(micro 1101) mystery box of silver 16: tinkleton (it tinkled)

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Post Post #675 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:17 am

Post by Psyche »

Think it should be very obvious at this point in the game that I can't solve by myself. So I hope someone can help.
Honestly would've been great if T3 could have been more involved yesterday; his D1 takes on cakez were spot-on.

But I feel forced into thinking it's HPE and one of -- but certainly not both of -- PC/Gypx.
I understand that HPE's longer posts don't look scummy.
But robert's iso was bad and this recent post seems misaligned with where HPE's head should be atm.

What are the weakest components of this incomplete solve?

ausuka townread

So i'll elaborate on the idea that her posting around deus/cakez/pc were very solid and convincing:
Posts as deus attracted attention were focused on sorting;
The cakez vote was well-motivated;
She declined the opportunity to add momentum to a deus mislim after a pretty robust permission structure had been set up (she could have, for example, endorsed cakez's case and joined with other igh-equity town like klick);
Immediate scrutiny of PC's pile-on vote on deus, which imo was the closest to an alignment-indicative vote in the sequence

There's other stuff in her iso that look townie too, but I'm fine just producing the sufficient reasons for townreading her slot.
Am at the point I feel fine losing the game if this read is wrong.
ausuka would have earned the win.

rejection of pc/gypx scum combo

Gypyx seriously pushed PC yesterday.
518 is the strongest statement because even after a permission structure was provided to shift to a PC townread, Gypyx remained committed to the read.
But even before that she pushed back on components of my PC read that she could have left alone if her only goal were distancing from PC.
Also, she had plenty of room to stick to PC the whole day if her goal were bussing. Instead, she opportunistically shifting to the other component of her implied solve to get the best possible outcome for the day.
If her agenda for D2 were just to look good and convey distance from PC, I don't think we'd have seen that shift.
These details convince me that Gypyx's push on PC yesterday was pretty real.
Can't quite clear her unless I can get similarly confident that she's not buds with HPE, but yeah!

PC's 551 also seems telling to me! I'll quote my post before that to emphasize the context. There were no other votes on Gypx at this point.
In post 550, Psyche wrote: gypx's snowcase was maybe a forced move after pressure around her initial snow positioning; i won't so strongly townweight it
also, the towncase isn't super compelling on its own. some assertions are a bit too inflexible about how scum choose posts to make
i don't really believe HPE is scum at this point and I don't think PC can be scum with HPE, Gypx,
or
Snow
so my best is on the duo actually being gypx and snow
In post 551, Political Clout wrote: VOTE: gypyx


I'll be here tomorrow. after 2. I think gypyx is just dancing around the players.
I basically set up conditions in 550 for a wagon on snow or gypyx as a counter to the existing wagon on PC.
PC could have joined me on Snow just as easily as he did on Gypx with no clear damage to his credibility.
He chose Gypyx and essentially nudged me to commit to that part of my solve.
If 551 had succeeded -- and it sure looks like it intended to -- snow and drew would have been in a place to choose between him and gypyx.
From a survivalism perspective, I feel like his odds would've looked better if it were instead a choice between him and snow, since snow was basically afk.
So the vote has somewhat low equity for PC-scum while snow is town, and even lower equity for PC-scum while gypyx is also scum along with snow being town.

That said, I'm struggling to rememeber what I thought was relationally sortable between the two before D2.
And 551 is just one post: it's too risky to infer a slot's EV assumptions from just one post.
This is because people make posts that violate their base EV all the time, either because they're not thinking things through, or because they see potential for improved equity in the sort of gambit inherent in anti-EV behavior.
That's why I think gypx's posts around PC are more convincing that they aren't a pair.

[bold]something else[/bold]
would be grateful forever if someone could point out something else. please for the love of god ive been wrong two days in a row (though i dont feel so bad about the D2 one).
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Post Post #676 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:28 am

Post by Psyche »

feel the need to restate one more time why thinking

1) ausuka/drew is town, and
2) pc and gypx aren't the scumteam
3) i am not scum

implies that the solve is HPE and [PC or Gypyx]

Here are the combos consistent with [3]. I hope everyone is here; I'm definitely here:
Spoiler: Do you think I'm scum? If not these, are the possible solves:

('Gypyx', 'Political Clout')
('Gypyx', 'HighPrincessErinys')
('Gypyx', 'Doctor Drew')
('Political Clout', 'HighPrincessErinys')
('Political Clout', 'Doctor Drew')
('HighPrincessErinys', 'Doctor Drew')


Here are the combos consistent with [3] and [1]. This is where Drew is:
Spoiler: Do you think ausuka/drew and Psyche are both town? If so, these are the possible solves:

('Gypyx', 'Political Clout'),
('Gypyx', 'HighPrincessErinys'),
('Political Clout', 'HighPrincessErinys')


And the final condition that rules out ('Gypyx', 'Political Clout'). Both remaining combos include HPE.

Spoiler: It's just the same list but with one combo removed

('Gypyx', '
HighPrincessErinys
'),
('Political Clout', '
HighPrincessErinys
')


Tell me which of 1, 2, 3 should still be in question, and why.
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Post Post #677 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:42 am

Post by Doctor Drew »

Like, I have been thinking why you aren't considering yourself as scum for this exercise(I actually like when someone takes an objective view point in similar scenarios).

But, I don't think I could see you as scum......or you have played very well as scum and gg well played.

HPE was mainly vibes and how it played after I repped in didn't really seem like scumHPE(or at least seemed like the townHPE I remember). Yes it is a vibe thing, but I feel like it doesn't go about things as scum like that.

I am also just worried you talked yourself out of Gyp and might be overthinking things a bit.
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Post Post #678 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:17 pm

Post by HighPrincessErinys »

In post 664, Psyche wrote: even just a first guess?
my went to do something else ass:
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Post Post #679 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:19 pm

Post by Psyche »

can you claim and also tell us who of Gypyx/PC should claim next?
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Post Post #680 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:20 pm

Post by HighPrincessErinys »

This one is fairly confident in you two but it was super confident in scum!snow and then he flipped town lmao. So it's not sure it can just keep just Trusting you, especially Ausuka/Drew. Not saying its time to curtail my townreads out of paranoia but this is a time to Think Carefully about my vote.
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Post Post #681 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:21 pm

Post by HighPrincessErinys »

In post 679, Psyche wrote: can you claim and also tell us who of Gypyx/PC should claim next?
Eh, sure. VT. PC next for sure, get his ass in here.
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Post Post #682 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:30 pm

Post by Psyche »

In post 677, Doctor Drew wrote: Like, I have been thinking why you aren't considering yourself as scum for this exercise(I actually like when someone takes an objective view point in similar scenarios).

But, I don't think I could see you as scum......or you have played very well as scum and gg well played.

HPE was mainly vibes and how it played after I repped in didn't really seem like scumHPE(or at least seemed like the townHPE I remember). Yes it is a vibe thing, but I feel like it doesn't go about things as scum like that.

I am also just worried you talked yourself out of Gyp and might be overthinking things a bit.
going in these circles makes me see how any slot could tonally read as town or scum.
is really frustrating. i could probably spin up a detailed and plausible case for why any slot is scum or is town atm!
this happens a lot to me, across my games lately i've been trying to find a reliable distinction between tonal and substantial reads to rely on past D1

the best i can come up with so far is heuristic reasoning about the EV of each post a player makes
but of course EV reasoning is necessarily limited. people can bus and make similar gambits, and people can also make mistakes.
we thus have to tonally interpret whether an ev-sensitive decision (like push a slot) were making an ev-motivated play, an ev-gambit, or a ev-mistake

this game im playing with the idea that probing the consistency of a position over many posts is the way to rule out at least the third scenario -- an ev-mistake
the reasoning is that people in social deduction games will notice their mistakes if they spend enough time thinking about their decision-making
but i guess the potential gap in the idea is its hazy picture of what happens next.

if scum notices they've made an EV-mistake, do they try to safely correct? or do they roll with it?
this seems to depend on whether they can expect sufficient town equity by keeping to an EV-negative decision, whether they have a permission structure to shift away from their EV-mistake without losing town equity, and the attractiveness of the positions they have a permission structure to shift to
im imagining a vague formula where each option for staying committed to the current position and also of shifting to each possible alternative position has a value assigned to it based on a balance of "hard"-EV factors (e.g., "town limming scum today means there will be an N4 and D4 i might not survive") and "soft"-EV factors (e.g., "i'll look scummy if i move my vote now without a good reason")
i imagine people sample across these options with a value-weighted probability distribution and maybe some additional biases such as against change or angering allies
and i imagine that the values in this distribution change over time based on other stuff going on in the game, like a townie making a suspicious post or expressing commitment to a position. i'm calling stuff like this "permission structures"

blah blah blah i had a bit about the difference between consistency and commitment but im not even going to finish this post who cares it's all junk all junk
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Post Post #683 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:31 pm

Post by HighPrincessErinys »

ev talk snore mimimimi
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Post Post #684 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 1:03 pm

Post by Psyche »

how is it that i can write so much in threads like these but struggle most days to draft even a sentence toward my thesis
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Post Post #685 (ISO) » Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:32 pm

Post by Doctor Drew »

In post 684, Psyche wrote: how is it that i can write so much in threads like these but struggle most days to draft even a sentence toward my thesis
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Post Post #686 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:52 am

Post by Gypyx »

honestly if Psyche is scum i think the mod should just give them the win for free
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Post Post #687 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:53 am

Post by Gypyx »

leaning towards PC / HPE (especially considering how hard it has been to get this pairing over) but i'm not disregarding Drew yet, T3 though i doubt he's scum
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Post Post #688 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:56 am

Post by Gypyx »

Not me forgetting T3 was actually flipped

actually i wonder what this nightkill's about

either like, we're in a scum!psyche world and it's kinda the only kill he could get away with

or scum was afraid that the ELo situation would push T3 to think more about the game?
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Post Post #689 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:34 am

Post by Psyche »

so no locktown reads
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Post Post #690 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:37 am

Post by Gypyx »

i might be able to locktown drew on a reread but rn i'm depressionposting
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Post Post #691 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:46 am

Post by Psyche »

ok, so i find these last several posts by gypyx scummy overall
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Post Post #692 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:49 am

Post by Gypyx »

Rawr ! *devil horns grow on my head as the background behind me takes a red shade*
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Post Post #693 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 5:57 am

Post by Psyche »

drew i made a self indulgent wallpost and im sorry.
but real point i want to convey here is that don’t know where to take this convo if it’s just “well i have these vibes”
if that’s it and my argument in 675-676 is neither something that moves you nor something you feel like engaging with then there’s nothing else to say and we should just pick someone to compromise over

we will however have to try really hard to find and recruit the last town to agree with us
while all 3 of pc/gypyx/hpe will probably never vote together, if the last town doesn’t follow us then scum can force a 50/50 shot on a mislim by just voting together for someone else

this means our compromise needs to include, and convince a third town we currently disagree on!
do you see how tough our situation is right now if we decide the talking is over?
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Post Post #694 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 6:04 am

Post by Psyche »

also im not really talked out of gyp at all i just think for the three reasons in 675 hpe is 100% sorted while gypyx is like 75%

in the end though!
because of plurality lim rules
we actually need to agree on a complete solve today, not just one lim
it’s not enough to agree that gypyx is scum
we ideally keep talking until we achieve an accord on hpe and pc
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Post Post #695 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:28 am

Post by HighPrincessErinys »

This one doesn't super think Gypyx is scum exactly, but PC just being completely absent really sucks and it's hard not to think scum is sitting back and relaxing as they get handed the win or whatever.
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Post Post #696 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:29 am

Post by HighPrincessErinys »

Here's a tinfoil hat for you: scum!Psyche doing the heavy lifting and PC taking a load off and doing nothing but nakedvoting because his partner is universally townread. Eh, eh?
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Post Post #697 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:35 am

Post by Psyche »

so you're saying it's easier for you to imagine me as scum than gypyx as scum
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Post Post #698 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:48 am

Post by Gypyx »

my heart tells me to town bin drew so that i have an anchor point for today

my mind says he has done absolutely nothing to warrant it and is probably scum
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Post Post #699 (ISO) » Mon Apr 08, 2024 8:50 am

Post by Psyche »

these little cliched posts are not super helpful for sorting

i typed out a towncase for ausuka/drew. if both of you are doubting your read on this slot, can both of you maybe read it over and tell me why it's either convincing or not convincing?
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