Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[Empking]

/confirm

[Empking]

Vote: Dust

Yes. Nothing. No.

[Empking]

@Mixo:

vote zwet

Because I hear it's the thing to do.

This indicated to me that you were just doing it for the sake of conformity. Is that the case, or no?

@Ash- Nah, that's what I was thinking. Was wondering if there was anything else to it, though.

@AA- Only trying to start discussion, in this case. Your answer seemed the most likely to provoke a more interesting discussion, considering you didn't really explain where you stood on the issue, even if you didn't vote. As for my opening post, the idea was two-fold: open up two routes of discussion, one in playstyle, one in meta, and follow them, whether alone or in tandem, into a proper-style debate. RVS and meta, in my experience, are two things most players can bring an opinion on to the table, and thus, we open up more opportunities.

Likewise, I didn't expect for everyone to just follow along and not 'random vote'. However, a random vote in the context of what I've said is entirely different than a 'random vote' in the context of a game where nothing is said against them. In a way, 'random votes' are now more viable for analysis and discussion, because they're significantly less random. Look at Dej and Mixo: from what I understand, those aren't random votes, and are totally serious, and as such, more viable for discussion. Fun stuff, eh?

@Empking- my twofold question to you is this:

1. Why?
2. Why is Dej so against your playing style, as can be attested to by his sig.

Why what?
2. Because he's a really bad player.

(LOL at me not seeing the second page)

[Empking]

Why vote me?

You're the scummiest player.

Any reason why you think Dej is a bad player?

Why would an old man be a bad football player?

[Empking]

@Dej- Wow, that's a pretty compelling argument. Let's see how they perform in this particular game though, before casting any die, so to speak.

Yay, my random vote turns out to have hit scum.

Dust: He acts scummy and refuses to hunt scum.

[Empking]

Wait, what? How is that remark scummy? Could you explain your reasoning?
?

You're highly buddying up to Dej because there's no way in hell that was a compelling argument.

Dust: The recently finished Pie game.

[Empking]

In tandem with some of the last games you've posted in, Dej's argument makes a lot of sense, Empking. Scanning over games like Open 131, or Mushroom Kingdom II, you don't actually do much to help the town, and I could certainly understand his position if I had also had 50+ games with you.

Any you know I'm town in those games, how?

On the other hand, other than Dej's almost unhealthy obsession with lynching you, I don't see much wrong with the just finished Pie game, considering he got nightkilled Night One.

And that doesn't really matter because? Considering it made town suspicious of him and stopped him from scum hunting.

[Empking]

I just completed a game with both (as well as Ace). zwet's erratic behavior and Emp's lylo lurking arguably cost the town the game. (My case as scum against Ace was awesome, however ).

No it didn't. Nobody was suspicious of my LyoL lurking and AM was as scummy as hell and me posting wouldn't have changed that.

FoS: All those talking about the Empking and Zwet metas

We've got (good) cases talking about that only serves to stop people responding to them.

[Empking]

So you'll blindly believe that tell without proof or evidence of any kind other than Ace's word?

You don't think Dust's basic admittance to it makes it a bit more than Ace's word?

[Empking]

The site that Ace is referring to has a policy against letting its members link it out. It's a locally run and operated site.

I would know, O.o'. I run it.

And Ace doesn't understand my scum meta. XP

In context that seems like admitting it to me.

[Empking]

He said Ace doesn't understand his scum meta. All that implies is that Ace doesn't know what he's talking about one way or another. I'd appreciate clarification from Dust.

The first line is the important one.

[Empking]

I'm OK (mostly because of the first and third reasons of AA23's post) with my vote.

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

[Empking]

I'm OK (mostly because of the first and third reasons of AA23's post) with my vote.

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

*facepalm*

Counterclaims, anyone?

Unvote

I just said that people shouldn't counterclaim.

Unvote

[Empking]

Yes, they should counterclaim.

Let's see, advantages to counter claim: None
Disadvantages to counter claim: Many

[Empking]

Wow I read cluttery... that was confusing

Summary -

4 villans, 3 people jumped ship when a claim came - - I think the 4th villan is Dust - - but whether he is innocent or not, they hopped so there would be time for a counterclaim

So that they can have a valuable kill AND a mislynch.

Yea - that should be more clear

So you're saying that we said that he shouldn't be counterclaimed, why?

In order to get a counterclaim?

[Empking]

Hello

Why did you post that?

[Empking]

Empking (due to putting the "don't counterclaim out there for Dust to easily see it)

I don't think anyone would need to tell Dust not to counterclaim himself. Claiming seer was the obvious scum move and wouldn't need to be told about. Not-counterclaiming as a seer is not as obvious.

[Empking]

Letting scum not claim isn't as good as you seem to think.
Town posting before the seer is as big a certainty as you seem to think.

[Empking]

Clarify your statement -

I'm telling you letting scum claim on their own is more valuable than having their hand held by a scumbuddy (hypothetically).

You seemingly instructed Dust, and then covered his ass with the no cc request - - all in one post - -

requesting no cc is a way to get out of the mud (someone claiming - they do it, we decide then)

You put us in the mud in the very same post.

If you can't justify that action, I will absolutely vote you and see you hang, Emp. It is a genuinely scummy act that cannot be mistaken for a towny move.

Unless you can enlighten me.

Enlighten me.

AA, I'll write this simply.

I got him to claim: A pro-town action.
I stopped counter claims: A pro-town action.

That's all that happened in that post, two pro-town actions.

[Empking]

Do you understand?

Don't say that.

He's town: I prevented the lynch of our seer.
He's scum: I practically guaranteed the eventual killing of a scum without outing the seer.

Which one of those is anti-town?

[Empking]

I apologize for that statement Emp - it was thoughtless of me and I mean that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification:

Asking someone to claim is pro-town when we do so in a willingness to have someone CC. - - The person claims, no CC, he/she must be who they say they are.

Requesting no CC is what we do in a circumstance when someone claims on their own, and we worry they're trying to lure the true identity out, or mislynch the CC.

You put these two things together in the same damn message - - they cancel eachother out and niether are helpful to town in our circumstance.

They then become only useful to scum.

Vote: Emp

FoS: Dust

**Let it be noted that Dust also, early in the game made buddy like statements to Emp to the effect of securing him safety from his Emp meta.

Perhaps that's even WHY Dust brought it up to begin with? You find out your partner has a target sign on their back because of their meta and try to clear it early...

Was there a mistake in my above post?

[Empking]

Your mistake was in post 106.

So you admit that I'm correct in what happened and that they're both pro-town actions?

I'm at a loss for why you're voting me then.

[Empking]

The whole point about the Emp case is that he told no one to CC if you were to claim Seer. That's scummy. When you ask someone to claim, you wait and see and then say something like that.

Only if you can guarantee posting before the seer. I couldn't.

It is better to make my post than to riisk seer counterclaiming or scum getting off claiming.

[Empking]

Vote Count

zwetschenwasser 4 - Khamisa, dejkha, AshMC1984, dejkha

Mod: Mistake?

What mistake...

[Empking]

Do we understand that asking for a claim is only useful if we intend to see how it stands to a counterclaim/with the town? I'm not being sarcastic, I just strongly feel you've all lost something in the texthere.

In this post we find AA23's main problem.

[Empking]

It's not a defense, it's the absence of attacking him. You havbeen fishing for Ace votes from me and once again are not reading the posts well - you or Dej.

GUYS - Everything you're saying applies to the two statements alone (of requesting a claim, and requesting no CC).

Did you guys even re-read Emp's post?

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

This is not:

"Guys, don't CC, it won't be safe"
"Dust, please claim" - - because he follows it with saying not to counter (in which case - - why would we need the claim at all if we won't challenge it? - immunity)

(REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

How would we know if he false claims? Why make that statement?

The entire sentence does NOT BENEFIT the town.

The point of a claim is to see how it stands with the town (against evidence and counters)

The point of a Request for no CC is to protect us when the person on trial claims

You CANNOT have it both ways - - They CANCEL each other out - - hence it was not a town move, it was scum communication to me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

i think you just don't realise what the point of claims are.

AA: Do you wantr a counterclaim?

[Empking]

The situation I'm in is that I didn't wat a claim to begin with - I am not a fan of such a thing happening on Day1 - This is actually the first game it's happened this early (that I've played)

That's the problem.

[Empking]

Is there a point to all this? (not sarcastic)

You're the one sugesting someone is scum for have a different opinion from yourself.

We all have different positions on claiming, it's not like I didn't tell you all how I felt about the situation - none of us liked it - Emp, what exactly are you leading to?

I'm getting tired of hearing how obvious and inevitable the claim was - - it makes it all the more scummier that Emp told Dust to do it and then said nobody should counter.

If anything, I would have suggested telling Dust NOT to claim.

A claim isn't the be all end all action of someone facing a lynch - - the alternative, is defending yourself against the case, and discovering potential scum in the process - am I wrong?

Emp left us without that choice.

You were welcome to tell him not to claim if you disagreed.

[Empking]

Ash: Why is Zwet scum?
Mix: Why is Ace scum?

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Zwet

Mainly about his "we should lynch Dust if he survives the night."

[Empking]

AA: I'm a lurker? Not compared to most people.

Vote: AA

Defending Zwet now he's dead and his focus on the me and Dust are scum buddies thing.

[Empking]

Firstly - Terrible reason to vote ANYONE

Second - You're seperate from lurkers with Hewitt in that sentence. Note the comma. I'm not calling you a lurker. You're

Your last sentence reads poor as well.

[Empking]

Kham: Who's scum?

Vote Count

Mixologist 2 - AA23, AshMC1984
AA23 2 - Empking, dejkha
AceMarksman 2 - Mixologist, Percy

[Empking]

I don't find Mix overly scummy.

[Empking]

Thesp: What are your feelings on Mix?

[Empking]

Asking important questions is not active lurking.

[Empking]

It is when you haven't established that the questions are important

to you

.

A replacement's feelings on the biggest bandwagon are always important to me.

[Empking]

I agree, this is getting us nowhere. We need to press on to a lynch.

@Khamisa, Thesp and Ash: You're not voting. Why? What do you think of the cases?

@Empking: Do you think AA is still the most scummy candidate? You are voting him, after all.

@Mix: Do you think you have adequately responded to AA's case against you?

Yes I do.

[Empking]

Hewitt: Three reason why Mix is scum.

Mix: Three reasons why Ace is scum?

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Ace

He's a main suspect and he's not posting.

[Empking]

Not D2, no. I forget he's in the game until he posts and his posts are normally short innocuous question that won't draw him any attention.

Why does town want attention before making a case?

[Empking]

Not D2, no. I forget he's in the game until he posts and his posts are normally short innocuous question that won't draw him any attention.

Why does town want attention before making a case?

No - I'm not saying that drawing attention to yourself is a pre-requisite for making a decent case, but you shouldn't let potential attention stop you if have something to say.

I get suspicious when people are posting in a manner that lets them slip under the radar.

You've changed your vote. Do you now think Ace is scummier than AA?

Due to replacement, yes.

[Empking]

Dejhka: We were "Masslurking" because of the "giant distraction".

Scort: You and AA23

Vote: AA23

[Empking]

Percy: You think I'm lurking more than Khamisma?

[Empking]

Percy: So by lurking you mean helping the town rather than scum? That's interesting.

Thesp: I'm getting a slight town read on Hewitt as it looks like he's trying to scum hunt.

[Empking]

A ridiculous question, where you try to tell me I should be voting for Khamisa rather than you because you've posted more than her. Post count doesn't count for squat.

Where did I mention post count? Can you try for one post not to lie.

Since your main (truthful) critisism of me is that I post things anyone could post can you give an example of a post you made that could only have been posted by Percy?

[Empking]

Percy: Also, when did AA vote me day 2?

[Empking]

Thesp: I'm getting a slight town read on Hewitt as it looks like he's trying to scum hunt.

hewitt

is trying to scumhunt? I'm having a very hard time following you there.

I think he is.

[Empking]

Thesp: I'm getting a slight town read on Hewitt as it looks like he's trying to scum hunt.

hewitt

is trying to scumhunt? I'm having a very hard time following you there.

I think he is.

Is there anything in particular that gives you that impression?

His posts seems to be consise scum hunting rather than the one upping that's going on.

Scotty: I'm meh about Dej. He's probably scum as I'm not getting actual belief that he beleives what he's saying from him.

[Empking]

Ha, it is Sotty. Ha.

Percy: The fact that she doesn't have any original opinions and just posts a lot of nothing.

OMGUS requires the person to have been voting the voter. You know that.

Percy: What makes your opinion unique wheras mine are not? What makes your cases so special that nobody else could have thought of them?

Why are you going out of your way to never say anything definitive? In what way is being precise linked to hunting scum?

I'm not.

Its linked to hunting scum because it isn't a load of gibberish but actual scum hunting.

[Empking]

Percy: The fact that she doesn't have any original opinions and just posts a lot of nothing.

...

...

Are you... are you serious?

I analysed your Day 2/Day 3 play, and came up with virtually

nothing

.

As for Khamisa, I can say:
-She doesn't like AA. Initially she said she didn't like his playstyle, but now sees his actions as scummy.
-She didn't support the Mix wagon initially until it started becoming more clear, and then voted for it
-She did support the Ace wagon
-She was very shocked by AA's vote-switching
-She finds hewitt town
-She sees the Dej/Emp link

She's posting more today than in previous days, and she's still in the 'lurker' column for me, but she's doing a lot better than you.

It's important for players to state opinions and reasons, because if they later change those opinions, there's something for us to talk about. Example: my initial defense of Mix, and subsequent turn-around. I tried to give reasons, but they clearly weren't enough, and now I'm getting investigated for it. This is a good thing. You hide behind your nonsense posts so that I have no read on you, and that means you're scum.

OMGUS requires the person to have been voting the voter. You know that.

Fine, I'll be more precise.

AA expressed suspicion of you, and for that you voted him. If he had voted, it would be what the MafiaScum Wiki calls "OMGUS".

Percy: What makes your opinion unique wheras mine are not? What makes your cases so special that nobody else could have thought of them?

Now it's my turn to call you a

liar

.

I never stated that my opinions were unique, and yours were not. I never said that my cases were special, better than everyone else's.

What I did say was this:

The many posts in this game where I state my opinions. When I make a case against someone and try to demonstrate why I believe they are scum, I am generating content for the game. You have (almost) never generated such content.

What is important is that I state my opinions, not that they're unique or special or wonderful or 100% accurate. It does two things: it can persuade people (good for me, if I'm right) and the other players to figure out my motives (good for the town, in general). You don't try to persuade anyone. You go out of your way to hide your motives. It's classic scum play.

.

Percy: You said that in response to something not by itself. You said that as an answer so the exact words don't stand alone.

Thesp: You do I find most suspicious? You do I find town?

[Empking]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**Keep this in mind.

Picture my hate for you.

I told you that thinking I weren't town would be stupid. That thinking I were a villain would make you WRONG again.

Is it really that hard to believe me? To believe that I look forward to gloating in your face at the endgame about how terrible you are at this game? How you were early on two town wagons with passion, and furthermore were wrong about me just as you lost your town in our previous game for being wrong about me then? Count the "wrongs" Dej.

I want you to picture it. The town (whether win or lose). I want you to picture me laughing at you in the endgame.

I would accept I'm town already, and save the humiliation, or clean up your scum hunting. You dont' ask questions to scum hunt, you feed off of other people's thoughts on other players, and now that you're pressed against a wall and caught, you're lashing out more than ever and are hiding behind childish antics and arguments with me.

Nobody on this forum is illogical enough to invest a single moment in your silly statements about me being a liar and manipulating this town. I've passionately pushed my points and ideas despite the hatred and suspicions of virtually everyone here. I don't have any major leadership sway of any kind and I've risked my life in this town trying to save it from people like you with theories like mine.

Clean up your act - get off my case - and try actually playing the game (hint - questions and interrogating are a good place to start - - oh, and thinking for yourself based on observations) - -

Wow. Just, wow.

[Empking]

Vote; AA

Those large posts between AA & Dej look like bussing now we know Dej was a wolf.

[Empking]

Kham: You're voting me for trying to get suspicion off me despite posting before any suspicion was on me? Why are you lying? Why are you giving false reasons to your vote? Are you trying to get a mis-lynch? You're saying despite that Dej had around the most votes he wasn't scummy at all? You're saying I'm scum because you think AA is town?

I want answers to all those questions.

[Empking]

Kham: You're voting me for trying to get suspicion off me despite posting before any suspicion was on me? Why are you lying? Why are you giving false reasons to your vote? Are you trying to get a mis-lynch? You're saying despite that Dej had around the most votes he wasn't scummy at all? You're saying I'm scum because you think AA is town?

I want answers to all those questions.

question one: suspicion carries over from other days, you know. You haven't been particularily useful, and your relation with dejkha is also suspicious.

Who was suspicious of me?
You find me suspicious because you find me suspicious?
Isn't that circular?
Do you consider it a good reason?

[Empking]

Who was suspicious of me?
You find me suspicious because you find me suspicious?
Isn't that circular?
Do you consider it a good reason?

Who wasn't suspicious of you?
No, I find you suspicious because of the things you've done.
This correct reasoning is not circular.
Yes, my reasoning is good.

AA23 & Thesp and everyone who had posted before I voted AA23
Stop lying
Stop Lying
Don't dodge the question.

[Empking]

Honestly I don't have hard evidence on why Empking is a wolf. However, I believe the way dejkha acted towards Empking was shockingly out of character and implies a scum connection. I thought this before dejkha was modkilled and I'm reinforced by that with the knowledge that dejkha was a wolf. The weak pursuit against Empking and quick abandonment by dejkha showed to me scum who is attempting to not make ties with his scum partner but it was so out of character with how he normally reacts to Empking that I can't ignore it. I agree, AA23, that the Sotty case is strong and compelling. But I'm much more convinced that Empking is scum than Sotty at the moment.

Dej only gets me lynched if you or AA are dupporting him. That's not the case here.. So its not out of chatracter. Its in character.

[Empking]

Dej only gets me lynched if you or AA are dupporting him. That's not the case here.. So its not out of chatracter. Its in character.

And this even strikes me as out of character for Empking. I don't think I've ever had him give me a "rational" response without just calling me scum or saying I'm lying.

Well at least that's in character.

Unvote

AA is acting very town today.

[Empking]

Vote; Sotty

I agree with AA2

[Empking]

The Emp case is what it is. dejkha, a wolf, was lynched. Empking and dejkha had a strange relationship. .

But not a scummy relationship.

[Empking]

Not a fan of lulls.

Who is?

[Empking]

Thesp: Ha, I can't beleive I wrote "You" instead of "Who".

AA is scumhunting as if he beleives in what he's pushing.

AA and Dej were just passing long posts against each other rather than concincing anybody.

[Empking]

Thesp; Why am I scummy?

[Empking]

AA23, I'm still a bit uncertain why you keep saying "THERE IS NO CASE ON EMPKING THAT ANYONE HAS PRESENTED RAWROMGNOMNOMNOM" when I have posted the following a number of times, and you refuse to acknowledge it. I will no longer respond to you with anything but the attached until you give it some serious thought. I really should spend my time and energy addressing everyone else, as you make it increasingly clear you have no desire to consider other options, but I'm troubled by the fact that I think everyone else (save Khamisa, who apparently agrees with me) is scum.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

---

Empking, I will answer your question a bit later when I have some time. (I must admit I'm not in a terrible hurry to convince you, but I will indeed answer you.)

But I need it to try and convince you.

Vote Count

Sotty7 3 - AA23, hewitt, Empking
Empking 3 - Khamisa, Thesp, Sotty7

Sotty7 is -1
Empking is -1

[Empking]

Thesp if you're mafia and not with Sotty, you should vote soctty.

[Empking]

Thesp if you're mafia and not with Sotty, you should vote soctty.

Even if I was mafia, I'm not sure I should trust your advice. (Any particular reason the advice is specific to me being mafia as opposed to being a wolf?)

As the mafia has less to lose.

Thesp, are you suspicious of me because Djhka reacted to me like Dejhka always reacts with me. Or that Dejhka was leaving me alive because I suck really bad?

[Empking]

Open 134 - Dejkha has support so he sticks on me.

Mini 757 - Dejkha has no support so he lreaves me.

That's exactly what happened this game apart from both situations came up (support/No Support) instead of just one.

[Empking]

I think AA is town.

Sotty: If you flipped town then I would read the game and cose out of the non-shewiits.

Vote Count

Sotty7 3 - AA23, hewitt, Empking
Empking 3 - Khamisa, Thesp, Sotty7

Sotty7 is -1
Empking is -1

[Empking]

Sotty: If you cange your vote to Thesp, I will too.

(Thesp is acting very much like Mafia and I don't want him to win with a double lynch.)

[Empking]

It's a thought but I will wait to see what Thesp has to say. I can't see how a double lynch will help anyone but the scum at this point.

Ideally we want to get rid of the wolf today to stop the night kills, so I don't know how much help lynching Thesp would actually be right now.

I'd say its about equal because Wolves need 4 more deaths and Mafia only needs 2.

[Empking]

I think a deadline is needed.

[Empking]

GG everyone and good modding ThAd.