Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Do you not TR our mystery alt?

I wasn't really satisfied with his answer about T3 earlier, and it didn't seem like there was any more to get out of him if I'd kept pressing. If he'd given me a more satisfactory answer at the time I was going to heal him. Recent posting looked good as well when I was catching up, but maybe fakeable ("scum would not try to get into the coalition but would try to not let a coalition pass"). As a whole his ISO leaves me with questions though.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like looking at Appearance's ISO (looking at T3s now and seeing him quoting Appearance) I don't really see reasoning for the reads he's put out. Aside from more "naked" reads/heals, I see posts about what scum might be doing, but no conclusions are drawn about who is doing that and therefore who is scum. And I see multiple "I'll read later" kind of posts which generally can be ignored but this is a very slow game so seeing more than one of those kinda bothers me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

T3 is just lacking though... I get why 14 gets TRed early on in the game but it doesn't go far up from there. When he brings up a point on his own, it seems like it's to do with implosion. He replies with thoughts about others but it seems

T3's

focus is implo:

I keep thinking this game is 7 players

there's also a part of me that wants to call this post like, really hard town for being the kind of thing scum would be very unlikely to genuinely think (because they have a scumbuddy they're interacting with/are probably more self-conscious about stuff) and also extremely unlikely to come up with the idea of faking

implosion is constantly saying things I agree with but I don't know if that makes him town.

He starts with this, which seems reasonable enough. I know some people hesitate to TR groupthink because it's an easy pitfall, but T3 is obvious about hesitating about it.

implosion’s reasoning for reads so far has resonated with me and i don’t think anything feels forced (which i think is more important in this setup because wolves want to sneak in at least one of them)

Agreed although iirc he's good at faking that as scum

This post a day later is still non-committal about implo - seems like T3 is hedging that implo is town but is always keeping the door open to scum!implo

I've reread through the game but I really don't have much to say

I'm interested in trying to work out a coalition but I'm struggling to find reads...

Nearly everything I have to say feels like a massive reach

(this is 3 posts sandwiched to 1 quote)
T3 has done a reread now and despite being 'interested in trying to work out a coalition' the read he does come back with is yet another on implosion. A scumread - conveniently by this point the thread state (DE, Klick, DV) seems to agree implo is scum here

This is not the point I'm making. In 46, you say that we should focus scumreads more than townreads because focusing townreads lets scum blend in. At the same time, you say Appearance is town and so far all he'd done was give out 2 unexplained TRs. If you think scum blends in by focusing on TRs, you don't also think that Appearance is town. You're claiming to have one philosophy on how to play the setup that contradicts your reads.

I don't like this post/line of logic. It feels less like a misrep (i actually don't like dragoneater calling it a misrep) and more like it's reductive, like if Dragoneater claims to have a particular philosophy that he mentioned then that philosophy doesn't necessarily underrun everything that he thinks. It's lacking in consideration imo as a reason to scumread dragoneater (and it does look like kyouko is scumreading dragoneater).

This seems like disingenuous scum

I feel like the 'reread' is possibly an excuse to now SR the popular SR now that town!implo doesn't seem to be on the table anymore.

More specifically I think implosion is experienced enough to know that questionable/reductive reasoning isn't necessarily an indicator of scum and that DE (one of his townreads) is doing the same thing

This I think is good reasoning. I could see it as a bus, hoping to get pulled into the coalition by agreeing his buddy is scum (but not just 'agreeing' - by 'rereading' and finding a different reason to SR implo it looks less like sheeping). I can see the possibility that T3 is town here and is really just having a hard time finding any TRs, but right now that's what's needed to form a coalition. If he is town he needs to step into gear with that.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I see a lot of reasons why T3 could be scum with implo, but not necessarily anything to make me SR him individually. 14 is towny but past that I'm not convinced by anything, bar maybe 381. 381 is kind of poisoned by the fact that scum!T3 could be bussing Implo though. I want to see a coalition, or townreads, from T3. Or just more detailed reads on people that aren't implosion

[Klick]

Kyouko you are pointing out the difference between me talking about something I already have an opinion on vs me talking about something that I've just thought about
I already have opinions on DV because I know DV well and I know he's likely to think about things in a 'I thought that too' sort of way
When I'm talking about other stuff I'm learning as I go

[Elements]

Oh I forgot I wasn't healing them



I think it's clear what I meant to do

HURT: all
HEAL: Elements, Ydra, Dragon, Appearance

I don't really see kyo as town here
I'd prefer Klick to Appearance and Kyo
and I think I prefer DV to appearance

[DragonEater70]

Mhmmmm

People are bullying me into staying faithful for my page 6 solve.

I can do it, just don't tell me later "Dragon is using the same rhetoric as Hero at Heart of 'this is the coalition and all of your opinions don't matter' and is putting his townreads above scrutiny", because I am CLEARLY not using such a rhetoric.

[DragonEater70]

Elements did you read my and Kyo's reasons for doubting Klick/DV?

[DragonEater70]

For the last time (hopefully),
HURT: all

Whoever I heal from now on will remain healed forever and ever.

[DragonEater70]

Kyouko you are pointing out the difference between me talking about something I already have an opinion on vs me talking about something that I've just thought about
I already have opinions on DV because I know DV well and I know he's likely to think about things in a 'I thought that too' sort of way
When I'm talking about other stuff I'm learning as I go

Which post of Kyo's is this in reference to?

[DragonEater70]

Elements, can you explain why Kyo isn't town here?

[Elements]

Elements did you read my and Kyo's reasons for doubting Klick/DV?

not the dv one
klick just feels very town to me

[Elements]

Elements, can you explain why Kyo isn't town here?

until today she hasn't felt invest in this game at all
as a lesser point, she hasn't done any mechanical analysis of the setup either

I be looking too much into it, but I read though this pt from red!kyo and can see this sort of thing going on behind the veil for a red!kyo this game

[DragonEater70]

Oh yeah I forgot that game has FINALLY ended and I'm actually allowed to say what I'm basing my metareads on Kyo now

I agree that she hasn't felt invested which is usually a scumtell of hers, but her recent posts feel are just a perfect mindmeld with what I am thinking and I just really want to mindmeld with them.

[DragonEater70]

I just want to TR them*

[DragonEater70]

What specifically from that PT can ypu see here?

[Klick]

The thing is they're a mindmeld of thoughts

you had already posted in the thread

and theoretical Kyouko!scum has playing on those exact expressed thoughts as a clear route to not-losing

[Klick]

Kyouko you are pointing out the difference between me talking about something I already have an opinion on vs me talking about something that I've just thought about
I already have opinions on DV because I know DV well and I know he's likely to think about things in a 'I thought that too' sort of way
When I'm talking about other stuff I'm learning as I go

Which post of Kyo's is this in reference to?

Mostly 447, but more specifically just the idea that I'm talking differently in certain situations (like about DV) compared to others

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Anything in particular speaking to you yet, DV?

I agree with the general sentiment that T3 is more likely town.

that is all i've got right now

This post I think is characteristic of what you're describing Klick. DV is being "agreeable" here. He says "I agree" and doesn't state it like it was his original thought.

tbh i'm scared of scum distancing in this setup.

this was actually something I was thinking too.

Was it klick/dragoneater that pinged you as a potential distance as well, or more of a general fear?

This, imo, is different than agreeing. "I think so too", or "I agree" do not make it look like DV had this thought before Appearance posted it. This verbiage makes it seem that DV was thinking this

before

Appearance posted.

As for my read on Klick, he feels like he's not trying to be TR'd at all (unless he is playing a game of "let's pocket Dragon and get null'd by everybody else", which if it is the case then I wish him luck with that since idk how far it will get him), and I think that makes him pretty towny.

who do you think is trying to do that then?

he hasn’t posted a lot so i struggle to see how someone can very comfortably make that call i guess. there’s a part of me that thinks he could be playing a clever wolf game based on how he treated you by like… kind of uno carding you. i don’t know how likely this is but i felt it was possible, and if he was doing something like that he’s now got someone in his court without much loss. with what looks like recent history it makes sense to me that he might want to capitalize on that when presented with the chance, etc

implo is trying very hard to be TR'd.

So… this was actually my exact thought.

I think I might have been wrong on my read of you

The same language - using the past tense to show he was thinking this

before

Dragon posted it.

I liked how Elements mentioned having the thought of not wanting to be in the coalition

because that's a thought that I had early on as well

.

Which I know is unfortunately not necessarily a reason to think someone is town, but something I have been thinking about is how scum would want to position themselves in/out of the coalition etc. It's probably premature to think too much about that but.

~snip~

I believe this is in reference to 254 (snipped):

I went into this game from a perspective of thinking it would be unlikely we'd get a coalition win so if I wasn't in the coalition that puts me in a position to see a 1/5 and a 1/2 or a 2/5 which I think benefits town to solve.

Again I did not see any indication that DV had thought this yet, and here he is once again saying he thought of this before.

I struggle to get anything conclusive from T3 or Kyouko on this
I'm curious if {DragonEater, DV, Elements, Ydrasse} have thoughts on this

I feel the same as you re: Ydrasse, T3 and Kyouko

Now this is also, like the first post, an example of DV being agreeable like Klick says.

that was my pet theory too, though I'm not confident in it

This one, I'm willing to believe town!DV could have been thinking this before Klick posted 352, given the content of DV's 351 it's not a stretch.

When DV is "agreeable", he's always talking to Klick.
When he's mentioned "I thought that too" (or similar past tense verbiage) he was talking to Elements, Dragon, and Appearance.

So uh, maybe he doesn't feel the need to pocket his buddy the same way as Elements/Dragon/Appearance

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Kyouko you are pointing out the difference between me talking about something I already have an opinion on vs me talking about something that I've just thought about
I already have opinions on DV because I know DV well and I know he's likely to think about things in a 'I thought that too' sort of way
When I'm talking about other stuff I'm learning as I go

I don't really buy this - that's what prompted 468, I'd been reading your ISO and it didn't seem like a difference between already having an opinion and a more current thought process. I think if you do know DV that well it's possible he's taking advantage of that if you're being truthful in 454, I just don't see evidence of that in your posting and I think it's an excuse to cover for scum!DV

[ssbm_Kyouko]

so yeah 468 shows DV is not "agreeable" in this game, rather he's claiming he's already had the same thoughts that others have had before others posted them, in what I think is a clear but subtle attempt to pocket those "others".

[DeasVail]

so yeah 468 shows DV is not "agreeable" in this game, rather he's claiming he's already had the same thoughts that others have had before others posted them, in what I think is a clear but subtle attempt to pocket those "others".

Is there evidence from any of my posting that supports me having already had the thought, rather than it being a pocket attempt?

[Klick]

I think if DV was trying to pocket people he'd be capable of something a lot more compelling than 'I also thought that thing'.

[Klick]

Meanwhile, I think your increase in vigor is indicative of seeing that you have a chance and taking it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Elements, can you explain why Kyo isn't town here?

until today she hasn't felt invest in this game at all
as a lesser point, she hasn't done any mechanical analysis of the setup either

I be looking too much into it, but I read though this pt from red!kyo and can see this sort of thing going on behind the veil for a red!kyo this game

I have more time for this game now than I did last week - there were several deadlines I had to make, and now this game approaches a deadline and I have/make more time for it.

I also didn't feel that invested because people mostly shot down the main read I had which was that Dragon was being inconsistent early on. I'd sort of resigned myself to playing this game from a "post-failed coalition" standpoint. It's what I did last time I played this setup as well. I butt heads with a SR early on, people didn't listen to me, then out of spite I ended up passing a coalition of 4 TRs plus my all-game SR and we won because I was wrong on my all-game SR.

This morning, I was sitting at the table checking this game on my phone, catching up and gearing up to pull quotes from DV on my PC later to show what I meant in 360, and 361 sort of bolstered my interest in the game. Like yesterday I noticed DV's 353 and I was like "I feel like I keep hearing this from him, that doesn't seem right to me" - that kickstarted my engagement here.

And I haven't done mech here because I've played the setup before a long time ago and I know it (mech spec) doesn't really go anywhere.

I am kinda curious what sort of thing you think is going on behind the veil though