Open 901 - Normal Idea Mafia Redux - Postgame

[JacksonVirgo]

I should rephrase, I generally think meta is bad because people often misuse it to a pretty substantial degree. People often try and prove their beliefs directly which is an extremely ineffective way of thinking because it leaves you open to confirmation bias and cherry picking what feels right (because it's what you believe). You need to actively try and disprove what you're feeling, but nobody really does this whenever they meta-dive. I see time and time again that they try and prove themselves right. It doesn't work. There's a reason the scientific method is to DISPROVE your theories instead of just proving them.

It's easier to just say "meta bad" than to explain why

Sorry to break up the J&J party going on here.

But I do kinda agree what you are saying here Jackson, you need to be skeptical when using meta. Don't use it to prove your point per se, use it to to back up the read you have on someone(or to do the opposite........ie, in one game where they were scum they acted like this here.....but I have seen them act differently as scum as well).

That being said, this isn't always the case.......meta can help you catch someone as scum(and more often with me helps me find someone as town). And as I have said, meta hasn't made me find you as town so far(and even have said meta reminds me that you seem somewhat similar to your scum game in mafia has a cop, and doesn't remind you as you were in that last 9:12 game where I was scum).

-Asclepius

Pre Edit: Jackson, imo meta is the best used when applying it to a very similar situation where someones role was known(a back and forth where one game you were scum, and another game where you were town). I was saying your defensiveness seemed more like when you were scum vs the game where you were town.......you seemed more sure of yourself and your read, or at least expressed it better than just lashing out.

It

is

always the case, the logic is faulty if you're taking unneeded risk of bias/fallacies but this is just the fallacy fallacy. Just because the logic is faulty, doesn't mean the outcome is inherently wrong. The logic you're using is not taking into account my full town/scum range and thus it's faulty logic but you can still use it but if you use the same logic in a scum game of mine and you're right. You were right, but the logic was still faulty.

Listen, if we are gonna argue if meta is good or bad......acting like your own self meta is infallible is just plain wrong at best, and manipulative at worst.

YOU don't know when you are giving clues to your play and alignment most of the time, no matter how hard you try to stay in your town range. Everyone gives clues to their alignment in every game, and the more you play with a person the more you will pick up on said clues(obviously with some people it is harder than others).

I am using a very specific meta read, one game where you were scum and one game where you were town.......and saying how much more defensive you were in your scum game than your town game(which btw, in the scum game there was no real risk of you being limmed at that point, most people town read you besides me at that point).....whereas the town game of yours it literally was lylo, and you played it way more cool.

You can act like you have some amazing range as either alignment, and I won't dispute that, but many times you don't realize how you act in very specific situations.

That is the main part of why meta can be great in these specific situations......where it takes an outside perspective from someone who was right there with you, to see that might be pulling the wool over our eyes.

-Asclepius

You can do whatever you want with your reads, I just think you're putting my entire play into a box which I know that I exceed which feels like you're not seeing me for me which doesn't feel good.

[JacksonVirgo]

See, this is why I said Jackson has posted most of the words in this game.

It's a thing

[JacksonVirgo]

That's not the point I was making. It's one part of a larger case.

I don't understand your larger case then

[JacksonVirgo]

I love talking about this sort of thing, I'm indulging myself :)

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm genuinely having the most fun this game than I have in a long time

[Jake The Wolfie]

Could someone sanity check me on this?

It seems like Black and Jackson are vibing incredibly hard with eachother.

This one.

Case might not be the right word. Observation? Argument? Hypothesis? Jackson, you're encyclopedic, help me out here!

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson, you're encyclopedic, help me out here!

[JacksonVirgo]

Observation would be the word, I was under the impression this was like a substantial case you had on Black which I felt was like pretty shallow for a case but if it was just trying to explain an observation then I guess that makes a lot more sense.

[JacksonVirgo]

I still don't agree with it, but it makes more sense

[JacksonVirgo]

I think you're better off waiting to see if others see what you're seeing, cuz I don't at all

[Jake The Wolfie]

I'm going to cook dinner now.

I hope to see a defensible explanation for your Black townread, Jackson.

[Argonauts]

I love talking about this sort of thing, I'm indulging myself

I didn't want to create a huge quote tree lol

But I am not putting your play in a box, you aren't picking up what I am putting down here.

When python or Flavor Leaf are town, they correctly nail my alignment.....even when others admit that my scum and town range is all over the charts lol. You can't act like you know how you will act in every situation(and this goes for life in general lol). It takes another set of eyeballs to see exactly what you are doing, even if you don't even know you are doing it.

Hell in a game that just ended Psyche correctly called me scum almost right away when I made a post that seemingly was a post I would make as town 10 times out of 10.

So, with all due respect, love you man.......but spare me the self meta defense

-Asclepius

[JacksonVirgo]

A lot of it is just me vibing with them, a lot of the town-case will just be me trying to put in words how I feel when they post. It's not like I have a backlog of strong logical evaluations (for lack of a better term) on her.

[JacksonVirgo]

I love talking about this sort of thing, I'm indulging myself :)

I didn't want to create a huge quote tree lol
--snip--
So, with all due respect, love you man.......but spare me the self meta defense

-Asclepius

I believe I am picking up what you're putting down, but this is all meaningless. I wasn't making that discussion to defend myself, I was trying to talk about my thoughts on meta and used that as an example.

[JacksonVirgo]

Which is definitely the wrong place to talk about that but I got ahead of myself, was having too much fun

[Argonauts]

I love talking about this sort of thing, I'm indulging myself

I didn't want to create a huge quote tree lol
--snip--
So, with all due respect, love you man.......but spare me the self meta defense

-Asclepius

I believe I am picking up what you're putting down, but this is all meaningless. I wasn't making that discussion to defend myself, I was trying to talk about my thoughts on meta and used that as an example.

You literally were calling me out for not realizing how much of a range you supposedly have and that I was putting your play in a box.

How is that not using your own perceived self meta as a defense?

-Ascelpius

[Argonauts]

I love talking about this sort of thing, I'm indulging myself

I didn't want to create a huge quote tree lol
--snip--
So, with all due respect, love you man.......but spare me the self meta defense

-Asclepius

I believe I am picking up what you're putting down, but this is all meaningless. I wasn't making that discussion to defend myself, I was trying to talk about my thoughts on meta and used that as an example.

You literally were calling me out for not realizing how much of a range you supposedly have and that I was putting your play in a box.

How is that not using your own perceived self meta as a defense?

-Ascelpius

I can't spell lol

-Asclepius

[JacksonVirgo]

I love talking about this sort of thing, I'm indulging myself :)

I didn't want to create a huge quote tree lol
--snip--
So, with all due respect, love you man.......but spare me the self meta defense

-Asclepius

I believe I am picking up what you're putting down, but this is all meaningless. I wasn't making that discussion to defend myself, I was trying to talk about my thoughts on meta and used that as an example.

You literally were calling me out for not realizing how much of a range you supposedly have and that I was putting your play in a box.

How is that not using your own perceived self meta as a defense?

-Ascelpius

I don't agree with the logic you're using at all, it's not like I am saying that I am okay with it. I just was using it as an example in what I was saying because it was recent and was in my head

[JacksonVirgo]

I feel like I'm almost high when I post here (I'm not), which is probably bad so I'm probably gonna take a step back for a lil bit. Probably ;)

[JacksonVirgo]

I came in to say after I digested a little bit, I have this bad feeling in regards to Jake but I'm gonna sit on that for a bit

[JacksonVirgo]

I'll wait to see how he responds to my "town-case" of Black

[Jake The Wolfie]

I can see scum motivation, I just don't see it

as

being motivated by being scum. I don't know if that makes sense but just to clarify

What would the latter look like to you?

Just simple stuff like scum motivation being talking for the sake of a push rather than pushing because that's the outcome of the talking. Awful wording but I think I'm making sense? Copium

I'm really tired

This was the context that I was expecting your response to take. Granted, you were sleepy at the time.

Could you explain what you meant when you posted this?

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm gonna go through their ISO with a finer comb than I did just before and comment on everything I see of worth, which doubles as both an explanation as to what I'm seeing as well as an excuse to reconsider my stance on Black with the lens that I could be getting pocketed but I really doubt that I am.

[JacksonVirgo]

(68) "You put into words what I was pretty much thinking about Clap's question"

I liked this at the time because it felt like we were on the same wavelength, I felt the way Clap was speaking was incredibly obvious to be the way I was explaining it and when Black said that she agreed with me it made me feel two things. One of which "showed" me that I am on the right path which idk if you got this impression yet, is very important to me and also if she did truly think this way that it's a good sign that we're thinking on the same wavelength, which is townie. Of course just from this one post you can't really know if it's true or not, not saying that it's obvious that we were (and she's not pocketing me) but it's what made me start vibing with her.

I wanted to check if she had her own thoughts on that or if she was copying my reads, so I asked her what her conclusions were to it and it was different than mine. Which is a really good sign to me, cuz she could have just agreed and said that we both had the same line of thinking (for if it were a pocket attempt) but she didn't. She responded to me with her own beliefs on her wrist, misunderstanding what I was saying. So it truly was a "mindmeld" of sorts but she was misunderstanding me.

I doubt scum would take the effort to purposefully fake a misunderstanding only to just agree with me at the end. That takes a lot of weird backwards ass logic to assume so Occam's razor just tells me that it's her true thoughts and that we were mindmelding. Which is a huge deal for me.

And in 149 they posted something that I myself was thinking (aka they were posting in a way to make me look bad), but didn't say which is the inverse of what happened earlier in the game which again is a huge sign. They follow up in their next post with posts that was not along the same line of thinking and calling out lucca, but trying to understand their pov.

Their town-read on me (and lack of reads on anybody else as of 194) makes a lot of sense from a town!black pov as I am a person who said what she was thinking but that may be injecting what I town-read people from into her so take with a grain of salt.

297 feels like they're genuinely giving Mucho the light of day to open themselves up and show us what they're made of rather than pushing because it's easy. They weren't afraid to say that they don't have scum-reads and they're just voting for the sake of wagoning somebody. It feels raw and pure to me.

432 Black addressing Skygazer this way (after voting them) in a way that gives them an out. It seems like a question that if coming from scum was made to make Skygazer look bad/worse, giving a reason for the ADHD seems unnecessary and not like something Black would be thinking of instead just remove that sentence to lessen Skygazers social positioning in a sense. This one is a little iffy cuz I don't really know but it's what I had thought in the moment, I don't myself hold much weight to this one.

I like both 616 and 618 as it shows they're giving the game critical thought rather than pushing and casing those they think they can/should be pushing.

855 was another example of saying something that I was thinking, although this was an obvious one that I feel scum could and would catch. When this happened in the moment I figured Jacob was just talking about TRing the hydra and has nothing to do with the "if this flips red" cuz that's silly.

Black could have very easily just followed me in my Cakez vote, but they didn't they voted off in their own reads which I like. When I explain to them that I town-read STD they genuinely started trying to get in my brain to understand me it feels like instead of just disregarded my TR (which they could have done considering I started taking pretty vaguely and then elaborated only after they asked me more questions) and just pushing anyway. Them readdressing the reads of "lack of towniness" of all their PoE is the only thing I don't really like but that's NAI I think, or I wanna think it's NAI anyway.

When you made your case against Black, Black's rose-tinted glasses analogy fits perfectly with how I see you making your arguments so it feels like a pure and genuine response to your wall-case.

[JacksonVirgo]

Should have spoilered that