Open 148: Jungle Republic (Game over) before 800

[Tarballs]

So, you use that as retroactive evidence of me and Sotty being scum?

No, it just makes it look like you're buddying with Sotty.

I don't understand this arguement. For any closed game (or open game with more than 2 scum), there's a danger of being nightkilled whether you're mafia or not, but it still doesn't seem to stop the scum from bussing. I don't see what not having an NK has to do with anything. Having an NK isn't going to hide the fact that you bussed if you're scum.

In closed games there's at least a chance that there are no other killing forces, and if there are, you usually know it by day 2. And not having a NK means that your only way to get rid of the other scum group is by lynching, which means that they can potentially be out there for a long time. And lynching one of your own is automatically a free round for the other scum group.

One vote a wagon does not make. Nice try though.

Well, no, but your vote made it a wagon.

You weren't on the Kham wagon either so all this applies to you too right?

Yes, I suppose it does. I am also a potential mafia, but from my point of view it's clear that I am not mafia.

It's evidence that you are a poss wolf so yes I am going to bring it up again. I know you would rather we ignored it, but no. Also, how exactly did we “deal” with it?

Also my vote is “weakish”? Now that's weak.

I gave an explanation why I voted for CJ, so I no longer feel the need to discuss about it.

And judging from your post 231, the only reason why you voted for me was because I "knew" that either you or Caboose is mafia. So yes, I would call that a weak reason.

Aww, I wanna play too.
I found lots of scumtells.

Sure, you can come along. Now hurry up and tell us who your suspects are. Oh, and post a vote count while you're at it. Thanks.

[Datadanne]

Sweet.

Everyone except Datadanne has been Modkilled for da lolz day 3.

Datadanne,

Neutral mod

- wins the game!

Woohoo!
I win.

Votecount:

3 - Tarballs (OhGodMyLife, Caboose and Sotty7)
3 - Mastin (Iamausername, Yosarian2 and Wulfy)

Not voting:

I dunno, I dun´t care.

5 to lynch.

Mastin and Tarballs is at ly-2.

WTF! NOOO SLOW COMP CUZ OF WINUPDATE OH NOOOOES!
OMGWTFBBQ!

[Mastin]

<--Been preoccupied. Games just starting hold my attention better. *shrugs*.

Bastard.

[Mastin]

Let's start out with the responses to what has been said thus far in the thread.

Is switching targets scummy?

Occasionally switching targets?
No.

Often switching targets?
Yes.
If my memory is correct, and you often have switched targets, then, yes, it is scummy.

I disagree that Wulfy is the last mafia.

He seems scummy, but doesn't seem like a wolf to me.

I don't think he's town,
Hence, Mafia.

Wulfy seems town through and through.

Not really.

Yos2 is incredibly uninvolved.

He seems active enough.

Any reasoning why me and him?

I'll look into it.

Has to be?

It is something to look into.

You know something I don't?

I'll look into it.

I guess I have been lurking, looking at my post count (I thought I wasn't)

How about you fix that problem by posting more?

That works.

Consider this my “will do better post”

Okay, you'll do better.

As for Caboose making “much better points” than me I will call BS.

Caboose seems to have been absent a great deal, so I'm thinking that I'm kinda agreeing with you, here.

Caboose pretty much came on yesterday and echoed everything that had already been said by me (things you gave me props for yesterday remember) and others before asking for a vote count.

My memory of yesterday reflects this as true.

I want to see what great points he gave that weren't just him regurgitating what had been said by others.

A good point.

---
Currently thinking Sotty is pro-town. Will look into Sotty's reactions, and reactions to Sotty, yet from that post alone, Sotty doesn't seem like either werewolf or mafia.

Sotty - I just feel like you've been handling Tarballs with kid gloves, and Tar has pretty much expressly ignored you except when you directly questioned him. I'll elucidate further if/when Tar is lynched scum.

I'll look into it. (Yea, yea. It's my catchphrase this game. It happens. :/)

I feel inclined to ignore your conclusion solely because it's baseless.

That was the SUMMARY. The actual reasoning was provided in-post.

[/end of counter argument.]

That's not a counter-argument. That's a "you're wrong!" defense.

Yup. Wulfy's the last mafia from the posts. Interactions might provide a different answer, but I definitely, from just Wulfy's posts, am thinking Wulf's the last mafia. Leave Wulf alone for the time being.

I will look into timing.

I will look into the ten or so pages of interactions we've got. (Iso reads, in this case, would actually be slower.)

Since I read each of you in iso, I guess I should have checked the timing of those posts.

Always a good idea.

If I have them reversed, I will be sure to correct that

My memory says that Sotty said those points first. In fact, didn't Sotty comment on it? Something like, "stop copying my reasoning Caboose", earlier?

I'll need to look into it.

Hm... in fact, lurking is my main issue with both of you, so it's unlikely you two are scum unless scum together.

I'll look into it.

But, I really haven't a shred of proof

Surely, you've got something? Can't you just reread the thread?

For this reason, I'm getting a vague Yos2-Mastin connection.

Dunno about Yos, but you're already at least half-wrong. I'm alone, I have no buddies, I'm just a pro-town player who doesn't have a buddy. I *wish* I did. It'd be so fun, being the last scum alive.
Nope.
It'd be good for me to be a werewolf due to how close they are to winning.

Ha. I wish.

And, really.
I, as a werewolf...
Would kill players who I know to be good.
OGML, Yos, and Iamausername all fit that category--I've spectated some games they are in, know they're good, and have played games modded by them.

The rest of you...really, not that much.
Kore was not a night-kill I'd do. Kore was a suspect, and the Werewolves killed Kore, anyway.

I think that since Mastin's posts give me a head ache

Ignoring my posts-->Scummy.

I'm going to reread Yos2 instead.

I will do this as well. It needs looking in to.

I am suspicious of Mastin

Based off of a reason that I proved to be false.
Your assumption of me talking less as scum relies on me being more cautious with my wording.
That, however, relies on ONE VERY VITAL FACT:

IT IS ONLY POSSIBLE IN GAMES WITH DAYTALKING SCUM

.

Mod: You can confirm that this is NOT the case, correct?

If it isn't, then, guess what?
Your theory's instantly shot full of holes.
I was cautious with my wording as scum, and

asked my partners about if what I wanted to say was alright

. If I can't daytalk,

then what keeps me from posting it if I

don't have anyone to ask

?

Answer:
Nothing.

because I have a meta on him that he acts like this as scum.

Screw quotes in my sig.
I need to put up one of my own:

METAGAMING ME WON'T WORK!
(...In attack. Go ahead and defend me with Meta; I enjoy it and do it myself. Use it against me, and you will INSTANTLY earn my suspicion.)

In Lynch all Lurkers, a recently completed game, he lurked a lot as scum, and in the scum quicktopic of that game (which is publically avalable, if you care to see it), he made it clear that the reason he was lurking in that game was because he has more trouble posting as scum then as town.

No, Yos.
I said that I was being more careful with my wording in order to prevent me from revealing I knew to much, SO I ASKED TAJO IF WHAT I PLANNED TO SAY WAS ALRIGHT.

This is NOT possible in THIS game unless we have daytalking scum, and as this is an open setup, this is NOT something which I saw as part of the PM's.

How on earth does me being suspicious of Mastin for a good, logical reason based on meta

Correction: Poor, misguided, terrible, up to the point of twisting my words bad logic, based off of a BS meta argument.

I'm not really buying his explination here, either:

Oh, really?

Well, I've got news for you:

I'm having FUN.
Right now, debating with you. I'm hungry, thirsty, a bit sleep deprived, and have other tasks I could be doing.
Doesn't matter.
I'm typing at a word per minute speed that's likely too frightening for me to even comprehend, in order to play this game. It's fun being under so much suspicion. It's fun fighting back against the mafia accusing me of being scum when they know that I am, in fact, not scum.

Also, what happened to your earlier opinion, Yos?
You thought I was town earlier on. You said that what I had been doing wasn't scummy day one. Maybe even day two, for that matter.

Sudden reversal of opinion on a player-->Scummy.

Anyway, let me try and re-read Tar

A pro-town activity which I will be doing as well, once I finish reading and responding to what has been said since I last posted

, because my gut is telling me he's likely to be a wolf here,

I'll have to look into it.

but I'm not really sure why.

Yea, it happens. So I'll look into it.

On a side note, we have't heard from Iamasusername in a while.

Possible, "Hey! Buddy! Come online because you'll get suspicion if you don't!" comment.

I have pretty good vibes from him, though.

Definite possible wolf connection, here.

I'd like some more detail on this.

Quite simply put, I wanted to be a member of the mafia. I'm kinda disappointed that I'm a mere member of the town. I wanted to "fakeclaim" being mafia, but say to hold back the votes and that I'm just basically a mason. (What did you think that pre-game discussion was for? Me just joking?)

Then, when two of my buddies were dead (I had, ironically, if I were mafia, predicted that it'd be through a lynch and a kill--dang, I'm psychic.), I would claim publicly, in order to get the werewolves lynched, and once both dead, beg for my life and push for a no lynch.

But...
Sadly, no.
I was not given the role of Mafia.
So, instead, I decided to settle for Plan B:
As I had only wanted to claim Mafia if I were actually Mafia, claim the next-best thing: Werewolf.
I did.
It worked. Not as well as I had hoped, but it still helped us get out of the RVS.

Why would a werewolf claim get more useful reactions than a mafia claim?

Eh, they get the same. I just had really wanted to only claim Mafia if I were, well, really Mafia. :/

Thanks for letting us know!

I put a lot of weight into meta on others. (Not so much for myself) FA not being consistent with his Meta was a bit of a shock to me.

I think you could probably be even vaguer here if you tried.

The thing is...I've been bothered by you, OGML, and Yosarian since...well, the beginning of the game, pretty much. Something about you three just didn't seem right to me. (I blame you three moderating most of my games)

I am certainly looking forward to the part where you start contributing a great deal to the game.

Order Of Mastin's Operations

:

-Defend self from attacks while getting caught up.
-Attack others, reread, do Iso reads, etc. about suspects.
-Metagaming self, showing contributions to the game in question

(usually the game where the operation is being applied)

-Metagaming others, using it against them and showing why they are scum.

I'm still on the first.

I bet it's a really good one!

Vote: Mastin

This vote doesn't seem to have good reasoning behind it--
You quote me being vague/not contributing a great deal, FROM MY POSTS TODAY(/yesterday).

It doesn't translate in my mind into a reason for a vote.

This post solidifies my opinion on Wulfy.
The points raised in the first few paragraphs are good, but most of them imply that Sotty/Caboose are Werewolves, barely taking into consideration the possibility of Mafia, from what I understood.

Hm... Mastin-mafia and Mastin-Wolf would be similar, but in this game, Mastin of either one could legitimately scum hunt for mafia members, which would semi-negate this.

Option C:
I'm town and want BOTH dead.

The fact he has remained quiet tells me that, if he is mafia, that Mastin's issue is knowing something about the set up and being afraid to give that away. He could probably fake scum hunting.

This would be true of ANY player.

Hm... I don't think that this provides us with anymore information than this: Mastin is likely to be some kind of scum.

Nope. I'll explain why in section three of my order of posting. (See above)

Mastin followed OGML yesterday on the Kham lynch.

Actually...look at my posts day one. Khamisa was my secondary day one suspect, which automatically made Khamisa my primary day two suspect.

Hm... yes, if Mastin is wolf, I think one of these two are most likely wolf with him.

Problem is, I'm not.

If I were a Werewolf, I would've claimed to be town, and referenced the fact that I always self-vote and call myself scum, in a reverse way, calling myself scum. Complex, but it works.

Also, his early "gambit" with mafia today makes it very unlikely he's of that scum faction. He has no one to "warn" if he did. And the wolf would gain the most from their claim.

Mafia claiming gives us a clear. It's like a mason claiming. Like I said, it's what I'd do as mafia. So I ask of it as Town.

Hm...Yos2 isn't a possible partner.

And why not? Weren't you saying earlier it WAS Yos?

Just realized i forgot Tarballs (despite the list... >.<)... I'll reread him.

What made you forget Tarb?

It makes the most sense.

Problem is, No, it doesn't.

Vote:Mastin

Note:

His first real post since Iamausername posted...was a vote on me.

I really don't think he's scumhunting at all here.

YET.

We're a long way away from a deadline; give me some time, people. This mistake was made before and I was hammered, flipped town, ruined my unlynched-as-town record.

Even though he's been saying that we need to warewolf hunt, he has yet to actually say who his suspects for being a warewolf are this game.

This comes with a reread of the thread.

From just looking at recent posts, I'd say a Yos-Iamausername pair.

This, along with my meta on him that him being less active is a scumtell, makes me think he's probably scum.

Right. I blew that theory full of holes.
What other BS do you plan to throw at me?

---

End page ten. Onto page eleven, then My Step Two.

[Mastin]

Mastin and Tarballs is at ly-2.

Psst...it's "are", not "is".

Also,

Mod:

I need a quote tag fixed--

I guess I have been lurking, looking at my post count (I thought I wasn't).

How about you fix that problem by posting more?

That is what it should look like.

[Mastin]

Right, so, end phase one (for now)--

-Defend self from attacks while getting caught up.

I will be busy for a while (need to eat, attend to other games),
But when I come back,
Assuming nothing new to respond to,

I will be going back and rereading. Phase two.

-Attack others, reread, do Iso reads, etc. about suspects.

That is my goal.

For the moment, though, Iamausername-Yos2 is my werewolf team pick.
With that in mind,

Mastin Votes: Iamausername

.

Let's see what I can dig up to support this.

[Yosarian2]

I am suspicious of Mastin

Based off of a reason that I proved to be false.
Your assumption of me talking less as scum relies on me being more cautious with my wording.
That, however, relies on ONE VERY VITAL FACT:

IT IS ONLY POSSIBLE IN GAMES WITH DAYTALKING SCUM

.

Eh, could be, but I don't buy it.

Based on what I saw in that game, I think that, when you are scum, you post less because as scum, you're paranoid about how anything you say might make you look bad. It's a common trait amoung scum, actually. I don't see how daytalking or not has anything to do with it.

Do you have a counter-example, of a game when you were scum and yet you were very active all game?

I was cautious with my wording as scum, and

asked my partners about if what I wanted to say was alright

. If I can't daytalk,

then what keeps me from posting it if I

don't have anyone to ask

?

Well, that's part of it, sure.

I think this is also a part of why you're less active as scum then as town:

As for reasons, I'll likely give them when I catch up. I *am* behind...


GREATEST FEAR AS SCUM: Making a slip about knowing something I shouldn't know. That *really* seems to be a possible problem every time I post... (referring to my latest post)

I think that that very problem, that fear that you might say something wrong as scum, inherently makes you post less when you're scum.

METAGAMING ME WON'T WORK!
(...In attack. Go ahead and defend me with Meta; I enjoy it and do it myself. Use it against me, and you will INSTANTLY earn my suspicion.)

Pfft.

You think you can just declare that metaing you won't work, and therefore that anyone who suspects you for meta reasons will "earn your suspicions"?

Everyone plays differently when they're scum from when they're town. Everyone has certain patterns of play. Some people are harder to meta then others, but I doubt there is anyone who is so perfect that metaing them is completly worthless.

Also, if there is a difference between your town meta and your scum meta, you are unlikely to be aware of it, so you claiming "METAING ME DOSN'T WORK" as a defence is complete crap.

I said that I was being more careful with my wording in order to prevent me from revealing I knew to much, SO I ASKED TAJO IF WHAT I PLANNED TO SAY WAS ALRIGHT.

Well, daytalking or not, scum always know too much, though; that's part of what makes them scum.

How on earth does me being suspicious of Mastin for a good, logical reason based on meta

Correction: Poor, misguided, terrible, up to the point of twisting my words bad logic, based off of a BS meta argument.

There is nothing BS about my meta argument, and I have never "twisted your words" or "used bad logic" to my knowlege in this game.

I'm not really buying his explination here, either:

Oh, really?

Well, I've got news for you:

I'm having FUN.
Right now, debating with you. I'm hungry, thirsty, a bit sleep deprived, and have other tasks I could be doing.
Doesn't matter.
I'm typing at a word per minute speed that's likely too frightening for me to even comprehend, in order to play this game. It's fun being under so much suspicion.

heh. Oh, I'm sure you're having fun. It's always fun to be fighting for your life. That's irrelevent, though.

Also, your claim here (which was that you apparently on some level lurked BECAUSE you wanted to be attacked, because you know you have a meta of lurking as scum) seems to completly contradict your other claim that you do not have a meta of lurking as scum.

Also, what happened to your earlier opinion, Yos?
You thought I was town earlier on. You said that what I had been doing wasn't scummy day one. Maybe even day two, for that matter.

(nods) Yup. I thought you were town day 1.

Sudden reversal of opinion on a player-->Scummy.

100% wrong.

Town should always be willing to change their minds. There are a lot of reasons for that; the prime one being that, if people just keep going after the same suspects all game and trusting the same people all game, then it's very easy for the scum to manipulate the game by careful use of nightkills. Beyond that, changing your mind is much better at getting reactions and finding scum then never doing so. The scariest scumhunters are the people who think you're town, then suddenly flip on you and go after you based on some new piece of information; those are both the best at finding scum, and the best at screwing with scum's gameplans.

I've gone so far in the past as to declare that consistancy itself is a scumtell.

On a side note, we have't heard from Iamasusername in a while.

Possible, "Hey! Buddy! Come online because you'll get suspicion if you don't!" comment.

I have pretty good vibes from him, though.

Definite possible wolf connection, here.

Ok, I'm even happier about my vote on Mastin now.

Are you really calling it scummy that I think Iamusername looks town-ish, and saying I want to hear more from him? I declared that you looked town-ish earlier, and that OGML looked townish earlier, and you didn't have a problem with either of those. OGML also earlier said he thought Iamusername looked town, and you had no problem with that either

There's clearly nothing wrong with either one of those things; there's nothing wrong me thinking someone looks town. SO your attack does not appear to be honestly motivated here.

You look like a struggling scum here, Mastin, trying to fight back and claw your way out any way you can.

[OhGodMyLife]

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

Pretty sure Mastin-wolf indicates Yos2-wolf. Yay bussing.

[Mastin]

Eh, could be

Without anything to disprove it, what stops you from believing it?

but I don't buy it.

Again, what stops you from believing the very logical point I make?

Based on what I saw in that game

Which isn't my best play as scum, mind you.

I think that, when you are scum, you post less because as scum

No. I've got meta to prove it--

Open 131--Vanilla. I fell behind, didn't post a great deal.

Newbie 763--I fell six pages behind. Townie.

Many other ongoing games.

Do your homework, Yos. I've been proven town in many games that are ongoing; look into my posts there and you'd see that this is normal.

you're paranoid about how anything you say might make you look bad

Answer me this, something I asked which you failed to answer:

WITHOUT PARTNERS TO DAYTALK TO, WHAT IS TO STOP ME FROM POSTING?!?

Let's look at my scum QT posts, shall we?

As you don't think I should lurk, I think I'll admit that I've seen some of the play in the game, but that I need to catch up. Something along these lines:

"Hai, there. I'm kinda sad nobody seemed to notice that I replaced Antihero. I've read a few of the early and later-on pages, so I know a few events in the game, yet I definitely need to read up on the rest."

Does that sound good? I'll wait for your confirmation.

Post this:
"Hai, there. I'm kinda sad nobody seemed to notice that I replaced Antihero.
Im here and Ill catch up as soon as possible."

I'm thinking of viewing Antihero's posts in isolation--if I do that, maybe I can turn some of his posts into breadcrumbs later on for my usage if there's something to suggest he's a power role. After all, I'm known for 'dropping four loafs' in my breadcrumb trail, so, again, it might be considered scummy if I don't breadcrumb. I've breadcrumbed as vanilla to be cop and gotten myself shot, and can always lie and say that I wasn't breadcrumbing at all.

But, more likely than not, I'll still (when it comes to mass-claim time) likely claim vanilla.

Thoughts?

(These will be VERY VITAL later on in the game)

---

On a side note, should I go with my 'reply to everything I find worthy' approach on the sixty plus pages of the game, or 'sum up my opinions' approach?
Should I blatantly lie about my opinion to side with rofl/Xyl? I personally believe that it'd be a bad idea, as previous games would show why I disagree with them. (Quite personally, I thought Xyl and rofl were two of the scum and that both you and DGB were town before I got my role PM)
Or should I go completely honest, no matter who it seems to attack?

Just pretend you are rereading the game and dont post anything yet.

Does that seem like someone who'd do this always as scum?
Heck no; I did it because we had daytalking abilities and I took advantage of them.

Need more?

I am thinking of posting this:
[what I'll say]

I informed the mod that I would be V/LA from Friday to at least Sunday, but I am back, now. Sadly, due to this, I have read very little. I haven't read the early pages of the game, but I browsed the pages after I replaced in, the last thing I saw being DGB being lynched. I apologize for the lack of content so far, but it will come in groups of long posts, each covering ~20 pages of the game with my thoughts so far.
When I do this, though, it can be one of two ways:
1: I give lots of content, commenting on everything
or
2: I point out whatever I find very interesting, along with general thoughts.
As soon as I get some feedback as to which method would be preferred, I'll start reading.



[/end what I will say]

Your thoughts?

I like your post, perfect entrance. The normal townie reaction after this situation is to look bad at the people pushing dgb lynch but not call them obv scum. Try not to ignore me or Empking too much. Treat me as kinda scummy at the beginning but after my defense of dgb you are less inclined to believe me as scum. Treat Empking as neutral. Then feel free to comment anything on the rest, specially say that Xyl looks bad.
--
Also, please dont post this : "As soon as I get some feedback as to which method would be preferred, I'll start reading."

Use the method you like for better "scumhuting". Comment on everything when you want to or point out anything interesting you find out. Dont let town control your methods.

Oh, I forgot:

A vital part of my early scum post:

Sure, I'll follow you. I'm generally a good player, and I definitely enjoy leading my team as both scum and town, as my strategies often do good in games such as this. However, I recognize when a player is of greater skill and experience than me, and when any of these are true, they have the advantage:
1: They've been playing the game since the beginning,
2: They know most of the players from experience,
3: They've already been leading when I replace in,
4: They already formulated strategies,
and so on. They're all true for you, so I'd be ready to follow you 'til you die.

As you don't think I should lurk, I think I'll admit that I've seen some of the play in the game, but that I need to catch up. Something along these lines:

"Hai, there. I'm kinda sad nobody seemed to notice that I replaced Antihero. I've read a few of the early and later-on pages, so I know a few events in the game, yet I definitely need to read up on the rest."

Does that sound good? I'll wait for your confirmation.

This is not the case this game, and I definitely would be leading. The ONLY people here who I might not try leading, pretty much, would be OGML, Yos, and Iamausername, mods I have played under.

Oh, this is important as well.

Xyl would also notice that I'm a bit short on time, recently. I've become less vocal due to it, and, well,

it's also a tactic to avoid being night-killed

.

:/

I didn't post only you; I mentioned image as well.
And then, the next mentions Xyl and Brian.
Not really an issue, in my opinion.

As for reasons, I'll likely give them when I catch up. I *am* behind...

GREATEST FEAR AS SCUM: Making a slip about knowing something I shouldn't know. That *really* seems to be a possible problem every time I post... (referring to my latest post)

Keep in mind that this was WITH Tajo's guidance.

Kay, until now youve done an awesome job.

And that fear is okay. I have it too. Everytime you post, try to reread and see if you are not slipping anything or if you dont feel to sure, let me know what you are posting so we can analise it.

No fair. I'm called scum for something I've done in two other games, and for being in more games than zwet, and being behind a lot. ;_;

Tajo, come back and post something in here, already. >_>

Anyway, what I next plan to say:

"GAH. Lost the weekend time due to real life issues. I needed the time to read...
Would anyone mind if I just started looking at the comments made within the last two or three pages?
Or alternatively, multiple people (to prevent bias) giving a rough graph of the events of the game?"

Mastin, please, stop looking for and posting excuses for not being able to contribute. Thats scummy.

You have to start "scumhuting". Ask questions to everyone, like in the other game we are together. Rolf and some others thinks that anithero was town so please you have to state suspicions before they realize you are playing the Im behind card.

Eventually you will have to vote image but first express your bad feelings regarding how useless SK and Empking are, the overall badd feeling Xyl has, the idea that you paranoid about elvis and rolf being scum together.

As I said, what about if you post here so we can analyse what are you going to post...

Mastin.

Im going to keep youy safe for some more hours but you have to come back and claim cop or doc.

Preferably doc.

PM me when you are online.

I ignored most of Tajo's response, other than the Doctor claim.

...

. . .

It...was...that...long...

That...long...
Too...long...
I screwed up...

No time to wait for you; I'm posting now with a doctor claim. I can't wait any longer. Sorry, Tajo.

Mastin
no wait.

It was too late; I had already claimed.

Read it all, if you want.

---
Want me to go into my Polygamist Mafia QT to further prove you wrong, Yos?

It's a common trait amoung scum, actually.

Which I was ONLY following because I had DAYTALKING ABILITIES.

I don't see how daytalking or not has anything to do with it.

IT MAKES A

HUGE

DIFFERENCE!

Without Daytalking, I am on my own, regardless of my alignment. I have no others to guide me. I have only myself. I have to be a leader, and if I were to be scum, to pray that my partner(s) follow subtle hints I give them.

Do you have a counter-example, of a game when you were scum and yet you were very active all game?

Look, I am almost never scum. If there were to be one, it'd be ongoing, Yos.

Well, that's part of it, sure.

Part?
No.
It's ALL of it.
I had people to lead me. Good players, who I put my confidence in their abilities.

I think this is also a part of why you're less active as scum then as town:

I know. It doesn't change the fact that I've also got a counter to that, Yos:

I believe, and always have, that long posts are pro-town for that VERY reason you linked. Look at 735, 742, or any of my other games, for that matter.
They're pro-town, because if you're mafia, it gives you more times to potentially slip up and expose yourself.
So, naturally, as scum, you want shorter posts to avoid slipping.

Look at my posts in there:
Fairly short.

Look at my posts here:
Fairly long.

And tell me your example is still valid, please. I DARE you to.

I think that that very problem, that fear that you might say something wrong as scum, inherently makes you post less when you're scum.

It also applies to post length. Meaning that I want shorter posts as scum.

Not the case here, Yos.

Pfft.

Yea, yea, shut up. I am sick and tired of people trying to metagame me in offense, yet discounting my defense with meta. I've done this several times before. (I'll ask the mod if I can give the link to an ongoing game where I died DAY ONE because of logic such as YOURS conflicting with MINE. Oh, did I mention I was town, then?)

You think you can just declare that metaing you won't work

In attack?

HECK FREAKING YES!

and therefore that anyone who suspects you for meta reasons will "earn your suspicions"?

Yes.
They're clinging to VERY weak excuses for attacking/voting me. Which is incredibly suspicious.

(Did I mention I think it's Yos-Iamausername?)

Everyone plays differently when they're scum from when they're town.

I don't.
Lynch all Lurkers?
Yea. I was mimicking my play in other games. Open 131, for example. It also happened in the game where I was lynched day one as town.

Everyone has certain patterns of play.

Not me.

Some people are harder to meta then others

NOBODY can Metagame Me in attack and have it work,
NOBODY.

Not even myself.

but I doubt there is anyone who is so perfect that metaing them is completly worthless.

You're looking right at him.

You "think" I am scum.
You are wrong.

You just found that person.
People in an ongoing game found that person (me).

Face it:
Metagaming Me in Attack Will Not Work.

Also, if there is a difference between your town meta and your scum meta

Oh, there isn't.

you are unlikely to be aware of it

I am PERFECTLY aware of my town meta, and can imitate it as scum.

Hence, YES, I *AM* aware of my meta.

so you claiming "METAING ME DOSN'T WORK" as a defence is complete crap.

READ ALL OF MY ONGOING GAMES. Until I get clearance from the mod, at least. One particular mini game shows full good and well why this statement holds true. GO LOOK BEFORE MAKING SUCH STATEMENTS.

Well, daytalking or not, scum always know too much, though; that's part of what makes them scum.

BUT I HAVE NO REASON TO BE CAUTIOUS IF I AM NOT ASKING MY PARTNER IF WHAT I AM SAYING IS ALRIGHT!
That's why it took so long to post in Lynch all Lurkers--
I was waiting for Tajo to approve of my messages.

NOT the case in other games, other than Polygamist Mafia and Ace/ekiM/Zaz.

There is nothing BS about my meta argument, and I have never "twisted your words" or "used bad logic" to my knowlege in this game.

Your Argument is Twisting my Words as Scum in Lynch all Lurkers, for what you describe is NOT the full truth.

Hence, it is BS.

heh.

Can't a guy have fun?
This argument is getting heated. Seriously heated. I love that kind of thing.

Oh, I'm sure you're having fun.

More fun than I'll ever have as scum, where fear will get the best of me.

Fear

dominates me as scum, especially when something bad happens. While I have the thrill of the challenge as scum, fear will always dominate over that.
As town, nope, not so much.

It's always fun to be fighting for your life.

Not nearly as much when you're scum.

More proof that I am, in fact, town.

That's irrelevent, though.

No, it's PERFECTLY relevant! It proves why I am town, having so much fun with being so close to death!

Also, your claim here

Well, it's true.

(which was that you apparently on some level lurked BECAUSE you wanted to be attacked, because you know you have a meta of lurking as scum)

I love being attacked as town. The thrill of the hunt and attacking the scum on my wagon, oh, it's so powerful.

seems to completly contradict your other claim that you do not have a meta of lurking as scum.

Oh, I don't.

It's just that others THINK I do.

I know that I don't lurk only as scum.

However, this is the THIRD game where I have been accused of it as town.

nods) Yup. I thought you were town day 1.

And your reversal from thinking I'm town to "ZOMG WHY ISN'T THIS SCUM DEAD YET" is INCREDIBLY scummy.

100% wrong.

Heck no.

If I think a player is scummy,
And suddenly think they are town the next,

Or vice versa,

It shows inconsistency. Inconsistency is a scum tell.
To suddenly reverse an opinion is one of the largest scum tells in existence.
I am fine with a gradual change.
"He's town"
"I think he's town."
"He's probably town, not sure, though."
"He might be town"
"He might be scum"
"He's probably scum"
"He's scum".

That is fine.
It's a slow change, over time.
A SUDDEN change, now, THAT is scummy!

Town should always be willing to change their minds.

Which they do gradually. Only scum have sudden reversals of opinions. And I stand firm by this as fact.

There are a lot of reasons for that;

And there are lots of reasons why SUDDENLY *REVERSING* an opinion is scummy as well.

the prime one being that, if people just keep going after the same suspects all game and trusting the same people all game, then it's very easy for the scum to manipulate the game by careful use of nightkills.

Again, I have no problem with gradual changes, which prevent this.

Sudden changes?

Still scummiest thing one can do.

Beyond that, changing your mind is much better at getting reactions and finding scum then never doing so.

Again,
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CHANGING ONE'S OPINION. IT IS WITH A

SUDDEN

CHANGE WHERE THE PROBLEMS LIE.

The scariest scumhunters are the people who think you're town, then suddenly flip on you and go after you based on some new piece of information;

More like the scummiest.

those are both the best at finding scum, and the best at screwing with scum's gameplans.

Gradual change-->Not scummy, still throws scum off.
Sudden change-->Scummiest thing someone can do.

I've gone so far in the past as to declare that consistancy itself is a scumtell.

And THAT is an EXTREMELY anti-town opinion.
Inconsistency is a SCUM TELL,
Consistency is a TOWN TELL.

Ok, I'm even happier about my vote on Mastin now.

Because I've nailed the remaining mafia man, AND nailed the werewolves.
Dang, I'm good.

Let's lynch Iamausername, Yos's scum partner.

Are you really calling it scummy that I think Iamusername looks town-ish, and saying I want to hear more from him?

Many people had not contributed a great deal at the time. Like me.

You address ONLY Iamausername.
And THAT is a scum tell.

You're also buddying up to Iamausername.

I declared that you looked town-ish earlier

And your switch is scummy.

and that OGML looked townish earlier

With my current thoughts, I am agreeing with this assessment.

and you didn't have a problem with either of those.

Because you were addressing other people at the same time.
You went OUT OF YOUR WAY to address ONLY Iamausername, which is INCREDIBLY scummy.

OGML also earlier said he thought Iamusername looked town, and you had no problem with that either

Because he was also addressing multiple people.

YOU, however, addressed ONLY Iamausername.

There's clearly nothing wrong with either one of those things;

Oh, yes.
Yes, there is:
The fact that you did it to ONLY Iamausername in a SINGLE OUT OF THE WAY POST.

there's nothing wrong me thinking someone looks town.

But to, OUT OF THE BLUE, state it WITH NO APPARENT REASON, THAT is scummy.

SO your attack does not appear to be honestly motivated here.

Oh, yes. It is. This is my true opinion. I NEVER lie about my opinions in Mafia games. EVER. Not as scum, not as town.

You look like a struggling scum here

No. Just town in a heated debate which I am enjoying very much. Thanks for the challenge, Yos. You can die tomorrow as caught scum.

trying to fight back and claw your way out any way you can.

Why give up as town?
It'd violate my moral code.
Especially since people wouldn't listen to me, DESPITE THE FACT THAT I HAVE THE SCUM NAILED ALREADY.

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

L-1, and I haven't even gotten the chance to type up why Yos and Iamausername are scum.

Pretty sure Mastin-wolf indicates Yos2-wolf.

...After what we've been through, that is SERIOUSLY your opinion?!?
What's wrong with you people?!? <_<

[Mastin]

Let's do a short version short:

-Yosarian2 and Iamausername are the werewolves.
Wulfy is likely the last Mafia Goon.

-Yos's meta case on me is full of holes and completely inaccurate.
-We are a LONG way away from deadline; GIVE ME SOME TIME TO BUILD A SOLID CASE ON MY SUSPECTS.
-Give me some time to ask the Mod a question or two vital to my defense.
-The case of a Yos-Mastin pair is absolute ludicrous.
-Anyone who hammers me before I have had a chance to explain why Yosarian and Iamausername are the scum...should fall under heavy scrutiny, for I could be wrong with this opinion.

[Wulfy]

Let's do a short version short:


1a Yosarian2 and Iamausername are the werewolves.
1b Wulfy is likely the last Mafia Goon.

2 Yos's meta case on me is full of holes and completely inaccurate.

3 We are a LONG way away from deadline; GIVE ME SOME TIME TO BUILD A SOLID CASE ON MY SUSPECTS.
4 Give me some time to ask the Mod a question or two vital to my defense.
5 The case of a Yos-Mastin pair is absolute ludicrous.
6 Anyone who hammers me before I have had a chance to explain why Yosarian and Iamausername are the scum...should fall under heavy scrutiny, for I could be wrong with this opinion.

I numbered the above.
1a: Okay...I'm listening. Give me a case and I'll see what I think."
1b: This is false.
2: Hm.... I don't know about this exactly, and your sole defense is meta... I think your play, regardless of alignment would be to lose the meta defense and just constantly play aggressive. Oh, and post in some sort of understandable format.
3. You deserve this, I agree.
4. Bah?
5. I can agree with this since I don't see it. I feel that Yos2 was going at you pretty heavily, and while I thought his post was really scummy, after I understood the context, I realized he was actually slamming you with meta (which is apparently your favorite defense as a cursory glance of your play history shows.)
6. You are correct that Yos2 and UN could be scum. I would like to hear this. I don't think whoever hammers you is scum, since I feel comfortable you are scum.

Out of some good faith, however, I will temporarily suspend my vote.

Unvote

You might have a really strong point, so I would like to withhold my vote to see if you can prove that with a good, logical case. I must warn you though, I don't buy this meta defense bull shit. (Pardon the expression.)

[Wulfy]

Just popping in from my BlackBerry to mention that I am nearing 100% certainty on Yos2 being a bad guy of some flavor.

Wulfy please explain why Mastin and Yos2 could not be partners.

I don't think Yos2 would be going on Mastin so hard if they were. It isn't impossible, but on my reading it, I just don't see it at all.*

*As below, after reading early page 11, I conceived of how it was possible. This is a response to the above. My thought changes below, and I am aware of that.

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

Pretty sure Mastin-wolf indicates Yos2-wolf. Yay bussing.

I still disagree because of above, but it isn't impossible. I suppose at this point, however, Mastin appears so scummy, that a partner would bus pretty hard. I guess if Yos2 knew that Mastin was scum, he could have been hard on Mastin (hoping for a masterstroke-esque defense?) because of the disappearing act yesterday.

Ebwop as this was meant to go first.

[Sotty7]

You weren't on the Kham wagon either so all this applies to you too right?

Yes, I suppose it does. I am also a potential mafia, but from my point of view it's clear that I am not mafia.

Yeah, I think you are wolf. Not sure who I would peg as the last mafia.

It's evidence that you are a poss wolf so yes I am going to bring it up again. I know you would rather we ignored it, but no. Also, how exactly did we “deal” with it?

Also my vote is “weakish”? Now that's weak.

I gave an explanation why I voted for CJ, so I no longer feel the need to discuss about it.

And judging from your post 231, the only reason why you voted for me was because I "knew" that either you or Caboose is mafia. So yes, I would call that a weak reason.

Eh.. I can give you this. I should have posted my concerns about your reactions to the seer claim also factored into my vote. What I quoted was just enough to push me over the edge and vote you.

Is switching targets scummy?

Occasionally switching targets?
No.

Often switching targets?
Yes.
If my memory is correct, and you often have switched targets, then, yes, it is scummy.

Why is one scummy and not the other?

If your memory is correct? Why didn't you check first before making the statement?

Dunno about Yos, but you're already at least half-wrong. I'm alone, I have no buddies, I'm just a pro-town player who doesn't have a buddy. I *wish* I did. It'd be so fun, being the last scum alive.
Nope.
It'd be good for me to be a werewolf due to how close they are to winning.

Ha. I wish.

And, really.
I, as a werewolf...
Would kill players who I know to be good.
OGML, Yos, and Iamausername all fit that category--I've spectated some games they are in, know they're good, and have played games modded by them.

The rest of you...really, not that much.
Kore was not a night-kill I'd do. Kore was a suspect, and the Werewolves killed Kore, anyway.

Icky WIFOM.

Not sure what to make of Yos v Mastin. Seems to be meta v meta, not a fan of that at all. Interested in seeing Mastin's cases however.

[iamausername]

Mastin, what makes you think that scum can't daytalk in this game?

[Datadanne]

Quote problems fixed. (I hope.)

Scum can daytalk.

I locked the quicktopic, As 2/3 Mafia is dead.

I can´t wait until Post-Game!

[Mastin]

1: Quotes not fixed. <_<
2: Mod approved it. Read and watch 'em lynch me as town. There goes Yos's meta.
3: Working on responding to new stuff,
4: And to writing the case on Iamausername/Yosarian2.

[Yosarian2]

I'll look at some other games, Mastin.

However, you can get as angry as you want; you just saying over and over again "YOU CAN NOT META ME" is NOT a defense.

Also, I don't care what you think; town can, and should, suddenly and on a dime be willing to completly and 100% change their minds when new evidence warrents it. It's just better for the town. You repeated it like 4 times here:

Sudden changes?

Still scummiest thing one can do.

Beyond that, changing your mind is much better at getting reactions and finding scum then never doing so.

Again,
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CHANGING ONE'S OPINION. IT IS WITH A SUDDEN CHANGE WHERE THE PROBLEMS LIE.

The scariest scumhunters are the people who think you're town, then suddenly flip on you and go after you based on some new piece of information;

More like the scummiest.

those are both the best at finding scum, and the best at screwing with scum's gameplans.

Gradual change-->Not scummy, still throws scum off.
Sudden change-->Scummiest thing someone can do.

I've gone so far in the past as to declare that consistancy itself is a scumtell.

And THAT is an EXTREMELY anti-town opinion.
Inconsistency is a SCUM TELL,
Consistency is a TOWN TELL.

But you never gave a *REASON* why a pro-town person changing their mind is bad for the town. I gave several reasons why I play this way as town, and why it is better for the town to do so; all you did was repeat over and over again your (incorrect) assertion that it's somehow scummy and/or anti-town, but you never gave a single reason WHY town shouldn't act like that.

My guess? You are scum and you decided not to nightkill me earlier in the game because I had earlier in the game said I thought you were town, and now you're pissed off I changed my mind. Which is exactally why pro-town people SHOULD be unpredictable, and should change their minds.

[Datadanne]

GAH! OMG I CAN `T MAKE POSTS 100% RIGHT!

[Wulfy]

You weren't on the Kham wagon either so all this applies to you too right?

Yes, I suppose it does. I am also a potential mafia, but from my point of view it's clear that I am not mafia.

Yeah, I think you are wolf. Not sure who I would peg as the last mafia.

This bothers me because you seem unconcerned with the other wolf. This means that either you know who the other wolf is OR you are bussing your partner so didn't think of it. This could be a slip, but I may be reading too much into it.

Also, Two days (about) is more than enough.

Vote Mastin

If someone agrees with my thoughts on Sotty, do tell. I'm not sure if that is just me reading the wording too closely, but I think that the odds Sotty could potentially be bussing are high (based on wording, again, I need other's opinions on that.)

[Sotty7]

You weren't on the Kham wagon either so all this applies to you too right?

Yes, I suppose it does. I am also a potential mafia, but from my point of view it's clear that I am not mafia.

Yeah, I think you are wolf. Not sure who I would peg as the last mafia.

This bothers me because you seem unconcerned with the other wolf. This means that either you know who the other wolf is OR you are bussing your partner so didn't think of it. This could be a slip, but I may be reading too much into it.

I don't see what you are trying to say. If anything Tar slipped. He said that it's clear he's not mafia and I agreed with him and said that I think he is a wolf. That was my whole point, that he slipped, almost gloating he is not the last of the scum team so that makes him a wolf. I then went on to say that "I don't know who I would peg as the last mafia" as a continuing thought about the mafia group that Tar brought up by stating "it's clear I'm not mafia".

You're reaching here.

[Mastin]

...I messed something up in real life. And it needs SERIOUS attention.

V/LA until Thursday.

I can post a bit in most of my games, but in this one...I'm building a case. There'd be no point in posting it small sections at a time, it'd take a great deal of time, be a waste, etc.

[Wulfy]

I see your point Sotty. It just seemed that your concern is just on finding 1 wolf (versus 2), but I really understand now since you explained conversation now. I feel silly for finding it suspicious actually.

[Caboose]

In closed games there's at least a chance that there are no other killing forces, and if there are, you usually know it by day 2. And not having a NK means that your only way to get rid of the other scum group is by lynching, which means that they can potentially be out there for a long time. And lynching one of your own is automatically a free round for the other scum group.

So, you're thinking it can just be assumed that scum will always bus?

This bothers me because you seem unconcerned with the other wolf. This means that either you know who the other wolf is OR you are bussing your partner so didn't think of it. This could be a slip, but I may be reading too much into it.

Reach?

Yes, I suppose it does. I am also a potential mafia, but from my point of view it's clear that I am not mafia.

Such a convincing arguement.

And judging from your post 231, the only reason why you voted for me was because I "knew" that either you or Caboose is mafia. So yes, I would call that a weak reason.

Implying extra knowledge in a game of informed minority vs another informed minority vs uninformed majority is a weak reason for a vote?
Since when?

[Tarballs]

So, you're thinking it can just be assumed that scum will always bus?

I have no idea where you got that impression.

This bothers me because you seem unconcerned with the other wolf. This means that either you know who the other wolf is OR you are bussing your partner so didn't think of it. This could be a slip, but I may be reading too much into it.

Reach?

Wulfy's the one who's reaching, not me. Check your quotes.

Yes, I suppose it does. I am also a potential mafia, but from my point of view it's clear that I am not mafia.

Such a convincing arguement.

I had to answer something to Sotty (well, maybe didn't need to, but wanted to, anyhow) and how am I supposed to prove anything to anyone? The only possible method would get me modkilled. And it's not like I'm the only one using that kind of arguments. For instance, just look how

And judging from your post 231, the only reason why you voted for me was because I "knew" that either you or Caboose is mafia. So yes, I would call that a weak reason.

Implying extra knowledge in a game of informed minority vs another informed minority vs uninformed majority is a weak reason for a vote?
Since when?

I didn't say it's a weak reason in general. But in this case it is, because if I was wolf, it would be impossible for me to know who the mafia are. Only way for me to know who the mafia are is that I'm mafia myself.


Now, if I could finally stop this near-useless arguing with my mafia suspects, I'd like to actually hunt some wolves.

First:

Nobody should hammer Mastin before he gets to post his case. Don't even think about it.

Secondly:

Mastin and OGML are suspicious of Yos, yet both of them are voting for a person who they suspect to be Yos's scum partner. I think it would be more beneficial for both of you to lynch Yos instead, yet I'm getting the feeling that you seem to be afraid(?) to lynch him at this point. Why is this?

Thirdly:

iamausername has been really under the radar in this game. Not sure if it means anything, though. But more analysis would be much appreciated.

[Yosarian2]

First:

Nobody should hammer Mastin before he gets to post his case. Don't even think about it.

Agreed. We can wait until Thursday, I want to hear what he has to say.

Secondly:

Mastin and OGML are suspicious of Yos, yet both of them are voting for a person who they suspect to be Yos's scum partner. I think it would be more beneficial for both of you to lynch Yos instead, yet I'm getting the feeling that you seem to be afraid(?) to lynch him at this point. Why is this?

Now, this is scummy. Why are you trying to direct people to lynch me? You're not voting me, and you really haven't attacked me at all; but it seems like you want other people to wagon me, and it looks like a scummy attempt to manipulate pro-town people into fighting each other. Am I missing something here?