Normal Game Changes (New Year 2024 Update)

[TemporalLich]

to be clear, would a Willbooster make an action succeed despite protection (e.g. from Ascetic or Rolestopper?)

if so, that would actually be a Strengthener.

[TemporalLich]

yeah I do want some sort of form to submit role proposals to potentially be on the Experimental Role List

[TemporalLich]

would a Gunsmith see guns on a Modifier Cop, an Inventor capable of giving a power that counts as having a gun, and someone holding an invention that counts as having a gun?

Modifier Cop is a Role Cop variant, and Inventor can give out role powers. The interaction of Inventor being able to millerize someone to a Gunsmith might be undesirable, however.

I'd also assume Inventors should only be able to give inventions that are allowed in Complex Normal games for any alignment (e.g. no Friendly Neighbor or Juggernaut inventions in Normal games, though a Vigilante invention should be fine)

[TemporalLich]

yeah I agree, Multitasking should still be a modifier in Complex Normal games (and inherent multitasking should still be allowed as a rule)

[TemporalLich]

I feel Multitasking is the established name for the modifier that allows you to perform more than one action during the night. I really don't want to rename Multitasking as a modifier just because Inherent Multitasking, which doesn't work the same as giving everyone Multitasking (I would call a rule that gave everyone Multitasking "Universal Multitasking") is a common rule in games.

If a new name is really needed for the "You may perform more than one action during the night." modifier, I'll suggest

Simultaneous

or

Supercharged

.

I do kind of like the name

Simultaneous

for true multitasking as opposed to normal multitasking though, and it likely will be useful to have the two similar but different concepts have a different name.

[TemporalLich]

I still consider a modifier with the ability text "You may use multiple abilities during the night." a modifier. It can't really stand alone except in the case of Inventors, and that logic could also apply to someone with only the Loyal modifier and no role.

I would call that modifier

Simultaneous

, though having a variant of Simultaneous that groups roles together similarly to Combined (and the non-Normal modifier known as Split) is an interesting idea.



I also want to propose the name

Warden

for Role Guard, as role guard might be thought of as role bodyguard instead of role security guard, or a role that prevents role changes.

[TemporalLich]

Simultaneous sounds like you must use all abilities together

Idk any other good names for the Multitasking modifier except for maybe

Supercharged

if there are no other options.

[TemporalLich]

My ideas for renaming the potentially renamed roles would be

Boss

for Godfather and

Reckless

for Macho.

also I don't think Backup Godfather should be Normal (and I don't think Backup Godfather is Normal, as Godfather can't be modified in Normal games)

[TemporalLich]

I think having an official alias for

Godfather

seems to be a good compromise.

The role name is iconic, though

Don

is also a good role name.

As for

Macho

, I'd say

Reckless

should be an official alias but that's only because there seems to be no consensus on a good alternate name for Macho.

[TemporalLich]

Stubborn

seems like an okay name... still prefer

Reckless

though.

Brave is what I call the conceptual opposite to Weak, as in a modifier that protects a player that targets a non-town player from kills.

[TemporalLich]

I think if you're creating a new name for Godfather it should be about the fact that it gives false negatives. Names like Don and Boss don't really make sense; it's not in charge.

Would something like

Covert

or

Discreet

work for that purpose?

[TemporalLich]

How exactly does action detector work? Is it like detective but for all types of actions?

action detector gets both a reporter and an inspector check

action detector results would be something like this:

negative / negative result - {player} has not acted and has not been targeted by anyone else
positive / negative result - {player} has acted, but has not been targeted by anyone else
negative / positive result - {player} has not acted, but has been targeted by someone else
positive / positive result - {player} has acted and has been targeted by someone else



a role that checks if a player has ever attempted to use an active ability is not a role with a name yet: perhaps that role could be named

Executive

?

[TemporalLich]

a role that checks if a player has ever attempted to use an active ability is not a role with a name yet: perhaps that role could be named

Executive

?

good idea imo

added Executive to the wiki lol

[TemporalLich]

I kinda feel 21 is a reasonable cap for normal game size

though that's because 21 is the largest a Simple Normal game can be, as 16 Town and 5 Mafia is a valid Simple Normal alignment ratio

19 is also a good reasonable cap but that would mean 21 player Simple Normal games would need to be ran as Large Themes

[TemporalLich]

Is Juggernaut-Immune Bulletproof Townie possible in Complex games?

very much so as the presence of a juggernaut/strongman is not necessarily guaranteed nor required against a bulletproof. what's more concerning is the existence of the infinite shot BP on a townie. complex allows some level of nonsense like this.

This makes me wonder how the Immune role actually works in Normal games

For example, I wonder how Juggernaut-Immune Doctor would work? Would it be a Doctor immune to Juggernaut kills (and only Juggernaut kills) or would it be a Doctor that can protect from Juggernaut kills (thus making Immune actually work like a modifier in this case)? I assume the former as Immune is a role and not a modifier.

[TemporalLich]

that being said, if Normal games really needed a role with juggernaut protection I'd go with the Enchanter from BooneyToonz

pedit: yeah that is what I assumed with role-immune being a role

[TemporalLich]

Ninja-Immune would be even less resolvable: you'd either have a marginally powerful and extremely nuanced role that would require a Watcher to show its true potential or you'd have a very nuanced role similar to Juggernaut-Immune that would be immune to a modified factional kill but not the standard factional kill (and it would still be a question on whether that attempted kill would be Watchable or not).

it depends on if you interpret Factional Kill Modifier Role-Immune as immune to the modified factional kill or only the modifiers applied to that kill

[TemporalLich]

if Factional Kill Modifier Role-Immune could work as applying only to the modifiers on the kill (as per DragonEater70's interpretation in 158) you'd have a case for Modifier-Immune roles existing such as Strong-Willed-Immune, Weak-Immune, and Stealthy-Immune

I would say going that far is beyond questionably Normal and goes toward "Who told you this was Normal?" territory

[TemporalLich]

Well the thing is that Juggernaut isn't a modifier, it's a passive role (usually modified with the "activated" modifier). So Role-Immune can be immune to passive roles (for example, you could have an Ascetic-Immune Cop if you wanted), but you can't have an Immune that's immune to modifiers such as weak. At least that's my understanding per the wiki page, which I believe was created by the NRG.

Juggernaut and Ninja are currently considered active roles as far as I know.

I call those two roles the factional kill modifier roles because they work by modifying the factional kill.

I do want more factional kill modifier roles added to Complex Normal games however.

The factional kill modifier roles I think could be Complex Normal roles:

Enforcer - Combines the factional kill with a roleblock. Works well against roleblockers and security guards.
Racketeer - Combines the factional kill with a rolestop. Works well against doctors and watchers.
Vaporizer - Combines the factional kill with both a roleblock and a rolestop (alien ability).
Wraith - Is allowed to commute when performing the factional kill. Extremely powerful and would even stop an Enchanter from blocking them.

If there are any other factional kill modifier roles you think could be Complex Normal roles, I'd want to add them to the wiki.



as for derived roles being derived from modifiers - I'm not actually sure that derived roles can be derived from modifiers. Modifier-Finder would be straightforward if it was given a modifier to look for, Modifier-Enabler might be considered confusing as some may interpret Modifier-Enabler as enabling the modified role instead of just the modifier, and Modifier-Immune would create confusing and unresolvable roles.

[TemporalLich]

factional kill modifier roles walk the line between active and passive

Having them be active roles makes more intuitive sense and avoids the problem of having to specify Activated Juggernaut or Activated Ninja to avoid the niche interaction of being unable to perform an unmodified factional kill (oh and factional kill modifier roles if they were considered passive roles would be the type of role where X-shot does not imply Activated!)

pedit: pretty sure "Each Night, if no other member of your faction is performing the factional kill action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will perform the factional kill. This action cannot be blocked or protected from." would imply that two juggernauts doesn't equal two super kills (if you really wanted two mafia super kills, strong-willed vigilante is what you're looking for)

ppedit: the problem with Juggernaut-Immune is that there's no real intuitively correct interpretation - I would think the intuitively correct interpretation of Juggernaut-Immune would be someone immune to Juggernaut kills completely.

[TemporalLich]

Normalize the best friend role

thoughts?

I have made a wiki page for the Best Friend role

I am unsure if Best Friend has been used in at least two games hence its role status is currently Untested (the Known role status is for roles that have been used in at least two games and/or are Normal in any capacity).

[TemporalLich]

if we include the interations where it was made with the informed modifier that's 3 games

there must've been a theme with it but i'm sadly not enough of a site veteran to know

I'd rather not, as there is a small but not insignificant difference between Best Friends and players with the Informed role that know "You are informed that {player} is aligned with the

Town

, and are informed that {player} is

Informed

about you in the same way you are informed of {player}."

Best Friends would flip as Best Friends, confirming the nature of the information received but not the specific information. An Informed player would simply flip as Informed, giving no information to the information that was received.

Likewise, a difference in the flip applies to Companion as opposed to an Informed player who knows "You are informed that {player} is aligned with the

Town

." - Companions flip as Companions, confirming they know someone is aligned with the Town, while an Informed player flips as Informed.

[TemporalLich]

What is Best Friend’s “neighbor” counterpart aka you know X player has a similar role but not the alignment and there’s no communication channel?

As in the role that is to Best Friend as Coworker is to Mason?

or simply a role that forms a group with no meaningful information and doesn't give PT access?

[TemporalLich]

The latter

I'm not sure the utility of such a role...

I don't think that concept has a name yet but I'd suggest the name

Groupie

.

[TemporalLich]

I guess “no meaningful information” is not accurate to my idea
I’ll message you on discord about what I’m thinking if you’re willing

sure, if I couldn't discern what it was then it's even more likely to be an undiscovered role