Lyncher Article, On the Wiki, wrote:If the Lynchee is nightkilled, typically the Lyncher assumes the pro-Town win condition.
Hmm...
Hey, scum! Please shoot Red Coyote tonight, he's contributing a whole bunch! He's a huge threat, and is semi-confirmed as a pro-town player! You need him gone tonight!
Seriously, though, this find is more reasoning to keep me alive for the moment. If Red dies during the night, then obviously, my win condition is shattered, and either the mod is lenient and I assume a pro-town win condition, or I'm f'd and have auto-lost.
OP wrote:Also, where did we first get the idea that Mastin can only win Day 2?
Dev got the details of my role pm, minus my target, which I confirmed as fact.
Amongst them was the day two win condition.
Lynchers are anti-town roles. He is NOT a neutral role.
We're also anti-scum roles, mind you, for we can win when the scum do not, OP. So, yea, anti-town, anti-scum, neutral.
In my experience playing role cop, all I got as a Role Name and didn't get any details.
Casting doubt of Dev...
I still think we should lynch Mastin Day 1 though.
"OH, S*content Censored*! MY ARGUMENT WAS BLOWN FULL OF HOLES! Uhh...still, LYNCH HIM ANYWAY!"
^
|
|
What I see.
---
OP also failed to answer Dust's question about if he believes my target in said post. Convenient, eh? Possibly throwing doubt on Red Coyote as well, via ignoring that part.
Phoe wrote:I'm going to combine both these parts of your post to say that: you really ought to have stopped, waited and seen how things work here before making a nuisance of yourself.
You are seriously SUGGESTING that I stay quiet/lurk? Yea, right.
this is not epicmafia.
Good games/setups on epicmafia can have the same basic principles applied to MS.net.
recruiting masons are hardly the rule here. much more a very rare exception.
I have admitted that I am grabbing onto what little hope I can. As it's all I can do. This is one of those things that keeps me going.
i find it annoying and unproductive that you are making sweeping assumptions and following them with sweeping statements, for which you have no proof.
I give speculation. Sometimes, it is supported, sometimes, it isn't. My daytalking scum theory is based off of reversal of opinions overnight and seemingly drastic changes from players, for example.
stop hoping, start playing.
You want me dead.
I defend.
That's how I play.
I'm ignored, due to my role, despite my efforts being true.
I go on the offensive, pointing out possible scum slips. You ignore them, thinking I'm trying to set up the lynch of my target.
In fact, how many players here have actually acknowledged the points of mine/those defending me, and still kept their votes on after it?
Not many.
Stevie wrote:Oh and it's hammer time
VOTE: MASTIN
And here I thought all the scum were already voting me.
You ADMIT to trying to drop the hammer.
Last time I saw this ploy, it was from Kieraen,
In this post, 735, as scum.
Do explain to me how this is different.
He's defending himself wayyy too hard
You're outed as the anti-town role. What would you do, just curl up and die? Of COURSE I'm defending myself hard. Don't have any choice.
and not really using good logic.
Last two to confirm, random voting stage buddying, short nights-->Scum tells.
A few of my opinions from previous games.
Face it: I'm not the most logical guy on the planet. It's a null tell.
That makes him worth a lynch because his intentions are still unclear to me.
My win condition is to get Red lynched d2. My intention is to hunt scum if this becomes impossible. It has.
For the record this is my basic reasoning for voting Mastin.
And I defended from it. You ignored that, didn't you?
Yea, I thought so.
Tar wrote:Devestation wrote:
Oh and I can only use 1 ability per phase (day1=phase, night1=phase etc etc), so I won't be able to use my other ability to prove it Razz
Devestation wrote:
by prove it I mean publicly prove mastins lyncher role or save my own ass.
That last post is is probably a crumb vig + doc (might just be vig - vigging Mastin would have proven his first ability - but I'd expect at least one other ability on a JoaT and self-protecting doc makes good sense).
Given his note about phases and proven day rolecop, he can likely dayvig as well, and unless I'm much mistaken he can also self-protect tonight.
Devestation
...if this is true, I'd love for you to claim it
. Say you have a doc ability and a vig ability if it's true.
...And then, we can save me for tomorrow, because, after I post if my win condition has changed or not, if Dev thinks I'm still a lyncher, I can be vigged, SAVING US A LYNCH. There's no better deal than that.
Phoe wrote:Should he not play best to fulfill his condition?
My win condition is impossible. My pseudo-win condition is to try and stay alive at least until tomorrow, preferably for as long as I can. My wanted-win condition is to give the town a victory.
I'm doing the latter two, for the former one is not an option.
Zor wrote:I don't want to rehash the same arguments over and over, but every time you mention that you have proved or shown clear evidence that RC is your target I will have to post. It is not true.
I've given all the evidence I can. And I believe those who deny it are trying HARD to make sure Red Coyote can still be lynched in future days, instead of him being effectively semi-clear.
Which is precisely why I think your post counts and post length have little to do with your "pro-town" intention. I think you get a thrill out of defending. I don't think it has anything to do with how town you are.
It's both.
I get a thrill out of defending myself and reading long posts (mind you, I like long posts--not many pages). And I think it's a pro-town thing to do. Longer posts give more information, more opinions.
Hewitt wrote:Damn everybody is so negative. Let's focus on not losing a townie and instead try to lynch scum, awesome. And if we lynch Mastin today are we in a much better situation tomorrow? Do we have a significantly greater chance of not lynching a townie than we do today?
Let me make my opinion quite clear- Mastin has got to go. Does Mastin have to go today? I think absolutely not and I don't think he should go today. If we believe he's telling the whole truth then he's absolutely nothing to worry about right???
Ah, the kind of opinion I love and can quote for truth. Seriously, if the scum are defending me heavily, they're doing the correct thing in doing so, for it's the more pro-town thing to do. A lynch of me is not a lynch of scum. And I can't win today. And we have potential day/night vigs to take care of me, or Red could be shot and I assume a pro-town win condition (this happens on epicmafia as well, mind you. Thirty points, better than none. And the wiki has it, so it's part of the lyncher role), or there could be a lyncher-psychiatrist, or a recruiting mason...hundreds of reasons to not lynch me.
Very few to.
-He could win! Get rid of him! (Proven inaccurate)
-His presence will stop scummy people from getting lynched! (Not today, it won't.)
-It's best to get rid of an anti-town role instead of possibly lynch a townie! (Yea, well, it's better to lynch scum than to lynch an anti-town role. You don't want to risk lynching a pro-town player, suggest a no lynch or something. Don't try this BS argument.)
-We get more information from his death to scum hunt! (We actually gain more info by letting me live and seeing what the night reveals of the setup.)
Really, this stuff is tiresome.
Can we scum hunt, now?
Oh. You actually semi-contribute to the game. Okay.
Seemed more like Phoe was being a bit bossy and commanding of what we should do, and posting information with nothing else.
Zor wrote:This bothers me. If you're saying he has to go at some point, when is that point for you? When is a better day than today?
Tonight is better.
Tomorrow is better.
Tomorrow night might be better, if you trust me enough to not get rid of me tomorrow (which few here do).
Second, I don't believe -- and nor do I think should you -- that he's telling the whole truth.
Countless times, I've shown why I have no motivation to lie, and have countered every point saying I should lie with evidence to support why it'd be a bad idea to do so. I'm telling the whole truth. Keep this in mind for metagaming purposes the next time I claim an anti-town role and you play with me. Telling the truth is one of few ways to hopefully get the town to listen to me and allow me to possibly have my win condition altered.
Hewitt wrote:And I think it's bullshit that you think there's a possibility Mastin could be scum.
How did Tar word it again? Fear mongering?
Something like that; it's what's being done.
Zu wrote:Well that was a bit out of the box. I believe Mastin's target is OP, if Dev is telling the truth.
Dev confirmed I can't win 'til tomorrow. I'm pushing for OP's lynch today, and he's the leading bandwagon other than my own. Again, that'd kinda be bad play if he were my target, wouldn't it?
THe list Mastin gave was BS, Red was a lurker as well up to that point, he should have been "easy".
Take a look at the pre-game thread, Zu. I listed my admiration of Red Coyote then. As well as listing his skill as an epicmafia player. I instantly qualified him as hard. Lurking was just a bonus charge I could add to the reasons I chose to investigate Red in the scenario where I was planning to claim cop d2. (Never happened. And I don't think it would've. Had I gotten scum lynched and not been outed, I don't think I would've been able to live through a night with some pretty Pissed off scum on my back.
)
Mastin, you are a huge smoke screen for the scum.
Correct, Zu. By trying to get rid of me day one, the scum are basically riding the easy bandwagon, thinking there will be no consequences from it.
He would be a bad honorary townie.
If I tried to get Red lynched, sure.
Zor wrote:The truth is that if this were a mini game, I wouldn't have pushed this.
Oh?
Interesting.
I'd think it'd be vice-versa:
Pushing for the lynch of an anti-town role in a mini, to prevent an instant loss for all teams 'cept the neutral role,
And basically ignoring it in a large game where the lyncher would VERY doubtfully end the game.
But that only flies as far as you believe there's a mason recruiter.
Or a psychiatrist, or Red is shot, or I am vigged...
Yea...
And it's coupled with the fact there's an even greater chance Mastin will claim recruited Mason tomorrow.
How.
Many.
Times.
Must.
I.
Say.
It?!?
Do you need capped, bolded, italicized and underlined to get the message?
FINE.
I WOULD NOT CLAIM TO BE MASONED TOMORROW IF I WAS NOT, FOR IF THERE WERE A
REAL
MASON, THEY'D COUNTER-CLAIM,
AND IF THERE *WASN'T*
, THEN
I WOULD HAVE TO CLAIM MY PARTNER AND WOULD BE LYNCHED WHEN I'D FAIL TO BE VERIFIED BY SAID PARTNER
.
I can't make it any more clearer than that:
Claiming masoned when not is just suicide.
Cabooscum wrote:hewitt, are you seriously buying what Mastin is saying, especially when lying about his lynchee is the only way he can still win?
Lying gets me lynched.
Telling the truth gives me the chance to live.
That's the shortest summary version I can give.
I don't get why you're defending this.
I'm not scum. Hewitt wants to lynch scum. Can't get simpler than that.
Zer wrote:Want to know who I think is scum? No one really.
Worst opinion ever. Not having suspects-->Incredibly scummy.
I didn't have any as scum in 688...due to me being scum.
I just couldn't do it.
I have reasons to dislike people, but if I had to pick someone, I guess I would pick Mastin, since his posts are long and full of crap, it seems like a way to make it seem like he's contributing. So you know what? Unvote
VOTE: MASTIN
Followed by the worst reasoning in the world. I'm either contributing or not. No middle ground. I have, I've scum hunted, I've been ignored, my efforts have been called a load of junk due to my role.
If people don't listen to me, then there's nothing I can do to stop these accusations...
Ryan wrote:2: You are defending yourself adequately. I was frustrated with the game state, and still am. My issue now is the position I am in. I have been in this situation before. Do I keep my vote on and look scummy, or do I unvote and look scummier because you think I should change it. A lot of people would find that more scummy than what you think is pro-town. I am completely willing to scumhunt by looking at other people, and have done so for the entire game. Again, please stop looking at my few sentences about your posting pattern and look at what I said in 534.
Unvoting isn't scummy.
NOT unvoting is.
Unvoting-->Open mind.
Not unvoting-->Tunneling.
Ryan wrote:Does anyone else find this extremely relevant, given Mastin's behavior?
Yes--it could be a very key factor.
Face it:
Red has some suspicions on him, but posts great content and raises solid points.
And I semi-cleared him.
If he is night-killed, I might become a pro-town player. Making it a very good point.
Mastin, would you be able to confirm or refute this based on your role PM info?
I dunno. I think I might've asked Jebus. I'll check.
Zor wrote:Mastin and I seem to be in accord over this.
I'm skimming over posts at the moment, and it's been a while, but from what I saw, I can understand Ryan's viewpoint.
But how could we possibly confirm this?
I'd self-vote and let myself die, reiterate all of my points, state them all as unbiased fact, and let myself die as town.
For this reason, I don't see this possibility as a good balance to the overwhelming good reasons to lynch Mastin today.
You're willing to lynch me before you give it a chance. Right. That's not scummy at all.
Hewitt wrote:3a. This is possible, however, if we kind of officially warn Mastin that he needs to post less and with shorter posts I'm sure he'll listen.
In most cases, I'd happily comply with this request, like 763.
In this game, all the people who have stated they're annoyed at my posts have already voted me, so I have nothing to lose by continuing to make long posts. I also can't do a short version short for most of my posts, the summaries I provide at the end of my posts being poor.
Zor wrote:What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say "assuming none die." I may have the first time because I was doing a rough statistical analysis, but in this one, I never made that assumption
I'll bring up the quote to prove it.
Sounds like blackmail
But it's true.
When people attack me, I respond.
I counter-attack those who I think are scummy.
And defend those attacks, and counter-attack.
It gets worse over time.
Where as if people do NOT attack me, just an occasional attack from me, I'll stroll through the game, playing whatever meta I feel like playing under...
So either you're (a) not playing to win with the role given to you [lame but what you've claimed];
I am not going to play an impossible game. If my win condition is impossible, I try to change it to be possible--in this case, by trying to become town.
Red wrote:...you're overestimating Mastin's abilities to keep himself alive
True. VERY true.
Look at my record. It's terrible.
688 (not a good example)--L-2 by page three.
735--L-1 day three by scum, was nearly screwed 'til cop claim.
742--L-1 until cop claim. (Night-killed n2)
762--L-2 at one point, I believe. (Night-killed n1)
763--L-2. (Night-killed N1)
760 and 141 are better, though. (Night-killed a day and a half after joining, early end)
Still, that's a terrible overall record. The only thing keeping me from being lynched half the time is claims and good, long, solid, heck-annoying posts.
Zor wrote:I wouldn't expect him to breadcrumb lynchees.
I breadcrumbed cop in 735.
I breadcrumbed cop almost immediately in 742, albeit accidentally.
I breadcrumbed doc in 762.
Yea...
I like breadcrumbing.
In addition to that, face it, I'm not a normal player. Expecting the unexpected from me will get you much farther.
On the other hand, I WOULD expect a lyncher to breadcrumb a cop claim heavily day 1, and I think he's done so with "duscum."
Nah. I breadcrumbed, but that wasn't how. It was with all the cop references.
If anything, he breadcrumbed RC in order to make this gambit.
I'm getting really sick and tired of having to explain this.
Breadcrumbing anti-town roles has uses.
If people point it out, deny it, stating it gets discussion going.
If people don't, and I need to claim...I use it.
It's also an attempt to make town feel like being on Mastin is scummy and the wrong choice.
It IS scummy, an easy bandwagon.
Whether it's right is a matter of opinion debates.
But it is the right choice.
Others have accused me of stating things without backing them up every post--
Can I do the same for this?
Red wrote:Mastin may be a little unorthodox
"A little"?
Zor wrote:My point is that I don't think Mastin had to drop other lynchee breadcrumbs. He dropped the one (hell, he says outright that he's lyncher and you're his target. That doesn't mean his breadcrumb is truthful.)
Two. TWO. Two breadcrumbs were dropped. Plenty enough for later on.
My point is also that I believe Mastin potentially breadcrumbing Dust as a cop is a more convincing breadcrumb than his lynchee claim.
I called Caboose Cabooscum as well. I called Zu_Faul Zcum_Faul.
Was I breadcrumbing them as well?
Please...
Phoe wrote:That's my definition of a fun game - NOT trying to break it on day one.
We have very different definitions of fun--
The sooner you start to break a setup, the sooner you can get to the truth...meaning the sooner you can win. And breaking setups through good intuition and guessing and theories is fun.
The difference in opinion should NOT be lynch-worthy, though.
Right now, it's just text walls that are annoying.
Again, I don't do them when I am asked not to and I am not being attacked.
I am being attacked.
And there's your problem.
It doesn't happen (much) when I'm not being attacked.
Nanook wrote:It's easy to tell someone, well then go scum hunt, but it's not that easy when there is one HUGE distraction in this game.
If you're lucky, you MIGHT get another two votes on me within ten pages.
The simple fact is, those pushing my wagon are the ones causing the distraction, not the ones defending me.
By wanting to get rid of the distraction (me), you vote me, and give reasoning for it. Others call you out for it in their scum hunting/defense of me.
As long as players attack me, there will be a distraction.
And unless you can convince three other people to ignore my defense and vote me, I'm staying around for longer. You're distracting from the purpose of the game, to SCUM HUNT, by voting/focusing on me.
Mastin, who are you suspicious of and why at this point in the game?
Hmm...
Mastin - 11
Caboose,
zu_Faul (lessened, but still there),
Empking's Alt (not very much),
orangepenguin (LYNCH THIS SCUMBAG!),
NanooktheWolf (Slight suspicion),
zoraster (Tunneling BADLY, amongst others),
King (Tar says it well),
Phoebus (This MIGHT be just a difference of opinion),
AceMarksman (Reversal from defending me to bandwagoning me, based off of nothing more than stats),
StevieT92 (Admitted to trying to drop the hammer),
Zer0ph34r (Reasons stated throughout the thread),
---
Off-bandwagon:
Dust (Early-on suspicions of him, though lessened),
Amished (He's playing exactly as I've seen him play as scum)
I know, all 13 can't be scum, but you asked for my suspicions, and there they are. (Yea, yea, I'm suspicious of the people bandwagoning me, I must be OMGUS'ing, and all of that C*content censored*. But I've found that my, and those who have defended me, have given darn-good reasoning, the bandwagoners have not.
Cabooscum wrote:Why? He has a motive to lie. What motive does he have to be honest?
I've said this SEVERAL times, Cabooscum. Please don't lengthen this post any more and force me to state them again.
However, I've yet to see why I have motivation to lie.
It'd only get me lynched.
What does this have to do with Mastin getting lynched today?
It has to do with NOT lynching me!
Mason recruiters don't make people town.
Depends. Sometimes, they do.
Using the possibility of a really exotic role like that as a reason to not lynch someone is incredibly weak.
Alright, then read the lyncher article, the STANDARD role, and see what happens when a lyncher's target dies.
THAT doesn't qualify as an exotic role, and is still VERY possible.
Red wrote:That may be, he may have predicted the possibility of a JOAT or some other role investigator and planted that information for that specific instance. If anyone would do that, Mastin would.
I hate cops when I'm not one. It caught me SERIOUSLY off-guard when Dev claimed rolecop. I've never seen a JOAT in my games 'til now, so I hadn't thought of them.
In fact, I hadn't thought of the possibility that my cop claim would be countered. I suppose if it was, then I would've explained how there might be multiple cops in the game.
But I hadn't thought of it.
I was thinking about what to say to get you lynched day two, Red.
I was thinking of the taste of victory, and how to explain it.
I had considered, after you'd be hammered, claiming to be lyncher and watching people say "WTF?!?" until The Mod posted the announcement I had won, but decided against it. I had contemplated which of the options (game over, removed from game, keep on playing) would happen to me.
You're right--
If anyone would've seen it coming, it would've been me.
But, no, I didn't.
Modified to reflect Mastin's views, from Zcum_Faul wrote:I still think the hammer is a
null
scum tell
Seriously, town should want to discuss.
Scum want nights to kill town.
Hence, those who want night are scum.
Simple reasoning, really.
------
Is it just me, or is this game half-dead with only half the players contributing? :/
Zor wrote:To be fair, I'm not really arguing with you. I'm using you. I think your policy is reasonable. If Mastin were to claim Mason, we should lynch him unless someone claims they masoned him.*
But it's precisely because I think it's reasonable that I used you to weaken the argument that we should keep Mastin alive because he might be Masoned.
Explain to me how it is NOT scummy to manipulate a player, Zor. Do please tell, how is you manipulating a player NOT scummy?!?
Honestly, it's my belief that Mastin made an error when he claimed
My error was believing that, for a second, people would even consider the possibility that I'm, well, ACTUALLY TELLING THE TRUTH.
assuming that EpicMafia's (which he cites many times in this game) use of Masons is the same as the use of Masons in mafiascum.
I know very well and good that it's a long shot. But I don't really have much more.
I think it's not until later that he realized his error
I was screwed, regardless of what I'd have claimed. My error was thinking that, instead of lying to the town with my easy cop claim, that telling the absolute truth would make them realize my intentions were good.
OP wrote:but I find it hard to believe that there is some magic curing role for Mastin, and I think it is pointless to assume something so farfetched.
Alright, then what about the wiki?
We know RC's a skilled, fairly pro-town, and effectively semi-cleared player.
That screams to the scum, "Shoot me!" almost as much as a power role claim. (...Hey, Red, don't suppose you'd claim to be a doctor or something like that, an important power role, adding fuel to the fire, just to make me a pro-town player, would you?
)
Wait a minute -- I thought you were a restaurant, not a human...
Lynch all liars! Fos: WC
A random FoS...this late into a game. That's not scummy at all.[/sarcasm]
Kise wrote:Good God, does every single post have to be so spaced out[?]
Not really. I respond to attacks against me with defenses and counter-attacks. People choose to make my posts longer by attacking me, for it is physically impossible for me to defend against a good attack with a short post...yet alone, eleven.
Quite a screw up, unless I'm looking at this the wrong way and it's possible for lyncher to be pro-town.
1: Not a screw-up. My only hope. Dev outed me, I would've died via vig/lynch d2 if Dev flipped JOAT d1.
2: It is possible.
-Mason recruiters, a la Epicmafia mode.
-A psychiatrist, who might be able to cure me.
-Red dieing during the night.
-Hidden mod win conditions which are so wild even I won't speculate on them.
There's been no scumhunting so far...? What have you guys been doing for 29 pages?!
Pointlessly debating over whether to lynch me or not, Kise. People who vote me are tunneling/scum who refuse to listen to the logic posted by me/those defending me, who are being pro-town in attempting to scum hunt.
Zor wrote:Who is pretty confirmed not town.
Who is confirmed not scum and has given his reasons for wanting scum dead.
WC wrote:If a lyncher is a third party type role whose win means that everyone else loses, why is he still around?
1: Because I can't win 'til day two,
2: If you think I'm a good lynch, why not vote me?
3: I'm confirmed not scum, and people want to scum hunt,
4: I'm a darn-good player, who has stated a willingness to scum hunt and has shown a desire to be a member of the town.
Kise wrote:White Castle --->
...I've seen those arrows before...
That style of posting...is very familiar...
OP wrote:You haven't done much scum hunting yourself.
Hewitt has. He brings up valid points, which you continue to ignore.
People are voting Mastin for legitimate reasons, that you continue to ignore.
1: This didn't answer Hewitt's question of why,
2: I've defended against those reasons, as have others, but nobody wants to listen to the defense of a lyncher.
Kise wrote:Dev' got very lucky with that 1-shot cop...
"Very lucky" would be getting a mafia godfather or something.
He got lucky, sure, and outed an anti-town role.
He didn't hit scum.
What kind of scumhunting can we do if Mastin is just going to be the central focus of everyone's post?
Very little.
WHICH IS WHY YOU GO ELSEWHERE AND ACCEPT THAT WE HAVE THREE PLAYERS NEARLY COMPLETELY CONFIRMED AS NOT SCUM.
By lynching him, we can eliminate all distraction and move on.
The distraction is not caused by those defending me.
It's caused by those attacking me.
And until enough votes can be garnered onto me, that "distraction" would continue, unless people decided to fulfill their win conditions and SCUM HUNT.
Zu wrote:I think mastin should be given the opportunity to catch up, and unless he brings something gamebreaking to the table, he should be lynched.
I've been strongly discouraged from doing this---
Posting all of my defenses together, LONG.
Researching Jebus's past games, LONG.
Posting likely statistics, LONG.
Defending myself through page thirty, LONG.
People's opinions on long posts-->NEGATIVE. (For some crazy reason)
But then again, most of the people complaining are already voting me. Maybe I should do these things just to make them angry to return the favor they've done to me in my defenses being ignored/bashed/shattered into a million pieces. (In other words, I'm a bit PO'd at these people if they're town, can understand if they're scum, though.)
WC wrote:
If we lynch someone other than the Lyncher, isn't it possible that the Lyncher wins? Do we know who Mastin is trying to get lynched?
If we don't lynch Mastin today, I figure he has a 1/26 chance of winning today or about 4%.
Dev confirmed that I cannot.
That's through page thirty. I think I should stop now, screw getting caught up in one post, this is too long.
