Micro Theme 1098 — PicoBlitz [ENDGAME]

[Aureal]

Spoiler: pirate greeting

[Aureal]

scum lord
VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Aureal]

Should we mass claim?

I am odd night vig

Crazy stuff, turns out I'm an odd-night vigilante too

Yup yup, totally believable

Drew would never fake-claim

And I'm definitely not going to shoot either of you tonight

[Aureal]

Hmm? It's a reference

[Aureal]

Spread? As in, town:scum ratio? What do

you

think it is?

[Aureal]

There are exactly 2 wolves.

^this, not to mention it was literally in the signup

So who else wants to vote Flavor Leaf with me?!

[Aureal]

Yeah! C'mon Enchant! We gotta get him before he gets us!

[Aureal]

Oh lord he really is scum

I just wanted to see if there was actually an attempt to quickhammer

And maaaaaybe a little bit of not wanting to deal with him in ELO

[Aureal]

I will flip town villager

Uh huh, sure man

Why fake-claim then? I saw reason for your fake-claiming unrecruitable in Reunion and it actually made me town-read you more. This, though? WTF

[Aureal]

I think my brain is broken

[Aureal]

Actually I wanna vote out Enchant. We know FL is a wolfy boi why not clear someone while we can

Okay... I still can't figure out what this is trying to say so I guess I should just ask.

[Aureal]

I don’t really know how to go about this game, so I’m kinda down to just get faded. I think probs most likely one scum on me, one scum off.

VOTE: Enchant

Ok, I was gonna ask if you actually came up with any sort of viewpoint from your supposed attempt to get reads. This seems kinda tame for you though.

And also distressingly familiar.

[Aureal]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

I am not letting you.

Oh boy

I'm really gonna need to make a decision here huh

[Aureal]

It's all fun and games until you realize you're in a wifom pit >_<

[Aureal]

Did you actually look at the setup yet, Enchant?

[Aureal]

You're super helpful

[Aureal]

I assume it'll count as such in approximately 3 hours if nobody unvotes before then, yeah.

[Aureal]

Wow, I was going to say that I wasn't expecting to unvote because I don't see what Leaf is doing here if he's town, it feels manipulative as hell

Enchant unvoting is making me feel weird though. Did he actually just try a quickhammer? And realized it didn't work so he's gotta try to justify it now...

Ugh

Thinking is hard

I guess it could be a bus, and Enchant is making sure to act like he does not know about the 12-hour hammer rule while Leaf made sure to mention it, as a way to make them look like they're

definitely not

talking to each other secretly

[Aureal]

Wow, I was going to say that I wasn't expecting to unvote because I don't see what Leaf is doing here if he's town, it feels manipulative as hell

Enchant unvoting is making me feel weird though. Did he actually just try a quickhammer? And realized it didn't work so he's gotta try to justify it now...

Ugh

Thinking is hard

I guess it could be a bus, and Enchant is making sure to act like he does not know about the 12-hour hammer rule while Leaf made sure to mention it, as a way to make them look like they're

definitely not

talking to each other secretly

I didn't know about the 12 hour hammer role until I just looked at the OP

Yeah that doesn't surprise me coming from you

[Aureal]

I’m kidding, I’m just villager.

Does that mean you're also retracting your intent to self-hammer? You're not making it easier for me to solve with that kinda crap

[Aureal]

My trolling aside, the 2 people voting me were on me before I even came into the game.

That says everything imo

Not really? I bet both of us actually read the setup

Give me a reason to think you're just trolling, I'm not finding it very convincing.

[Aureal]

Wow, I was going to say that I wasn't expecting to unvote because I don't see what Leaf is doing here if he's town, it feels manipulative as hell

Enchant unvoting is making me feel weird though. Did he actually just try a quickhammer? And realized it didn't work so he's gotta try to justify it now...

Ugh

Thinking is hard

I guess it could be a bus, and Enchant is making sure to act like he does not know about the 12-hour hammer rule while Leaf made sure to mention it, as a way to make them look like they're

definitely not

talking to each other secretly

I didn't know about the 12 hour hammer role until I just looked at the OP

Yeah that doesn't surprise me coming from you

VOTE: Aureal

I hope you're not counting on Leaf's description of the setup if you're planning on keeping that vote long, by the way. Do you think he's actually town here?

[Aureal]

Oh lord he's gonna do the changing his mind every 10 minutes thing now, isn't he

Maybe that really was just a quick hammer attempt >_<

UNVOTE:

[Aureal]

If Enchant is scum trying to quickhammer townLeaf... would Jackson be bold enough to be also on the wagon? Even knowing they still have to deal with a day two afterwards?

Eh, maybe not. Drew probably more likely.

I really should sleep or something and try to not over-stress after the crap I've been dealing with and because there's short deadlines

[Aureal]

Grrrrrrr

*suppressing urge to vote Leaf again, for the moment*

[Aureal]

Actually I wanna vote out Enchant. We know FL is a wolfy boi why not clear someone while we can

Okay... I still can't figure out what this is trying to say so I guess I should just ask.

We know FL is a wolf, there is no solving we need to do there. Why should we elim someone we know is wolf, knowing that it'll end in a 2v1 tomorrow when we can clear someone we would otherwise need to try and solve tomorrow when it's more risky and could just outright lose

So... by clear someone you mean more like resolve someone. I guess that makes some sense if it's gonna be 2:1 tomorrow and we have a strong suspect already. This only really works if Enchant flips Mafia though, since if town gets faded and Leaf is Mafia surely they would have Leaf be the one to die, right? Or do they not get to pick?

[Aureal]

K, so i chilled.

FL claimed unique role. With 5 players, that shouldn't be hard to get CC

Who are villager as well?

What even is this line of thought

Leaf has claimed like everything under the sun, how would people even cc when he can't stick to a claim, even if they wanted to?? Why would we even assume anything would cc anything?

[Aureal]

Well, if the opposite of whoever dies day one happens then...

We all die?

[Aureal]

Wow bianco, you really should've just gone with my idea and killed everyone.

So anyway, I looked back at that game Jackson referenced and I think that sort of craziness actually is likely what we're dealing with here. Why did I not realize that earlier, ugh, I just freaking took a look at that stuff recently too >_<

[Aureal]

Huh, Enchant miiiight be town here. This is more along the lines of what I expected from town Enchant in a game he actually signed up for. The not paying attention to the setup was not giving me good vibes at all.

Also, hi Drew! You're just not gonna answer my question at all, are you?

[Aureal]

Bet you didn't even read my post.

I did! Although I'm not really sure what you mean by compulsive but not compulsive.

[Aureal]

Huh, Enchant miiiight be town here. This is more along the lines of what I expected from town Enchant in a game he actually signed up for. The not paying attention to the setup was not giving me good vibes at all.

Also, hi Drew! You're just not gonna answer my question at all, are you?

What question?

Do you actually think Leaf is town here??

[Aureal]

Zero cases for why I would be scum other than me trolling by the way.

JV and Aureal both were voting before I came into the game, and stayed on me because it was easiest to do, but there really isn’t any reasons.

Sure there is reasons

Like, it was funny!

That's always a good one

You can't seriously think both scum would just decide to gang up on you before you even enter the thread. Why do you get to troll for reactions but I don't?

[Aureal]

Huh, Enchant miiiight be town here. This is more along the lines of what I expected from town Enchant in a game he actually signed up for. The not paying attention to the setup was not giving me good vibes at all.

Also, hi Drew! You're just not gonna answer my question at all, are you?

What question?

Do you actually think Leaf is town here??

I think enchant is town and you are scum.

Satan will sort out the rest

If you're town you're really not helping me find you here with this kind of cold shoulder instead of any thoughts. I haven't quite been actively scum-pinged by you yet, but I feel like you may have learned to avoid that. And my PoE is shrinking again since Enchant is looking townier. You and Leaf seems like a totally reasonable solve and you certainly aren't earning any TownDrew points.

[Aureal]

Yeah Drew, I finally get to have a PT to talk to someone and you gotta go and spoil it, so rude

[Aureal]

I agree that you've definitely been doing some lying XD

[Aureal]

Okay! And I'm a paladin-pirate-ranger with laser guns! Glad we're having such a productive conversation.

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[Aureal]

Oh ur thinking it's me? That's depressing, what should the claim order be?

As i said, i highly doubt mafia received doubled role. And because you can't kinda send it to self and i didn't send it to you.


Obviously i want to hear Aureal first. Maybe she will not confirm that.

Huh, really? Why? I didn't send fruit either, I'm just VT, and yet I got fruit too. And it doesn't sound like you guys are claiming sending any.

[Aureal]

Why would I be the one to call out FL's fakeclaim in a world where FL isn't planning to suicide, why would I plan to have FL die before me as he's much better than I am at playing as a wolf. Why would I fake-claim getting a piece of fruit, what purpose would that serve.

Are you musing about two different worldviews here? It's kinda muddled. Like, you're making arguments about a situation where FL was planning to be the one to go down, and also one where he wasn't. Right?

[Aureal]

No, I'm not and even if I were I don't know the wolves plans I can only assume based on what I know and what I know insinuates FL planned to go down after I had called him out for his claim.

Well yeah I think you are. You're saying "look, I totally am the one who screwed up Leaf by calling out his fakeclaim so I'm not scum! But also, if you don't believe that, I'm still not scum because the claim was intended to be caught out as fake and I'm not good enough at wolf to dare plan to torpedo Leaf!"

I have issues with this.

[Aureal]

No, I'm not and even if I were I don't know the wolves plans I can only assume based on what I know and what I know insinuates FL planned to go down after I had called him out for his claim.

Well yeah I think you are. You're saying "look, I totally am the one who screwed up Leaf by calling out his fakeclaim so I'm not scum! But also, if you don't believe that, I'm still not scum because the claim was intended to be caught out as fake and I'm not good enough at wolf to dare plan to torpedo Leaf!"

I have issues with this.

I'm saying that from that point of being called out, the focus was to shift to using them as a scapegoat. I never said that they planned that from the start

So you think you're the only one who realized the claim was fake right away?! Just because you conveniently happened to be online at just the right moment and managed to respond faster? I also saw that it was impossible, I just didn't react as fast or make a big point of explaining details of the obvious. So this is really not sitting right with me.

[Aureal]

I'm not entirely sure yet, I'm at work so I'm slow and not even following your back and forth completely

I do think you're most likely wolf, yeah. Apart from other stuff it'd be pretty weird for wolfEnchant to make an assertion like mafia not having two fv if he's just going to have to walk it back, so even more townpoints to him.

I'll be more available later

[Aureal]

Yeah, I get that there's not a lot of time, that's why I tried to get some quick responses in as soon as I could and even bothered mentioning being busy with work. Usually I'd just pop in whenever. I've never played a 3-day deadline game before, I'm used to at least twice that and it's messing with me a bit. Reading back a bit now, let me know if there's anything specific you want me to address.

[Aureal]

teammate prob is simultaneous combined vig+BG AND fruit vendor.

That does seem pretty damn likely now. Shield interrupts the other wolf from killing themself with the combined action and Shield dies instead. We already guessed at that before, didn't we?

[Aureal]

Probably shouldn't presume you could lie about claiming fruits.


... Or mafia knew i am informed from start.

oh lord, I'm glad the Normal Idea thread is closed or else someone would totally go put a role that's Informed about a role that's Informed about a role that's Informed about a role that's Informed about a role that's Informed about a role...

[Aureal]

No, I'm not and even if I were I don't know the wolves plans I can only assume based on what I know and what I know insinuates FL planned to go down after I had called him out for his claim.

Well yeah I think you are. You're saying "look, I totally am the one who screwed up Leaf by calling out his fakeclaim so I'm not scum! But also, if you don't believe that, I'm still not scum because the claim was intended to be caught out as fake and I'm not good enough at wolf to dare plan to torpedo Leaf!"

I have issues with this.

I'm saying that from that point of being called out, the focus was to shift to using them as a scapegoat. I never said that they planned that from the start

So you think you're the only one who realized the claim was fake right away?! Just because you conveniently happened to be online at just the right moment and managed to respond faster? I also saw that it was impossible, I just didn't react as fast or make a big point of explaining details of the obvious. So this is really not sitting right with me.

I'm saying that I called it out, and that scum probably spoke about it or mentioned it prior to claiming. I don't care who else could have called it out that is not my point.

????

You think that the wolves talked about the claim beforehand? That would mean that they either didn't know the role was impossible, or

knowingly

had Leaf claim an

obviously

fake role and incur the expected scumreads. I think the three of us would all veto that claim unless making Leaf a target was

the point

- Drew was the only one who might not care enough about the mech to not realize that it was impossible. And we can obviously see now that Drew/Leaf was not the scumteam.

So then, why would the wolves agree to have Leaf draw such heat? He wasn't actually being scumread until then, we were just messing around for lulz and reactions (as far as I was concerned- when I voted I had certainly intended to unvote before the 12 hours were up). I've been struggling with this one, but your proclamations about how

you

got Leaf to crack and openwolf are certainly giving some shape to my thoughts. I need to look more at what you've been up to, I basically just had you in my blind spot all day one because the others were being actively suspicious enough and you worked with me.

And there's also the possibility that they didn't talk about the claim and Leaf just acted on impulse. Which to me sounds like Leaf was genuinely annoyed at the pressure and decided to screw around. Which would indicate that he actually

felt

pressure, which doesn't make much sense but even less if one of the votes on him is his team-mate. Which... would implicate Enchant, hence my still having some concern there. So I was surprised to see that you've pretty much been acting like Enchant is definitely town.

[Aureal]

Okay, it's been nice, uh, talking with you guys.

Well, I guess it still beats most of my ELOs where I just get snap-voted by the other town without people even wanting to talk to me. So thanks for that.

Anyways, I'm looking back at some earlier stuff and this sequence is kind of standing out:

Actually I wanna vote out Enchant. We know FL is a wolfy boi why not clear someone while we can

Okay... I still can't figure out what this is trying to say so I guess I should just ask.

We know FL is a wolf, there is no solving we need to do there. Why should we elim someone we know is wolf, knowing that it'll end in a 2v1 tomorrow when we can clear someone we would otherwise need to try and solve tomorrow when it's more risky and could just outright lose

I just remembered that i helped bianco to get some setup going in normal and it had almost same premise.

... It didn't fill.
Maybe this one is attempt to cut corners. But i am not betting at that, otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to play here, due me almost knowing setup. Still grey area to talk about it in case i am wrong, but i know how we solved this problem.

Either way, we are given enough information. FL is confirmed wolf, I don't think anybody is arguing otherwise. So we collectively decide who the most likely wolf is OR the most difficult person to solve, gank them while we have that safety net

So Jackson successfully defuses the threat of a wagon on Leaf for the day here.

think it's aureal and drew?

I do still think it is Aureal though

Genuine question, you think aureal positions herself like they did with FL's wagon if she were wolf?

Mhm, this conversation is meaningless and gets resolved later or it doesn't. Enchant is probably Town. I like Aureal so gonna pop the malpracticing doctor

VOTE: Drew

And then he sees that Drew is making a bad push on me and decides to take my side. Leaf throws suspicion all over all of us but votes me. These actions basically set the day up as Drew vs. Aureal, where I'm reasonably likely to get hammered by Enchant being Enchant (Leaf even tries to bait him into it) or I end up voting Drew (whom I'd already expressed some suspicion of) and then Leaf gets to jump in with a sussy hammer.
But even worse, today we get this post:

It's a non-traditional game, they were planning on killing FL (or forced to? I'm not entirely sure). Aureal and FL have been linked somewhat since game start, Aureal pushed FL first and foremost out of a joke and the only serious push against them initially was when I called them out for fake-claiming an impossible role. I believe FL tried to sow doubt in you particularly by saying that you're obv-town, and I believe the hammer was supposed to be played out in a way where it's a "sniped vote" but it very clearly wasn't.

How the heck can Jackson be acting in 154 like he thinks I

wouldn't

act that way towards Leaf as a partner and then today it's a partnered link?!? This reeks of pocketing me and then pivoting once the plan to get me to vote Drew worked. And I've already touched on why the talking himself up for his 'serious push' comes off badly. He wants this credit so badly and it's sooooo stupid of a reason, it's like whaaaaaaat. The more he talks about it the more I feel like that's why we had the Leaf breakdown, to make Jackson look like a Serious Anti-Leaf Person as opposed to me.

Ugh, more tomorrow, I've really gotta sleep, starting to lose coherence.

[Aureal]

( I may also be slightly grumpy because I saw Jackson has definitely been around here this evening while I was but didn't respond to anything even after acting like I gotta hurry up and do stuff. Like really, nice to know updating your gtkas thread is so much more important than talking to me with our small deadline. )

[Aureal]

Me last night:

Oh look, I see on the board index that Jackson has posted in General Discussion; he's around now so he should be coming in to respond to me shortly since he was concerned about not having enough time

<several hours later after I've stayed up past when I should be asleep>

Okay what was he even doing, maybe he just popped in briefly and didn't actually have time for anything serious

*checking what Jackson's been posting and seeing multiple decently lengthy gtkas posts*

[Aureal]

But Enchant, town has a 100% victory rate in ELOs where I get to make the decisive vote!

And, uh... *checks notes* 0% in ones where I don't.

Wow, that started out as a joke but now I'm just depressed.

[Aureal]

I guess maybe that kinda explains why I seem to instinctively want to hold out for a hammer even when I have high confidence in my solve, like the goose game >_<

[Aureal]

Hmmm

Enchant and Jackson, how familar are you with each other? Do you have a decent amount of experience with each other or at least theur reputation?I thought Jackson had just started playing again very recently but looking a little closer, maybe that was a wrong impression.

[Aureal]

I would assume scum would talk about a claim beforehand, yes. You say that all three of you would, but that's just lip service I got no way of knowing if you would have or not and based on the assumption that scum wouldn't just spit out a claim with that complexity I feel there's a strong chance it was overlooked by both wolves.

Look, you don't have to trust my self-assessment: here I am posting about the removal of the Multitasking modifier. Here I am again, posting about changing that Normal Idea role to Simultaneous for its next iteration after Simultaneous became a thing. I assure you, I was very

very

aware that Leaf's claim was garbage and I would

never

have okayed a partner claiming it intending to be taken seriously. I hope you can see that now and understand my frustration with the way you were trying to claim credit for knocking down an obviously fake claim because apparently you are actually the other town here. I peeked in and saw you guys decided to start talking again during my raid session and bugged out a little early so I can try to actually respond and not be up ridiculously late again, so I'd appreciate it if you hold on a while and let me actually talk. It's INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING how the other townie only has only wanted to talk to the wolf and back-and-forths with him while I'm unavailable and then just ignores me forever while I try to solve on my own. I'm glad in a way that something happened as I was getting pretty close to voting you and that would've been game over, but that doesn't mean I'm not frustrated with you acting like I need to carry the game and then vanishing for half the phase.

VOTE: Enchant

[Aureal]

So Jackson successfully defuses the threat of a wagon on Leaf for the day here.

The logic was perfectly sound, and in fact was the correct move to make considering FL died anyway.

I'm not entirely sure about that? Would scum really want to go to 3:1 today by having Leaf get voted out instead of town? I think you helped them out with that move. But it's kinda irrelevant now I guess, you didn't do it intentionally.

[Aureal]

You unironically want to say that town has 3 VTs in this game, and i am mafia fakeclaiming?

Bruh.

Yes, apparently you are!

I was still evaluating what I thought of your claim today after focusing on Jackson yesterday, so, uh, thanks for saving me the trouble?

[Aureal]

If I was a wolf, I would have opted to push FL rather than some random as that would mean I could kill whoever I pleased

I don't understand what you mean here? I thought we were all figuring that the other mafia must be a lazy compulsive vig/bg or something to that effect? Mafia shouldn't be able to kill since they have compulsive actions.

...wait, wasn't it Enchant who said that's probably what it was? Uh...

...I may need to think this over some more. Quite possibly it's just TMI I guess

[Aureal]

And then he sees that Drew is making a bad push on me and decides to take my side. Leaf throws suspicion all over all of us but votes me. These actions basically set the day up as Drew vs. Aureal, where I'm reasonably likely to get hammered by Enchant being Enchant (Leaf even tries to bait him into it) or I end up voting Drew (whom I'd already expressed some suspicion of) and then Leaf gets to jump in with a sussy hammer.

What's the point you're making? You're stating things that happened but not why you think it means anything

I was explaining what it was looking like you were trying to do to me, this is how I solve. Theorizing what people were doing if they had scum intent.

[Aureal]

Hmmm

Enchant and Jackson, how familar are you with each other? Do you have a decent amount of experience with each other or at least theur reputation?I thought Jackson had just started playing again very recently but looking a little closer, maybe that was a wrong impression.

Why?

I was trying to evaluate my read on Enchant. I was giving him townpoints for not hammering me, but then I realized that maybe you don't know him that well and he might've been more cautious to pull his usual lolhammer schtick when it would just look like a really sus quickhammer to someone who doesn't know him. He quickhammered me halfway through day one without a claim in our first game, took me totally by surprise.

[Aureal]

Flavor throwed townreads on me and etc.
Flavor sussed Aureal with all power and Aureal first move in game was to vote FL.


If anything, it should make Aureal blatant.

I voted FL because I

felt

like voting him after the game we just had. I just really wanted to call him a scum lord like happened in that game (and I didn't freaking see that it was his traitor signalling to him until too late). That's how I interact with people in games, I make a lot of references to previous experiences. I was actually intending on putting something like <psuedo-vote Flavor Leaf> with the scum lord comment because it was 3/2 and it'd be really silly if there actually was a quickhammer right away, but then the game opened and I saw the rule about no hammers in the first 12 hours, so not only did I decide to make it a real vote I asked others to join for the lulz. Why the hell would I start the game with a lolwagon on my partner intending to get off of it if it actually takes off? It would get me no towncred because there was no reason for it and would do nothing other than call attention to us when one of us flips. And one of us would be

guaranteed

to flip by now. It's not something you could hide by avoiding getting killed like a regular game.

See, what Enchant is citing here is a bunch of what

Leaf

did. Clearly they decided to take advantage of my silly opening to set me up as Leaf's partner while Enchant just lost himself in speculating about mech without having to do anything vote-wise to call particular attention to himself after doing the fake hammer.

Now I suddenly realize why they didn't quickhammer me even after Drew voted- I was too valuable as a final miselimination here, given their setup on me. It was better to wait for my likely Drew vote. >_<

[Aureal]

How does it not really matter, Enchant? You're saying it's probably a lazy compulsive vig+bg and compulsive fruit vendor wolf remaining. I worked out how that plays out and it means we're 3:1 here today if we don't flip a townie the first day instead of being 2:1 like we are now. The wolf is just outnumbered even more. Seems like the kind of thing they might rather avoid. Or do you actually have a way to make a kill on town that I haven't been able to come up with? There's no opposite modifier to Lazy that I'm aware of, so I don't think you can have both Lazy vig/bg for killing yourself if you still have a partner but also a regular vig that only works if you ARE the only wolf left.

[Aureal]

Don't like having someone actually look into your mech and work out specifics you hadn't mentioned, huh?

I guess that makes me feel more likely that it's your actual role, but I really gotta sleep.

Jackson, you better freaking actually talk to me at some point, there's one day left!

[Aureal]

Oh, I guess it makes sense why he wants to maintain an illusion of wolves somehow getting to have a nightkill. His claimed role feels like power town shouldn't have in a game where wolves never get to make a nightkill except on their own teammate.

But really, must sleep! You guys are totally doing bad things to my sleep schedule.

[Aureal]

Yeah I already realized how you didn't hammer me because you were setting me up as the final miselimination, bzzzzzzzt try again! You being you might have gotten away with being on a quickhammer on me, but why do that when you can manipulate things so I am the one who looks so obviously bad?

I can't control Drew's actions or Leaf's actions. Hell, Leaf was probably planning to set me up as soon as he saw me starting the wagon on him, figured it'd be so easy to set me up as a partner that he didn't even need to try. Why does he just decide to troll the game if I'm his partner here and there's such a "blatant" association? It makes no sense!

[Aureal]

Lol, nice non-sequiteur

[Aureal]

As if you couldn't be talking about it in the PT too

[Aureal]

Fact of the matter is there's just no reason for Leaf to torch his own credibility and then try to strongly push his partner. He even put me at e-1 with you off-wagon, that's a hell of a risk to take if I'm his partner and expected to be the one to endgame! He'd be toast today if you did the usual and hammered me there! But it was just to help pressure me, which I resisted for a while because I was still holding out some hope of getting something vaguely useful out of Drew. But he was just in what seemed to be defeated scum mode, and even said something that had a whiff of tmi, so I gave in eventually.

[Aureal]

Such lies, it's afternoon

[Aureal]

Day 1 town flip: now 2/2 but during Night 1 Enchant forced to die from assumed vig/bg action or Leaf from shielding Enchant to interrupt the self-kill
Day 2: now 2/1

Day 1 wolf flip: now 3/1 but the lazy modifier which must exist on Enchant's role because of the guarantee the game won't end before day 2 means he doesn't have to self-kill; however he cannot use the standard nightkill due to still having another compulsive action of fruitvendor
Day 2: still 3/1, and the wolf still cannot use the nightkill due to having a compulsive action Night 2 as well, so the wolf surviving here sends the game to day 3 at 2:1

Basically, wolves have to get two miseliminations through regardless of who gets flipped first.

[Aureal]

I type slow

[Aureal]

Yeah, I thought you guys understood it once we concluded what the hidden wolf role likely is, you're both good with mech. You just said stuff that made me realize you hadn't actually thought it through. Or rather, one of you hadn't thought it through.

It's really lucky Enchant had just voted me by the time I realized that or I may well have jumped on Jackson right there. I reeeeeally thought he understood it, he just played a game where he was literally giving that vig/bg thing out as an invention. And Enchant is literally the one who suggested it, so he definitely should've known.

[Aureal]

Whether the game landed in 3v1 or 2v1 it doesn't really matter? Unless ur using it to case Enchant in particular for how they acted (which I am not seeing you doing? Could be wrong) what's the point in talking about it?

Because you're saying it doesn't matter and I don't see how it doesn't matter. 2:1 here means the wolf just needs to yeet one more townie today to win. 3:1 means they need to do it today and tomorrow. This is like, by definition, a harder task.

I mostly just wanted to correct what I realized was bad assumptions you had but for Enchant specifically, now that I realize he's wolf I feel like understanding the setup properly helps illustrate that his claim of Informed doesn't fit well. There's no nightkills at all, a wolf is guaranteed to die, and they still need to yeet two of three town along the way. Town having a role that could potentially just lockscum the remaining wolf on day 2 is overkill.

[Aureal]

I think I literally just explained it there but let me try to elaborate if that's not clear. There's an existing setup where the opposite alignment of the day 1 elimination dies on night 1, right? Which is what we just sort of were rolling with as how this works for a while there. Does town get any sort of power in that setup?

[Aureal]

This setup is basically that one except harder for wolves because they don't even get a complementary night 1 town kill if one of them gets voted out. And now we throw in some townie with information too so they can get caught in a fakeclaim? It's like having a n1 town rolecop on top of how the setup was made more favorable. It doesn't fit.

[Aureal]

I mostly just wanted to correct what I realized was bad assumptions you had but for Enchant specifically, now that I realize he's wolf I feel like understanding the setup properly helps illustrate that his claim of Informed doesn't fit well. There's no nightkills at all, a wolf is guaranteed to die, and they still need to yeet two of three town along the way. Town having a role that could potentially just lockscum the remaining wolf on day 2 is overkill.

Why do you think Enchant decided to vote you, as a wolf, when they could have waited for either of us to cross-vote as that was much more likely to happen than one of us voting for Enchant

Meh, Enchant gets bored easily and had such a good-sounding case that he wouldn't feel threatened. Being willing to vote first just makes you look even better, right? Note that he voted me, the person who was expressing less certainty about reads. You seemed pretty locked on to me, just look at how much he's been telling you to just go ahead and hammer already.

[Aureal]

I don't understand why town would need to have their role, I also don't understand why scum!enchant would claim it knowing both of us were going to be claiming to have been fruit-vended.

He thinks claiming something other than VT makes him look extra town, rather than scum fakeclaiming. Just look at what he's posting right now about how bianco games must have a PR (as if a 5-person game is comparable to a standard size in terms of balance!). He even got to make a little fake gambit for me, to look like he's helping solve even though it was doomed to go nowhere. There wasn't really any real risk to him in doing it, he claimed last and we didn't seem to be assessing the gamestate properly.

[Aureal]

You say that like you think I don't already hate you

[Aureal]

It'll be far from the first elo we lost because town couldn't find me, but at least I can understand somewhat given the situation- you actually tried here. The last few have been particularly bitter for me.

[Aureal]

So, thanks for that at least

Last time, even my buddy Black wouldn't give me the time of day in elo. After I fucking obvtowned too. As if the person who hasn't had a proper wolf PM in 17 years is someone to be paranoid about.

[Aureal]

Oh I don't think there's any doubt Leaf was trying to sow doubt!

What exactly are you referring to in regards to him and Enchant? I recall him saying Enchant is obvtown, after the rest of us townread him. Seems like a pretty safe thing to say about a partner who's universally townread.

[Aureal]

I literally can't parse what you're saying when all pronouns are neutral

Leaf saying that sounds like a good way to try to knock down Enchant, I guess?

[Aureal]

Yeah I really just disagree if that's the case, I don't see any need for Leaf to rock the boat his partner is on there. Going against consensus is just asking for someone to maybe care about what he says, and then he has to actually give reasoning, which people can better use to gauge what his intent truly is. Remember we did think about wagoning Enchant a little earlier, it might not have seemed that implausible town would go back to that idea.

[Aureal]

Like, at that point I was basically just ignoring what Leaf said. Saying something different than what everyone else is saying just calls attention to it. Attention was already where they wanted it, on Drew and I.

[Aureal]

I wish I knew how to explain better, too

It's just so much easier from my perspective, where I know for sure that what Leaf was

doing

(pressuring me with a vote) was where the intent should be viewed, rather than what he was

saying

I feel like I do better at solving when I keep in mind the advice to look for what Mafia actually

do

rather than what it

feels

like they should do. And voting me there was definitely a big +wincon for Leaf, while his words are just garbage.

[Aureal]

Hmmm, I been looking into Enchant and what you said about him voting first

viewtopic.php?p=13670551#p13670551

Here's scum Enchant getting Firebringer to townread him by voting quickly. Obviously plenty of differences in the situation but I think it shows he's not necessarily going to hang back as scum and wait

[Aureal]

It's just so much easier from my perspective, where I know for sure that what Leaf was doing (pressuring me with a vote) was where the intent should be viewed, rather than what he was saying

I am not looking at what he was saying directly

And I'm really not sure what that means

[Aureal]

Kinda the opposite of Leaf, huh? Kinda frustrates me that I've been made to look so very partnered with that performance. Like I would ever have been cool with my partner just going yolo-meme mode x_x

[Aureal]

Well yeah I'm trying to knock out your reads, they're wrong and I need to try to show you that or we're gonna lose and I'm getting rather tired of losing. Most of my recent games have been rough and I'm itching for a win finally. Though I'm half asleep by now so I'm probably not gonna be able to keep it up x_x

Sorry it's hard on you to figure out

I don't see the big deal about Enchant's massclaim thing, it's something that's easy enough to set up. He knew we were both gonna have fruit, it's just a self-contained show of doing something that he knows isn't going to go anywhere. Really not a hard 'trap' to plan and be consistent about.

Really still can't understand why one particular thing Leaf said is standing out to you as meaningful, it's all just garbage in garbage out to me. He threw out reads on anyone and everyone with no rhyme or reason. I wouldn't be surprised if he just flipped coins for a lot of them to tell him what his read supposedly was.

Pedit: okay, fine, totally expected

[Aureal]

I really have no damn clue what Leaf was doing, other than failing to pay attention to the setup despite me breaking it down right away. And deciding he was doomed immediately because lolwagon??? I shouldn't have even listened to him about staying on to bus but I didn't know he didn't understand until he started talking about who I should kill and it's like, bruh...

[Aureal]

There is an awful lot I want to say and a lot of it is probably a bad idea and also not things I really want to say at this point but really wish I could

[Aureal]

I will say this: for all my complaining about my never-ending town PMs, I did intensely guard myself against getting screwed out of my perfect record as Mafia- I typically scouted out games I considered replacing into to make sure it didn't look like a doomed scum slot because when that ended, I wanted it to be for good reason, not something someone else did that I had no control over. I guess that reason here was my decision- against my better judgment- to sign up for this game. I literally didn't even consider what it would do to me in this scenario if I somehow actually got a red PM because well, when you've rolled <REDACTED> town PMs in a row and just nothing but shit you have to solve constantly for the entire last fucking year, sometimes you just forget that's even a possibility?!?

I know my stupid record doesn't matter and even less so because 4 of them were 17 years ago and the other was multiball so reeeeeally nobody gives a shit

But still, it mattered to ME, you know. I get hung up on weird things sometimes. If I didn't have the fucking craziest luck getting no red PMs ever, it would've been over with sooner and I wouldn't have made it such a

thing

, I'm sure. But the longer it goes on the more it builds up.

[Aureal]

I think I mostly went through the grieving process already like a day ago and am starting to maybe be able to anticipate being able to try to look forward to just signing up for whatever without consideration for how it might affect my record. But that pressure has been building up over like a whole year, excuse me for venting a little bit here.

[Aureal]

I really have no damn clue what Leaf was doing, other than failing to pay attention to the setup despite me breaking it down right away. And deciding he was doomed immediately because lolwagon??? I shouldn't have even listened to him about staying on to bus but I didn't know he didn't understand until he started talking about who I should kill and it's like, bruh...

So he really did go off and do it on his lonesome?

Uh huh

I told you there's not a chance I wouldn't instantly veto a fakeclaim with a Multitasking modifier. Like he was even under any actual pressure at that point.

[Aureal]

Thanks DE

Black got 6

Yeah, I know, nobody would even count games from 17 years ago to make it comparable

I actually have a several weird patterns in how my games go that I've noticed, like all the damn town PMs, which I logically know are too small a sample size to mean anything, but still I try to feel like they mean something because it amuses me I guess. And then I feel like I need to uphold the pattern for some reason. I'm probably slightly screwed up.

Okay, not 'probably': definitely screwed up, or I wouldn't even be here.