Large Normal 92 - Game Over! Scum Win!

[Devestation]

Oh and I can only use 1 ability per phase (day1=phase, night1=phase etc etc), so I won't be able to use my other ability to prove it

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Mod-Edit Votecount 1-10

Mastin - 6

(Caboose, Devestation, Amished, zu_Faul, Empking's Alt, orangepenguin)

Devestation - 3

(Tarhalindur, Mastin, Azhrei)

OrangePenguin - 2

(cateraction, zwetschenwasser)

Zwetschenwasser - 2

(AceMarksman, zer0ph34r)

Dust - 1

(StevieT92)

zu_Faul - 1

(Maturin24)

hewitt - 1

(zoraster)

zer0ph34r - 1

(ryan2754)

Not Voting - 10

(Everyone Else)

With 27 alive, it takes 14 to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for over_9000.

[Devestation]

by prove it I mean publicly prove mastins lyncher role or save my own ass.

[King]

I'm active and following. I don't feel the need to join in on the convo when I have nothing useful or constructive to add. I'll add a vote when someone makes a convincing enough argument.

[Devestation]

So your going to bandwagon when the time comes... Mastin would kill you

[Dust]

Hm... I apologize for not being as active as I would like here. This game takes a lot more thought than my other games, simply due to the number of people who must be considered.

That said, yesterday I was sort of thinking Orangepenguin was scum, but today, what with Devestation's odd claiming behavior, I think too many things aren't adding up in his case of Mastin as Lyncher.

That said, tonight I'll be doing Iso-Post analysis of OP and Devest, as that seems to be the best way, at this point, to get a better feel for what someone is actually saying, and not what someone is saying they're saying.

Vote Devestation

Case is coming tonight... Damn school.

[zu_Faul]

FoS: Zerophear; King

King did openly state that he does not want to contribute. He can't be allowed to get through with this.
Zerophear is kind of the same. Posts like this

Man, in a game with 27 people, it sure does get boring when nothing happens.

are idiotic at best and scummy at worst.

My "/facepalm" post was in reaction to Mastin's reply to my preceding post. I have a huge problem with people who ask questions when the answer to that question is in the following sentence. Maybe you should read the whole post in context first before asking questions.

[killa seven]

sorry, this wasnt on my watched topics list

[Empking's Alt]

Dev: Are you a jester?

[cateraction]

This is very exciting. Waiting for Mastin to claim.

[Maturin24]

Unvote

Vote: Devastation

Everything about his claim seems wrong to me. I can see where he was planting the seeds of a fake-claim so he could use it later. Additionally, he throws out the "Oh, and I can only do it once a day, so I can't really prove who I am" defense without much pressure. Didn't seem like anyone was interested in that point on him, but he stated it just to cover all of his bases.

Up until that claim I was ready to vote OrangePenguin for several reasons, the biggest being a complete lack of defense, but I guess that will wait until Day Two.

[Mastin]

I've been pondering this all night.

The math doesn't add up.

Even if Devestation DOES flip scum, there's far too much detail in his claimed result, meaning that he'd flip mafia namecop. I don't know the setup, but I wouldn't be surprised if there'd be a vig to snipe me off.

Simply put, there's no way out of this mess.

As scum, I'll fight to the end, sure, even in hopeless scenarios. Claim the cop was lying about results to get reactions, or another such BS'd excuse.

But I am not scum.

...Well, by my definition of scum.

I consider scum any anti-town role who has a killing power, although some consider any anti-town role to be scum.

Yes, I'm a lyncher.

But Devestation made a mistake in his assumption:

He assumed my target was amongst those I was targeting.

That'd be stupid.

I was tunneling badly for a reason--because that's what I do as a cop.
And I've been known to investigate slightly pro-town people, so investigating Red Coyote would make sense. I thought that a cop claim with a guilty on Red would be an easy win, for my tunneling matches my cop-play perfectly.

Devestation has made that prospect impossible.
I breadcrumbed being a lyncher page one (although, obviously, nobody believed me):

His relation to this game is truly a twist of irony, that he ends up entwined with my win condition. Smile

I then told the truth, knowing I wouldn't be believed right here:

Especially because I'm changing my claim:
I'm a lyncher. Red Coyote is my target; I want him dead, but I won't vote him due to how much I like him. Wink

So, yes, I am the Lyncher. For the details, look at Devestation's claim of my role.
---

You may lynch me if you wish. I *am* anti-town in role.

But I really want to scum hunt.
Be an "honorable townie", so to speak.

Maybe, just maybe,
Considering we have a claimed JOAT with unusual powers,
And an unusual lyncher-style,

There's a recruiting mason. Recruiting masons generally change third-party win conditions to be pro-town in nature.

And I'm really, really hoping there is one.

---
I'm putting my life in your hands. You can do with it what you wish.
My lynch is the lynch of an anti-town player.

But it's not a lynch of mafia.
If you want me gone, leave it to a vig or something; a setup of this size doubtfully doesn't have one.
Or maybe if you're lucky, the mafia will try to kill me.

I can't win, anymore.
It's impossible for me to do so.

Me efforts to scum hunt, however, have been legit.

Minus Devestation, I still think that most of the people who bandwagoned me were scum.

With that in mind,

Mastin Unvotes: Devestation,
Mastin Votes: Dust

. Where my vote was before.

You know, via Devestation, that I can't lynch Red 'til day two. If you doubt my target, then you know it can't be Dust, for a lynch day one makes me still lose.

By Lorithia, I'm praying you people try to scum hunt instead of lynch-the-lyncher-who-gave-himself-up. My lynch won't be a lynch of scum (by my definition--my definition pretty much means that only Mafia/Serial Killers are scum), so I encourage the town (which I really wish I was part of. Again, "Honorable Townie" and all of that. If I am lucky, there's a recruiting mason (Like most Setups on EM that have a lyncher have a mason as well to give them a better chance of winning) who can make that "honorable" part into truth.

[Mastin]

Typos. :/

so I encourage the town (which I really wish I was part of. Again, "Honorable Townie" and all of that. If I am lucky, there's a recruiting mason (Like most Setups on EM that have a lyncher have a mason as well to give them a better chance of winning) who can make that "honorable" part into truth.

I left you with two parenthesis, without closing the original.

"so I encourage the town (which I really, really, REALLY wish I was a part of. Again, "Honorable Townie" and all of that. If I am lucky and this game has a setup with many qualities of a good portion of Epicmafia games with lynchers, this will have a recruiting mason which changes my win condition to pro-town. Or maybe a lyncher psychiatrist to cure my hate of Red. Something to make "honorable" into truth.) to continue their efforts to scum hunt and just leave me alone, for now."

[zoraster]

The question at the above post is this: Did Mastin really just give up, or is there something more nefarious going on?

As long as lyncher is around, he has a hope of winning... especially if he's not a confirmed lyncher. He could play lots of WIFOM with us. But Mastin gives up without any sort of fight.

Which is kind of what's going on here. Some questions to consider:

1. Mastin is lyncher, Devastator some sort of weird jack of all trades. Or is Mastin Jester and Devastator Lyncher? Or could this be a pretty wild scum gambit?

2. Even if we accept on its face that Dev is jack of all trades and Mastin is lyncher, are we sure RedCoyote is the target? He claims Dust couldn't possibly be his target, but do we know this? He's not had a ton of success building a successful bandwagon on Dust in the first place.

3. If we don't take it on its face and assume Mastin is scum, what kind of WIFOM games can we play with RedCoyote? Generally, Lyncher targets are town. So is this an attempt to clear RC?

---
Note that IF we accept that Mastin is NOT Jester and his target claim is correct, lynching him is something that helps town quite a bit. Far more than his scum hunting posts do. RC is then clear of being mafia.

[King]

zu-Faul, if by 'contribute' you mean posting random, inane comments accusing people I don't know to be guilty, then, yes, I won't be contributing. I'm watching the game closely to see how people act. When I notice something that's off, I'll post it. Until then all I'll have to say is, "I don't know who to trust." If you'd like me to do that until I know who to trust, I will. In any other case, I'll be watching.

[Mastin]

Did Mastin really just give up

I said it already:

I.
Can't.
Win.

It was an either/or situation between Devestation and I, no false dilemma involved. One HAD to be an anti-town role.
If Devestation were lynched, it'd condemn me.

Even if Devestation were a scum rolecop,
And even if there wasn't a vig to shoot me,
And the mafia didn't kill me,
AND Red Coyote wasn't shot,

Then I'd be the target for a lynch the next day, because Devestation would be confirmed as a rolecop, mafia or not.

The ONLY chance I had would be that Devestation WOULD flip mafia rolecop, and for me to claim he was lying about the result.

Yet EVEN IF I WERE BELIEVED,
What's the chance I'd actually get Red lynched d2?

Practically none.

As long as lyncher is around, he has a hope of winning

I know. I know. Lynch the claimed lyncher who claims his target d1. It's how it works on epicmafia; I understand the concept quite well.

My ONLY chance of winning is if there's some sort of role that can change my win condition to that of a pro-town player,
Or if Jebus incorporated a hidden "still-wins-with-town" mechanic.

I agree, in that my target (Red) is most likely pro-town.

And if I die and Red is lynched, I still do not win.

With the exception of day two, I am very familiar with this form of lyncher, on EM.

If Jebus is merciful, there's some way I can win with the town.

If not, then I will continue contributing to the town. ("Honorable Townie.")

But Mastin gives up without any sort of fight.

Again...I did the math.

The only chance I would've had of getting Red lynched is if someone other than Devestation were lynched, impossible due to the either/or scenario we had.
Only if Devestation were, in fact, a scum rolecop would I have any credibility d2.

With night-kills possible on both me and my target...

And day two being a night-mare...

Even claiming cop wouldn't have gotten Red lynched.

1. Mastin is lyncher, Devastator some sort of weird jack of all trades.

We don't know Devastator's role for certain, but it's clear he at least has a one-shot rolecop ability. Whether this is his full strength or not, we can't know for sure.

are we sure RedCoyote is the target?

I left breadcrumbs on page one. Yes, I breadcrumb as a third party role, due to the fact that third parties can still win with the town a good majority of the time.

He claims Dust couldn't possibly be his target

I've pushed for Duscum's lynch. I'd be fairly stupid if the lynch went through and my target died d1, wouldn't I?

If we don't take it on its face and assume Mastin is scum, what kind of WIFOM games can we play with RedCoyote? Generally, Lyncher targets are town. So is this an attempt to clear RC?

If I'm not the lyncher, Devestation would be exposed as a liar.

But, well, I am.

And, yes, I believe that RC is pro-town. That's why I thought the only chance I had at winning was claiming cop with a guilty, whose sanity was 100% guaranteed. I dropped loaves of breadcrumbs about being the cop in preparation. Devestation threw that plan out the window, though.

Far more than his scum hunting posts do. RC is then clear of being mafia.

Not necessarily--Red could be scum; lyncher targets are usually pro-town, but given how I'm already an unusual lyncher, he could be scum.

Lynching me won't clear anyone.
Its only purpose would be to get rid of an anti-town role, who was doing his best to be pro-town.

[Empking's Alt]

Why don't you just self-vote?

[Mastin]

Because I'm a lyncher. Not a jester.
If I can't win, I want the town to win. It has always been my principle to be sided with the village as a third party role who can no longer win.
To be quite honest, I despise working with scum as a third party role. I hate it. I'll do it to win, but if I can't win (which I currently cannot), then I won't.

It only helps the scum, in my opinion, for me to be lynched.

You could call RedCoyote semi-clear, and Devestation semi-clear, but my death wouldn't clear either of them 100%. My lynch isn't a lynch of mafia, and certainly isn't the lynch of a serial killer (my definition of scum is only these two, due to their killing power).

[Zer0ph34r]

Cateraction: Yes, unfortunately, this is exactly how zwet always plays, like a fool who thinks he is God and you know there's something about him that you just absolutely hate.

[zoraster]

@Mastin

1. Yes. You could have still won. A Devastator lynch was not a foregone conclusion. You certainly had plenty of time to evaluate whether or not we would lynch him. Lynches will not occur overnight in a setup that requires 14 votes to lynch. If Devastator was not lynched, you had every chance to lynch RC or Dust or whoever your target was. You don't need to be 100% cop to lynch someone. Admittedly, it's much harder, but the game isn't over.

2. For example, you claim that your attempt to lynch Dust would be "stupid" if you don't want to lynch him. But I don't buy this. While it's possible you could push a Dust lynch, I don't see any reason to believe he was going to get lynched today.

3. And breadcrumbs are what you make of them. For example, I can easily say you were breadcrumbing for a Dust lynch if you're actually lyncher. D2 comes along and you're not outed as lyncher. You claim cop with a guilty from D1 which is why you tunneled on Dust. You say you got an innocent on someone you suspect is actually town on D2. To me, that seems a more logical breadcrumb than your RedCoyote thing. If anything, THAT breadcrumb was designed simply so you could make this absurd argument.

4. A lyncher with a scum target doesn't make a whole lot of sense. In order for town to win, we couldn't lynch scum? I think that'd be a pretty broken setup.

5. It's interesting to me that you're trying to find any way to justify not killing you, but you gave up prematurely. I have little use for this.

[Mastin]

Lynchers lynching their targets don't end most games.
(Not to mention, vigs are still around, AND I have to be alive to win)

I asked Jebus 'bout the matter, but he said it'd be revealed when it happened.

Not like it will, now.

There's no taking back the claim.

I weighed the consequences, and found that I had nothing to lose.
Whether I gain anything or not depends very much on the setup, and the actions of the town today.

[zoraster]

I'm aware they don't end most games. But they play for second place. Lyncher wins first because town lynched someone they HAVE to lynch to win the game? The best town could hope for would be a tie for first place, but most likely second place? No, that's a broken setup.

[NanookTheWolf]

I've been gone for the weekend, getting ready to catch up on the reading. Just wanted to apologize for the extended weekend. Spent some time with the family yesterday and didn't get any time on the computer.

Be back in a while with a game related post.

[Dust]

So, wait? Devestation is actually telling the truth, and Mastin is admitting to being a lyncher...

Something feels off. Severely off.

At this point, though, I couldn't tell you what I felt was wrong if I tried. These two consecutive claims, on Day 1, when no one was near a lynch... It feels peculiar. I'm going to go back and reread Mastin-Devestation *my poor eyes*, dropping the OP read-through in light of newer events, and get back to you guys with my findings. *If I ever finish. This is Mastin I'll be trying to reread...*

[Amished]

I *will* post my response to Mastin, probably not later today (softball stuff) but I should be able to tomorrow morning (btw, somebody wanted me to answer a question brought up by Mastin, I don't know who, or what particular question they wanted answered). I just caught up again, and the way it played out it sounds authentic to me (dev's ability (not sure if he's pro-town/anti-town) and Mastin's lyncher role-claim.) I have never seen a lyncher before so I don't know exactly what would happen to the rest of the town, or what it means for RC alignment-wise.

I'd rather not play for second place though, so while I'm unvoting due to Mastin not being scummy and sounding a lot more humble lately (and not *as* big of posts), but I'd hope that one way or another Mastin's lynch win-condition doesn't go through.

Unvote

I'll have my opinions on other players too with my other post.

[Dust]

Ok, on a brief, brief scan through, I wanted to throw these questions out there. My goal of this initial run was to find out my big underlying questions about Mastin and Devestation, and to divine, in a way, their truthfulness.

Here are the questions to/about Mastin:

-Why would you breadcrumb an anti-town role, especially as early in the game as you did?
-Were you playing any differently during this day than you would have as town?
-What do you believe now that you yourself have admitted intentional tunneling?

Here are my questions to/about Devestation:

-Why Mastin?
-Exactly when did you send in your request for Mastin's role? Like, after what post?
-What did you hope to achieve by outing Mastin?

Here are other assorted questions:

-Stevie withheld his opinions on Mastin. What are they now?

When he claims. It's not like my read of him is important or would change anyone's mind. I wanna see what he would claim first though, because if he claims anything other than what I'm thinking, then he's probably scum. Which would mean it would wait for at least day 2.

-RedCoyote, were you informed of your status as a Lynchee? I figured I'd ask, even though it's not standard procedure, because the roles in this game are all seeming fairly non-standard, and you might know.
-To the Town at large- How valid are Mastin's previous arguments in the context of his roleclaim?

My opinions, summarized:

-Mastin is being truthful. This isn't any gambit I can tell. There's no motivation for one that I can see within the game. By claiming Lyncher, and suggesting that if the town wants to be rid of him asking for a vigkill eliminates the possibility, in my mind, of him being Jester or Mafia.
-Devestation, although his motives are unclear, is also being truthful. His claim against Mastin, as well as Mastin's initial resistance, followed by acceptance, seems too real to be a fabricated maneuver. The bussing they'd have had to have been doing on Day 1 to actually be scum is mind-bogglingly ineffective.

General Commentary:

-I think Mastin played a really bold move here, regardless of his actual role, and that the town can truly benefit from his actions. It is, as I said before, weird and 'off'. But that's because it's unconventional. What we have now is a lot more information than we ever had before. We basically have three new lens (Mastin, Devestation, and RedCoyote) through which to view the game, an advantage very few towns ever have on Day 1. For that, I'd like to applaud Mastin.