Manipulation, Bleed, Player-Characters, and the Purpose of Mafia
-
-
biancospino he/shecompulsive complex Inventorhe/she
- compulsive complex Inventor
- compulsive complex Inventor
- Posts: 2340
- Joined: October 18, 2022
- Pronoun: he/she
- Location: UTC+1
regardless of anything else, this discussion is making it clear to me that I completely lack a working definition of gaslighting that aligns to any degree of faithfulness to what seems to be the consensus.
Can someone give me a definition? I'm honestly quite confused tbh. Because really to me just making someone doubt their reads or though process shouldn't be called gaslighting simply for the same reason that a spade shouldn't be called a sword-
-
DragonEater70 He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8144
- Joined: February 4, 2023
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: UTC+2
So here's the thing. Like many other English language words (and words in other languages, I'm sure), the word gaslighting has several definitions. Here are both definitions I found on Merriam-Webster:In post 25, biancospino wrote: regardless of anything else, this discussion is making it clear to me that I completely lack a working definition of gaslighting that aligns to any degree of faithfulness to what seems to be the consensus.
Can someone give me a definition? I'm honestly quite confused tbh. Because really to me just making someone doubt their reads or though process shouldn't be called gaslighting simply for the same reason that a spade shouldn't be called a sword
1. psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator.
2. the act or practice of grossly misleading someone especially for one's own advantage.
Obviously, the first definition is a form of abuse that is obviously not acceptable and completely outside the scope of the game. The second really has nothing to do with abuse and is just about misleading. However I'm not sure if it gives an accurate representation of how it's used here. I think here it's used to mean "the action of stating untrue facts as true in an attempt to convince someone whoknowsthey aren't true that they are true anyway". It's different from simply lying. Lying would be, for instance, claiming a cop guilty when you are not a cop. Gaslighting is used for instance to describe the following sequence: A mafioso softclaims a guilty, gets their target eliminated, and then insists that they weren't softing a guilty at all and were misrepresented and that they thought somebody else was actually softing a guilty, and then even though you KNOW they did soft a guilty, you let yourself be convinced and eliminate the other person instead. Or another example is if mech doesn't clear someone, but they insisit that it does clear them, and they continue arguing to the point where you're questioning yourself and decide that you know what, maybe the mech does clear them. Both of these would probably be referred to as gaslighting by players who use the term colloquially (IMO). If someone else sees it differently or has something to add, go ahead.-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
Yeah if those are the examples that encompasses gaslighting here, banning it is… a decision-
-
DragonEater70 He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8144
- Joined: February 4, 2023
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: UTC+2
Just to be clear, nobody is banning the actions described above, or even any action, per se. The mod team had set up a policy which discourages players from using the term to describe the actions of other players, on the grounds that said other players would not want to be accused of abuse (it is my personal opinion that the word gaslighting when used in the context of mafia doesn't refer to abuse, but the rationale behind the policy is that the primary definition of gaslighting does refer to actual abuse).
As further clarification, per my understanding this thread isn't even about this policy, but just includes a general discussion of the relationship between manipulation in a game and the emotional state of the players playing the game.Last edited by DragonEater70 on Tue Apr 30, 2024 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
I see, I don’t understand banning words that aren’t slurs or slur-adjacent. It’s a descriptive term for one particular manipulative behaviour. If I get called out for gaslighting somebody in the context of a game I should assume they believe I am gaslighting them or they’re trying to manipulate me or others about me. If anybody is saying it in a way that incites toxicity or referring in a way that insinuates the person is actually abusive that should be brought to the mods regardless and no word ban would stop somebody from doing that, just makes it harder for the good ppl to articulate themselves and makes a transition to the site harder from other communities (the L word I still am catching myself almost saying for instance)-
-
TemporalLich Grand Scheme
- Grand Scheme
- Grand Scheme
- Posts: 5813
- Joined: January 30, 2019
- Location: A Lost Timeline
If "warping" doesn't catch on then the argument that "gaslighting" breaks the bubble (the main idea behind the moderation update related to the term "gaslighting") is weak to nonexistent considering there are arguments like this that use the term "gaslighting" casually:
also I'm not much of a fan of the term "spreading mist" but that is merely because the ideas don't connect in my mindIn post 28, DragonEater70 wrote: Just to be clear, nobody is banning the actions described above, or even any action, per se. The mod team had set up a policy which discourages players from using the term to describe the actions of other players, on the grounds that said other players would not want to be accused of abuse (it is my personal opinion that the word gaslighting when used in the context of mafia doesn't refer to abuse, but the rationale behind the policy is that the primary definition of gaslighting does refer to actual abuse).time will end-
-
DragonEater70 He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 8144
- Joined: February 4, 2023
- Pronoun: He/Him
- Location: UTC+2
I totally agree with you.In post 29, JacksonVirgo wrote: I see, I don’t understand banning words that aren’t slurs or slur-adjacent. It’s a descriptive term for one particular manipulative behaviour. If I get called out for gaslighting somebody in the context of a game I should assume they believe I am gaslighting them or they’re trying to manipulate me or others about me. If anybody is saying it in a way that incites toxicity or referring in a way that insinuates the person is actually abusive that should be brought to the mods regardless and no word ban would stop somebody from doing that, just makes it harder for the good ppl to articulate themselves and makes a transition to the site harder from other communities (the L word I still am catching myself almost saying for instance)-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
I feel it’s incredibly awkward to want a word substitute for it meaning essentially, if not exactly, the same thing. Forcing language is not really something I’m all that okay with-
-
TemporalLich Grand Scheme
- Grand Scheme
- Grand Scheme
- Posts: 5813
- Joined: January 30, 2019
- Location: A Lost Timeline
yeah I agree as wellIn post 29, JacksonVirgo wrote: I see, I don’t understand banning words that aren’t slurs or slur-adjacent. It’s a descriptive term for one particular manipulative behaviour. If I get called out for gaslighting somebody in the context of a game I should assume they believe I am gaslighting them or they’re trying to manipulate me or others about me. If anybody is saying it in a way that incites toxicity or referring in a way that insinuates the person is actually abusive that should be brought to the mods regardless and no word ban would stop somebody from doing that, just makes it harder for the good ppl to articulate themselves and makes a transition to the site harder from other communities (the L word I still am catching myself almost saying for instance)
I think it's better to have a sort of drop in replacement for the word "gaslighting" for the acceptable Mafia strategy of manipulating someone to doubt their thought process, and "warping" or "mind warping" would be a good term, though this is to minimize the risk of misunderstandings and improve game health.
pedit: the reasoning behind even proposing an alternate term is to avoid blurring the lines between in game and out of game content
"warping" might fail and if so, I don't have any real support for discouraging the use of the term "gaslighting" as there is no real alternative asides from describing the play verboselytime will end-
-
usesPython They/ThemMafia ScumThey/Them
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4615
- Joined: January 28, 2023
- Pronoun: They/Them
Hot take: That's a legitimate strategy that should be allowed as long as everyone playing agrees to it beforehand (i.e. it should be allowable on the ruleset level) since it introduces the additional skill ceiling of gaslighting, resisting gaslighting, and helping other townies resist gaslighting/helping your scumteam gaslight towniesIn post 26, DragonEater70 wrote: 1. psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator.
Obviously, the first definition is a form of abuse that is obviously not acceptable and completely outside the scope of the game.Plural | Nameless (They/He) and Alice (She/Her) and C (They/Them) and more-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
It should be allowed, period
If you are backed into a corner, and your only way out is the chance to make town distrust the current reality or lose. You’re asking them to openwolf/gamethrow/give up if they can’t then try their best to throw a wrench in what is considered true (caught in a fake claim etc).
It is incredibly unreasonable imo to ban or dissuade such plays-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
And if it’s allowed, calling the behaviour as it is should also be allowed without requiring people use softer words for the same thing-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
Calling people abusive through it is a different matter, this is a non-issue as I currently see it but open my eyes to my own ignorance if anybody thinks I am ignorant here-
-
Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18928
- Joined: May 25, 2012
- Pronoun: he/him
im so gonna regret egoing this
the problem is that the term gaslighting has inherently abusive connotations
like, the term's roots are in domestic violence
i don't think trying to fabricate your own reality as either alignment in a mafia game is gaslighting, nor does it need to be called that. it is a game, and a game about deception, playing to your win condition by making people doubt themselves is not abusive.
just say it's lying, or misrepping, or whatever people did before gaslighting was a term that got overused-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
You have all the power to use the words you want to, I don’t recall ever using it myself but ruling it as an illegal word should never be the move-
-
Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18928
- Joined: May 25, 2012
- Pronoun: he/him
what i am saying is that to say someone is gaslighting is to say someone is being abusive given its connotations
and i don't think people should be able to call people abusive if the only thing that is happening is playing the game, that just breaks into the realm of out of game influence and is horrible for game integrity
obviously if there is actually abuse happening in a mafia game it's a different story but i think that's pretty rare and far between at least in current site culture-
-
KayJayQueue She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4122
- Joined: February 20, 2024
- Pronoun: She/Her
I’m not sure if that’s a fully accurate statement. The meaning of the word seems much more subjective than your statement would imply.In post 40, Dannflor wrote: what i am saying is that to say someone is gaslighting is to say someone is being abusive given its connotations-
-
AniX NoneUCalledNone
- UCalled
- UCalled
- Posts: 3647
- Joined: September 14, 2003
- Pronoun: None
Well, I think the term gaslighting is a loaded word that isn't simply a generic description for a pattern of behavior but also implicit that that behavior is done in the context of an abusive act. For example, I think most people would object to using "domestic violence" to refer to spouses having a boxing match with one another even though the individual parts (spouse physically hitting spouse) are present because there is something MORE to "domestic violence" than simply the description of the acts, just like there is something MORE to "gaslighting" than a simple description of the acts.
I think there is more room for interpretation because gaslighting is experiencing drift away from its abusive origins. But at the end of the day, if the source of a word is rooted in abuse and a significant portion of people associate it solely with engaging in abuse, we ought to air on the side of not having people accused of abusive manipulation for playing a game.Official Gimmick List:
INVENTOR OF UPICK!LORD OF THE 11TH HOUR!ASEXUAL!KING SCAR APOLOGIST!DREAMER OF THE NE0N DREAM (SUPP 2021 LAST PLACE WINNER)!
I have donned theRED CROWN-
-
Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 18928
- Joined: May 25, 2012
- Pronoun: he/him
I fundamentally disagree so I'll just leave it at thatIn post 41, KayJayQueue wrote:
I’m not sure if that’s a fully accurate statement. The meaning of the word seems much more subjective than your statement would imply.In post 40, Dannflor wrote: what i am saying is that to say someone is gaslighting is to say someone is being abusive given its connotations-
-
AniX NoneUCalledNone
- UCalled
- UCalled
- Posts: 3647
- Joined: September 14, 2003
- Pronoun: None
If we are over-moderating here and the word has truly drifted so significantly it is a general use term, the worst result is users need to utilize a different word to describe mafia game manipulation and there are a few awkward phrasings until we settle on a word. If we were to under-moderate here and allow the term to apply to normal mafia play and the term remains significantly tied to abusive to enough people, the worst result is people are subject to accusations they are engaging in a manipulative and abusive act to which they have no retort or counter until, at best, after the game and even then to only have an academic discussion of whether gaslighting appropriately describes mafia play.Official Gimmick List:
INVENTOR OF UPICK!LORD OF THE 11TH HOUR!ASEXUAL!KING SCAR APOLOGIST!DREAMER OF THE NE0N DREAM (SUPP 2021 LAST PLACE WINNER)!
I have donned theRED CROWN-
-
Cook SheMafia ScumShe
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3057
- Joined: December 5, 2020
- Pronoun: She
- Location: Stapling Internet Together [89.9%]
crossposting this from the other thread:
and reminding everyone that this isn't the feedback thread, there are other topics of conversation that i wanted to cover within this MD thread that would have been ignored if further mod action happened that required feedback in the feedback thread.In post 4446, the worst wrote: At risk of sounding pretentious (like every time i post ever), I love how many ideas and how much nuance there is in this conversation about the wording replacement. I actually think referring to a lot of misrepresentation in a mafia game as 'gaslighting' is pretty reductive. It can be anything from spinning a narrative, to spreading mist, to capping, to just good ol' failing to see someone else's perspective.
Perhaps the term replacement is such a complicated discussion because there isn't a linear replacement. Perhaps there's not a linear replacement because sometimes, a wide spectrum of game decisions are attributed to gaslighting, whether falsely or not.
I'm generally someone who's fairly anti label because I feel like so many descriptors can end up ironically becoming prescriptive. It could be really healthy that we're having an explosion of ideas once
as we peel back the incorrect categorisation.
This isn't meant to shoot down the convo either btw, just, like, enjoying the brainvibesYour friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Cults With Guns //"ya true if you don't play mafia you are probably winning" – Alisae
Inventor of 3d20 //Successful Rebellion Leader//-
-
Cook SheMafia ScumShe
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3057
- Joined: December 5, 2020
- Pronoun: She
- Location: Stapling Internet Together [89.9%]
i.e. read the OPs -- you are also welcome to keep talking about this. i don't know. this is an MD thread. this is about mafia.Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Cults With Guns //"ya true if you don't play mafia you are probably winning" – Alisae
Inventor of 3d20 //Successful Rebellion Leader//-
-
KayJayQueue She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 4122
- Joined: February 20, 2024
- Pronoun: She/Her
I think I’ve mostly used the word “manipulating” or variations thereof when describing what happens in mafia games. I feel like it’s a blanket term, sure, but also not inaccurate. If we are moving away from the word gaslighting, I don’t see a need to get fancy with new terms. This should also take it away from any connections to abuse.
But as I said in the other thread, it should be explained in the rules that the word is a problem or it will feel harsh when someone gets warned against using a word they didn’t realize was off-limits.-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
It should be obvious that it shouldn’t be construed as abusive when it’s in the context of mafia, I fail to see why players have to be restricted in the words they can use because people are unable to realise the word has its seperate meaning in the context of the game.In post 40, Dannflor wrote: what i am saying is that to say someone is gaslighting is to say someone is being abusive given its connotations
and i don't think people should be able to call people abusive if the only thing that is happening is playing the game, that just breaks into the realm of out of game influence and is horrible for game integrity
obviously if there is actually abuse happening in a mafia game it's a different story but i think that's pretty rare and far between at least in current site culture
By all means make and use a softer term for it, but it shouldn’t be warned against, let alone enforced.-
-
JacksonVirgo they/himSurvivorthey/him
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 13492
- Joined: October 29, 2019
- Pronoun: they/him
- Location: ɐılɐɹʇsn∀
This is me being lenient about it having connotations with being abusive, which I feel is unfair to consider it directly linked to it
Copyright © MafiaScum. All rights reserved.