanilla townie gives us information.

Who was on his wagon?

Doesn't really help, since it was a policy-lynch wagon.

On day one, whether it last 20 minutes in a POG turbo or a month in a mafiascum epic, just isn't ever going to be high on content. (Cue Fonz telling me that if I were a good scum hunter it would be; cue me not caring much about his opinion, but nevertheless watching to see what actually comes of all this.)

Yes and no. Often, looking back in retrospect at a day one with the knowledge of a couple of people's alignment, a lot of information can become available. And there's usually something better than random to lynch on.

Hence, my own scumhunting at this stage is tone-based, which makes it nigh on worthless in a game composed half of people whom I know and half pf people whose approach to the game is sufficiently different that I can't read them. And this in turn means I'm not expecting to contribute much to raising the likelihood of nailing a scum today. Deal with it; the game is won at the end, not on day one.

Meh, just because you can't find things doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

I'm pleased that OMG turned up vanilla, as I expected -- I doubt those who were trying to get him lynched will be at all chagrined. (After all, what he did was so anti-town, it had to be a scum tell...! Pshaw.)

Strawman. The argument is that people who do things that antitown are detrimental to the town, WHETHER OR NOT they are scum. That they might be is a bonus.

Fonz, but too often he either misses, or, I believe, ignores, critical differences -- see, e.g., his discussion of zhaorx's ending the joke vote period, and how reasonable [by MS standards] the resulting votes on him were, with no mention of the possibility -- which is true -- that zhaorx's reasons were fine by POG [which = 2p2] standards;

Did I ever say they were not? But the mafiascum players voted him in a manner which is completely reasonable for MS players (not to mention- the MS players didn't know there were a load of visitors coming from another site, and so were judging posts, reasonably, by MS standards).

Then the likes of Scotthoward just started personally abusing them, which is unacceptable. If the POG guys had reacted reasonably, then we could have gotten things moving with a real discussion of expectations on both sites, and so on. But it didn't happen.

Basically, I feel like I'm bending over backwards to understand and accommodate the POGers, whilst ScottHoward is making no effort to understand how mafia is played here. If you don't want to do that, then fuck off.

am I the only person here who really has no clue what OMG was trying with regard to his early role claim??

No, no-one knows. That play makes no sense for town, but then, OMG is known for thinking he knows better.

[Hitch]

OK, why the other two? Does it benefit the town to narrow their focus like that? What if someone came out with an excellent case after a re-read?

If someone comes out with a solid case then great, but as far as I could see, everyone had had a chance to make their case, and after we had, the votes from people decided that the three lynch candidates with >1 vote were the viable wagons.

By having strong consolidated wagons, we force the scum to pick between them, not leave their vote stranded on someone that was never gonna fly, and in so doing give us their votes to analyse down the line.

[The Fonz]

I don't see the need unless there's a pressing deadline.

(Plus, we still need about 5 replacements, without whom it will be very hard to get an absolute majority).

[hewitt]

Alright while I thank you for your delightful insights Fonz I don't really care too much.

Moving on there are people I can forgetting are in this game oEJo and Mada. I even forget about SiestaGuru but he really doesn't post that infrequently, I think it's just something about the name I forget. And is Stef still in this game?

For right now I really don't see much reason to believe well-named is attempting to fly under the radar, if anybody I'd believe oEJo and Mada are unless they're attempting to be replaced or something.

[Hitch]

there's no pressing deadline, but what's the reason not to do it? Unless you are suggesting just waiting for the replacements to come in and see what they have to say? Because if that's not it then everyone has had all the time in the world to make their cases.

[The Fonz]

And they have plenty of time left to do so, so why constrain them unnecessarily?

[norseman1066]

That's the bottom line here isn't it? Not enough posters to make a majority and get this thing moving to day 2 unless everyone that is actually here and posting consolidates on one bandwagon. That was my main reason for voting matrix....not that I thought he was 100% scum just the most likely of the three wagons. I'm still of the opinion that Well named is in UTR mode right now but it is not to say that other people aren't in that mode either. Atak has been posting but upon a reread there is nothing that stands out as really really townie about the posts but he's not really twiggin the Mafia Radar yet either. I'd suggest watching him closely over the next few 'days' depending on when/if this ever gets to d2 and beyond.

I'm for consolidation but hitch isn't the one I'd be willing to vote for at this time. I'll leave my vote where it is for now and see if the well named wagon gets some traction or not. If it doesn't in the very short term I'll move to a wagon that has more chance of ending in a lynch sooner rather than later.

My 2 cents FWIW

[The Fonz]

We have nineteen alive. Three have requested replacement. So, we need ten of the remaining sixteen to agree to one wagon if we want to lynch before the replacements come.

I have no problem, incidentally, with people ranking the leading wagons in order of preference, saying which ones they think are worthy, which they'd be willing to follow at deadline, and which they are definitively opposed to. But a wagon can build up fairly fast, as shown by the Hitch wagon itself, so I don't see why players should be forced to compromise if they still see mileage in a different case.

@ Norse: Can you remind us of what your case on well-named is?

[Hitch]

fonz, by that rational D1 would never end in majority, because doing so constrains posters unnecessarily.

[M1KEMMIEMIEMKEMIKE]

I am giving matrix village points for his waffling on the Hitch vote.

[The Fonz]

That's craplogic- a complete nonsequitur. Town players will naturally drift towards a wagon that is viable over one which is not, unless there are no viable wagons with which that player is comfortable, and obviously that process will accelerate if a game is deadlined. It doesn't need you, at some arbitrary point, to say 'Right, these happen to be the leading wagons RIGHT NOW, we need to choose between them' when there's no time pressure, and one or two people switching could mean we have a new 'viable wagon.' As actually happened.

[atakdog]

He was modkilled for personal abuse,

Dumbass

.

...

Essentially claimed village? You mean, indicated that they are town? Here's a newsflash for you,

shit-for-brain

s, everyone tries to indicate they are part of the town. NOT ONE MSer has indicated that they have a particular town role (well, except for OMG). So your argument is completely retarded.

...

Scott Howard is utterly full of shit

, and says nothing of value.

...

Then the likes of Scotthoward just started

personally abusing them, which is unacceptable

. If the POG guys had reacted reasonably, then we could have gotten things moving with a real discussion of expectations on both sites, and so on. But it didn't happen.

Basically, I feel like I'm bending over backwards to understand and accommodate the POGers

, whilst ScottHoward is making no effort to understand how mafia is played here. If you don't want to do that, then fuck off.

Sigh. Very good thing someone's bending over backwards.

[The Fonz]

Strawman, atak. I did my damnedest, not to make it us vs them, and Scott just continued with the moronic arguments and personal abuse. WHICH MAKES ME FUCKING ENRAGED. Sorry if i can't be civil to a person who has demonstrated himself to not only be a bad mafia player but a truly awful human being.

[atakdog]

By having strong consolidated wagons, we force the scum to pick between them, not leave their vote stranded on someone that was never gonna fly, and in so doing give us their votes to analyse down the line.

Hitch, have you read any of the no-time-limit, majority lynch only POG games? My impression therefrom, which comports with my theoretical view, is that bandwagon consolidation is not really important in this format -- everyone has to make an obvious, visible choice as majority approaches. In fact, it may be beneficial to avoid prematures consolidation, as more data will be available down the road if more wagons gain and lose life.

[hewitt]

We have nineteen alive. Three have requested replacement. So, we need ten of the remaining sixteen to agree to one wagon if we want to lynch before the replacements come.

I have no problem, incidentally, with people ranking the leading wagons in order of preference, saying which ones they think are worthy, which they'd be willing to follow at deadline, and which they are definitively opposed to. But a wagon can build up fairly fast, as shown by the Hitch wagon itself, so I don't see why players should be forced to compromise if they still see mileage in a different case.

@ Norse: Can you remind us of what your case on well-named is?

I'm not going to rank the wagons because frankly, I don't think that's a good idea considering the only one I feel fairly confident voting in is Wall-E. So as of right now my one and only wagon I'm sticking with is Wall-E.

[atakdog]

Strawman, atak. I did my damnedest, not to make it us vs them, and Scott just continued with the moronic arguments and personal abuse. WHICH MAKES ME FUCKING ENRAGED. Sorry if i can't be civil to a person who has demonstrated himself to not only be a bad mafia player but a truly awful human being.

Fonz: Scott is difficult, and he's being more difficult than usual. Your reaction is understandable... but it's also anti-town. As long as Scott is playing in this game (and he is), keeping dialog with him as civil as possible is best for the cause, whether he does his part or not. (Also, he has by no means demonstrated himself to be a bad player -- you're just not seeing yet, nor having an open mind to, what he can do. He is without question the most skilled of the POGgers now playing, and your failure to accept that this may be true and that behind the regrettable tirades is the ability, which can be teased out, to break the game open, is disappointing.)

Adults are civil even to those they see as children. Good mafia players are civil even to those they think are bad, if being so would help the cause. So if you could please stop being "FUCKING ENRAGED", the town would appreciate it.

-----------------
Scott: Cut it out. Play mafia. If you really want to demonstrate your superiority, break the game (or own as mafia), and

then

laugh about how pathetic you think MSers are. Meanwhile, chill with the name calling. At this point everyone knows how you feel; your insistence on saying it is making it difficult for people to hear the signal through the static.

[norseman1066]

I'm going to pass on people that are actually posting in thread due to their activity for the moment (except for a few that have posted a couple of times then disappeared.) Normally I'd cut low posters some slack but in a game such as this with very low actual posts the free rides for these people are over IMHO especially as it's day one

still

and they've had plenty of time to post. Lynch all AFK/Low posters is my motto for this game. :twistyed evil:

AFAIK well named is still in this game and has posted next to nothing. I believe this to be a tell on him that he is trying the old UTR Mafia trick as is a very good reason to vote him.

unvote: matrix---------vote Well Named

So who's with me???

The bolded part is what you must have missed Fonz in your reading of the thread.

[well-named]

It's a little strange that norse thinks that UTR is a "tell" on me given that

a) We haven't played more than a couple of games together
b) I don't think I was mafia, let alone UTR, in any of them.

Obviously UTR-ness is a generic scum-tell in and of itself but the phrasing is supposed to suggest that it's particularly valid for me, which I don't think is correct.

Someone that knows norse can comment on whether this is the standard kind of d1 vote he is apt to make, I have no idea.

[ScottHoward]

Hey
My first post today was going to be a peace offering to the fonz, but now that I saw his latest post, fuck him.
I KEED!! I KEED!!!

Seriously though, my intent was to come in and play nice, for however long im here. So consider that the case.

Any questioning from this point forward will be with the intent of finding scum, no matter who im questioning, so do not take it personally. I wont be calling anybody anything other than town or scum.

Any discussions/arguments on what is or is not scummy, will be to try find scum and not an exercise in demonstrating who (which site) plays better.
Atak, youre so sweet. But you should have changed “most skilled pogger playing” to “most skilled pogger eva”

Fonz, the first game atak and I played, iirc, he had a very similar reaction as you are having. We just didn’t have the extra fuel due to the site differences, so hes not blowing smoke up your ass.

Peace offered