Mafia 97 - Day Night Mafia, Game Over

[BloodCovenent]

Blood's Post 205 - I'm sorry, did you ask me something?

I did not understand at all, what any of these had to do with the game at the time being, and really still don't. Do you think you could expand on them still?

Reckoner's Post 176 - My apologies. I missed your vote on MM.

Reckoner's Post 177 - RVS/Initiation/Me trying to jump into the game. As far as I know, neither of us had votes on us and neither of us were voting anyone else.

Emp's Alt's Post 181 - I missed it...?

---

I'm not going to waste the time to get in a quote war with BC, I'll leave it up to others to decide who has the better arguments.

can you at least answer This one.

Vote Count #9

BloodCovenent - 4 (Bekkatha, MonkeyMan576, CJMiller, Sando)
canadianbovine - 1 (BloodCovenent)
CJMiller - 4 (DIDO, nhammen, falkomagno, lobstermania)
lobstermania - 1 (Empking)
looker - 1 (Platypus_Dude)
MonkeyMan576 - 2 (xRECKONERx, Snow White)
xRECKONERx - 2 (canadianbovine, Kise)
Wiirdo - 1 (looker)

Not Voting: Scott Brosius, Wiirdo

Deadline is July 13th.

[MonkeyMan576]

Blood's Post 205 - I'm sorry, did you ask me something?

I did not understand at all, what any of these had to do with the game at the time being, and really still don't. Do you think you could expand on them still?

Reckoner's Post 176 - My apologies. I missed your vote on MM.

Reckoner's Post 177 - RVS/Initiation/Me trying to jump into the game. As far as I know, neither of us had votes on us and neither of us were voting anyone else.

Emp's Alt's Post 181 - I missed it...?

---

I'm not going to waste the time to get in a quote war with BC, I'll leave it up to others to decide who has the better arguments.

can you at least answer This one.

Don't hold your breath. I've already answered more than I should.

[nhammen]

Calling a

2nd

3rd vote on someone a bandwagon...usually bandwagons in the scummy sense is when someone is pushing a lynch.

Fixed because you can't read.

Sure...... Way to count...?

Criticizing the vote without actually providing any actual content reason.

Criticizing the attack that was made on him because he was calling two votes a wagon, when in actuality he was calling three votes a wagon. An attack that you have repeated after it was defused...

And now, to Monkies post, i practically have to defend myself, otherwise i look like a loser.

Defending yourself doesn't make you scummy. Defending yourself poorly does. Usually only scum are afraid to defend themselves.

He's saying not defending himself will be bad, and the you attack him by agreeing with that statement!?!?

You have repeatedly took quotes out of context and used extremely unsound reasoning. You claim that his defences are just him "saying that it's up to him which of his statements are allowed to be attacked and what's not." But you are saying that it's up to you which of his statements are valid and which aren't. You repeatedly refuse to answer questions directed at you:

I have a few questions for you:
You mention that he is using hyperbole. In an earlier post, you mentioned that he used bad logic. Can you show me an example of each?

Also, we have heard your case against BC multiple times. Other than that, the only player you have mentioned is CJ. Other than BC and CJ, who do you find most scummy, and who do you find most town?

Firstly MM thank you for providing your posts. But like Nhammen i want to hear who else you suspect and why.

I'm not going to waste the time to get in a quote war with BC, I'll leave it up to others to decide who has the better arguments.

Don't hold your breath. I've already answered more than I should.

I would say that no scum would be stupid enough to act this scummy, but "too scummy to be scum" is a logical fallacy. I've let you go far too long.

unvote
vote: MonkeyMan

[MonkeyMan576]

I've had questions thrown at me left and right. If I didn't answer it it's because I didn't see it, not that I'm avoiding it.

You mention that he is using hyperbole. In an earlier post, you mentioned that he used bad logic. Can you show me an example of each?

See my earlier responce to BC.

Also, we have heard your case against BC multiple times. Other than that, the only player you have mentioned is CJ. Other than BC and CJ, who do you find most scummy, and who do you find most town?

Those are the two mainscummies. It's only day one. As far as town, I'd say Platypus Dude and maybe Kise.

[BloodCovenent]

As I was rereading, i found a few things.
1) Constant signs of arrogance by MM.

Don't hold your breath. I've already answered more than I should.

You OMGUS me and I'm supposed to rebuttal it? You accuse me of "changing my case", when in fact I am adding to it. It's not my fault you continue to get scummier and scummier.

It's nice how the person that's being wagoned gets to choose what is relavant and not...

Vote: MonkeyMan

So, for like the fourth time now,

please point out exactly where you saw the OMGUS

. Oh, and while you're at it, the "3 actions of scumminess", too.

I already did. Please stop acting helpless.

I'm not required to respond to every word you said. I responded to what I felt was relevant. Your first responce to being attacked is to OMGUS, so I feel that you're probably scum. But, like you said, you're not worried about looking that way, so it shouldn't bother you.

Vote: MM

I see no overeaction.

Have you actually read his posts? He admits to overreacting.

---

2)Just thought I'd answer this overlooked accusation directed towards me.

You're allowed to defend yourself, but OMGUSing is generally scummy. Not to mention admitting you don't care about acting pro-town.

i never said that I cared about acting pro-town, i said that i didn't care about looking scummy. Post 64.

Besides the fact that your taking my quote out of context. Also, you said that you, personally would not want to look scummy,

as a town player, i have nothing to hide.

If I get lynched, oh well, as long as i help the town destroy scum, and the town wins, i'll be happy.

In some games, people are called out for acting too-townie (yes a horrible argument), i would rather you take my posts for what they are. I'm trying to get a town victory, through my defense on attacks, i have somewhat been able to scum hunt in my defense.

---

3)

Personally, I'd be more worried about looking like scum than looking like a loser...

hmm.. you don't know me. I like to be loved [/quote]
I'd say BC should have said, 'I'd look like scum' instead of loser. MM did twist the words a little, but BC responded to it in a bad way.[/quote]

Just thought I'd mention this too. If I had said what you suggested, I still would have been under fire.

[Platypus_Dude]

1) Constant signs of arrogance by MM.

Is arrogance a scum tell or is this ad hominem? If arrogance is a scumtell, can you post at least 1 example that proves this?

And now, to Monkies post, i practically

have

to defend myself, otherwise i look like a loser.

Personally, I'd be more worried about looking like scum than looking like a loser...

hmm.. you don't know me. I like to be loved

I'd say BC should have said, 'I'd look like scum' instead of loser. MM did twist the words a little, but BC responded to it in a bad way.

First off, you had me saying what MM said.

Just thought I'd mention this too. If I had said what you suggested, I still would have been under fire.

It's not my fault you defended a random vote.

I'll reread the BC/MM quote war thing sometime later.

It seems Canadianbovine is going into active lurking.

[Scott Brosius]

My biggest scum suspicions are bovine and CJMiller. CJ for obvious reasons, hopping from wagon to wagon. Bovine reacted in a similar fashion as I did to Konowa (now reckoner) when he placed a second vote on someone without a reason. I voted Konowa since he gave no reason, bovine went after the fact that he placed the second vote on someone and started a wagon in the RVS. Then in response to Snow White

As a town member, you are hindering yourself by not using your vote. The vote is the only power you have as a townie besides the post. By not using your vote, you are not being a productive townie.

I'm not sure if eager is the right word. I'm not eager for you to vote, i just find it strange that a member of the town would not want to use one of there two powers.

you are afraid of voting off a townie?
How can you be afraid of a mislynch this early in the game? there is no way that

9 players are going to accidentally quicklynch someone without making sure they're town. Your excuse of "being afraid of voting for a townie" is null, there is no risk at this point of the game.

The last paragraph seems like a contradiction for what he was attacking konowa for earlier in the game. Now bovine is NOT worried about a quicklynch, even though he jumped on konowa for that reason.

Getting scum leans from empking, wiirdo, and looker, but none have posted enough to warrant a vote.

I didn't like how the covenent wagon formed so quickly and early. He didn't do anything extremely scummy to warrant 5 votes, so I'm wondering if there were any scum jumping on the wagon early hoping for a quicklynch. His overreaction in the RVS I initally took as an attempt at humor, and he seemed to confirm that

Getting town vibes from BC, snow white, bekk

Vote: canadianbovine

[Looker]

nhammen's Post 217- Hyprocisy=Scumtell...? <--- But that's assuming you have a reason for denoting my actions as hypocritical. Do you?

BC's Post 225 - Those posts that you pointed out were answers to questions posed against me. Is it that you checked the links/posts and

still

don't understand?

[xRECKONERx]

So, uh... nothing on MonkeyMan, Scott?

>_______________>

[BloodCovenent]

1) Constant signs of arrogance by MM.

Is arrogance a scum tell or is this ad hominem? If arrogance is a scumtell, can you post at least 1 example that proves this?

No, but attitude change can be a scum-tell.

[xRECKONERx]

Also: CB & Kise, why are your votes still on me?

[canadianbovine]

Also: CB & Kise, why are your votes still on me?

i admit i haven't been paying well attention to this game, paying more attention to mini 807.

unvote

.

i'm going to try to reread this game while my other game is in night.

is there something you would like me to respond to from that post, scott?

[xRECKONERx]

Where is CJMiller?

@Sando, @Bekk:
What is the scummiest thing BC has done for you to have your votes on him?

[Sando]

@Sando
What is the scummiest thing BC has done for you to have your votes on him?

It's the way that BC has defended himself. When initially attacked he over-reacted on P1 and 2, then just attacked his attackers. If you're working in the best interests of town, you don't merely attack people for attacking you, even if you 'know' you're town and anyone attacking you 'must' be scum, it's still not good.

BC stopped doing this, I think I commented in my first post that his posts were getting better. Now that it has blown up between him and MM, BC seems to have reverted to merely attacking whoever is attacking him. It's not good for town, I find it scummy to basically go all out to try and avoid a lynch on yourself while ignoring a large proportion of the players.

Some of MM's attacks are fairly thinly veiled misrep's. His accusation that BC has admitted to over-reacting seems like a pretty clear misrep of an obviously sarcastic comment. However, I think MM is right in saying that BC over-reacted. It would not surprise me to find MM is scum, taking a semi-valid case against BC and trying to stretch it into a lynching case. However, I think looking at motives before actions is bad, and I believe BCs actions are the scummiest of everyone. I think MM has made some mistakes, but his actions don't seem overly scummy, he merely seems to me to have a scum-motive for some of his posts, and in my experience this is a bad barometer early in the game.

[xRECKONERx]

However, I think MM is right in saying that BC over-reacted.

Mind giving some examples, chief?

[Empking's Alt]

CJ: Second scummiest thing BC did?

[Snow White]

Unvote MonkeyMan576, Vote Sando

Im getting a very innocent reading on BloodCovenent in contrast to your opinion.

@Sando. Yes, you did comment on BC's actions before and i agreed with that post but the person who has kept at him has been MonkeyMan576 who appears either Mafia or an overly stubborn innocent. I cant see how you think BC is guilty because everything he has argued has checked out in my opinion. He has defended himself well in the past few pages in my opinion and im startled to fin that you have now placed your vote on him. Equally im tired of this consistent MM and BC exchange but if you want to avoid looking scummmy in your eyes i will ask you to explain why you did not think BC's first posts were not made in humor. Lastly, MM has continued to persecute BC so why wouldnt he attack directly back?

I can see several contradictions, you say you see the over reaction of BC and that he attacked MM behind BC's words and then in post 238 you say you seen the sarcastic humour BC intended to use.

You have chosen BC's defense and "over reaction" over MM's twisting of quotes and words. Which to me is confusing.

And then you go on to say it would not surprise you if MM is scum. Why? Do you think he is scum? If so why is your vote on BC?

@MonkeyMan576. advising you if you are innocent to think clearly. Putting aside your suspicion of BC for the minute. (because i think we've worn it out and i would like to get the focus, and try to read, someone else) What is so suspicious about CJMiller and looker?

@BC. MM's "arrogance" is no reflection on his alignment. How has MM's attitude changed?

Getting innocent vibes from MM, BC, XRECKONERX.

Scummy vibes: Platypus_Dude, Canadian Bovine, Sando.

[lobstermania]

Overwhelmed with work, and having trouble keeping up. I'm sorry. Working on this game, but can replace if preferred.

[Platypus_Dude]

Snow White: Please post why you read people the way you do, otherwise it means almost nothing.

Hyprocisy=Scumtell...? <--- But that's assuming you have a reason for denoting my actions as hypocritical. Do you?

You have around 3 posts. You aren't really one that should comment on activity.

[Sando]

Equally im tired of this consistent MM and BC exchange but if you want to avoid looking scummmy in your eyes i will ask you to explain why you did not think BC's first posts were not made in humor.

I thought this was in ‘humour’ (read: sarcasm):

I AM NOT OVERREACTING AT ALL!!!!

I didn’t think much else was BC kidding around. Post 19 was BC justifying an RVS vote, as well as attacking someone else for their RVS vote on BC. Post 29 was BC getting upset over an early bandwagon on himself. And in post 29 he says he wants to defend his ‘case’. Considering it was RVS, and he voted you based on the current season, I see absolutely no reason for him to defend it. All of these were over-reactions in my book.

These are the examples you were after xRECKONERx?

Lastly, MM has continued to persecute BC so why wouldnt he attack directly back?

Because that is not a good way to scumhunt. If someone is attacking me (in this case, you), then I will look at their arguments and respond to them appropriately, I wont immediately assume that they are scum just because they are attacking me. BC seems more interested in not being lynched than in scumhunting, this is in itself, scummy.

I can see several contradictions, you say you see the over reaction of BC and that he attacked MM behind BC's words and then in post 238 you say you seen the sarcastic humour BC intended to use.

For starters, it’s only a contradiction because you’ve added the word ‘humour’ to my argument, which I don’t think I ever did, and I don’t see why you’re drawing a line between sarcastic and humorous in any case. Sarcasm is often referred to as the lowest form of wit, and I tend to use it in a fairly scathing and decidedly un-funny way. Me saying sarcastic isn’t me saying ‘sarcastic humour’, they are not the same thing.

And then you go on to say it would not surprise you if MM is scum. Why? Do you think he is scum? If so why is your vote on BC?

A third of my post was talking about this, and you seriously want me to restate it?

On the subject of BC, I find his not voting MM while attacking him every time MM attacks BC, and this comment

Just thought I'd mention this too. If I had said what you suggested, I still would have been under fire.

to be consistent with BC being more worried about the perception of himself than in scumhunting, I find this scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

@MonkeyMan576. advising you if you are innocent to think clearly. Putting aside your suspicion of BC for the minute. (because i think we've worn it out and i would like to get the focus, and try to read, someone else) What is so suspicious about CJMiller and looker?

I don't appreciate being told I'm not thinking clearly, which I am. You can't insult someone in one sentence, then demand that they answer your questions the next. I've already explained that CJMiller's OMGUS was blatant and I don't recall attacking looker.

[Bekkatha]

first off sorry I've been away! My computer hasn't been working.

my vote on BC... I honestly partially forgot about it. It was a random vote at the beginning.

Unvote

I don't like the bandwagon that has formed on BC. To be honest, the whole MM and BC argument isn't going anywhere. Old disputes are just continually repeated either directly with the quotes or simply re worded. MM, either get a new argument against BC or drop it because these arguments aren't doing whatever you intended them to. Unless you wanted people to be focused on a false dispute instead of scum hunting... but I'm not sure what your reasoning is.

[Kise]

Also: CB & Kise, why are your votes still on me?

Because you haven't done anything that shows me a pro-town motivation. You're doing nothing other than keeping others busy by asking them questions, so, in a sense, this tactic could be used to take the heat off of you.

All I'm saying, Reck, is that I wouldn't trust you in LyLo.

That's too much vote-hopping for my liking, Snow. I see a petty attack on Sando over his use of terms.

Not sticking/buddying up to him, but he makes a good point about effective ways to scumhunt. There was cleary some OMGUS-driven accusations with BC, more or less. The dust seems to be settling, slowly..

@lobster - Still hoping you could answer that question, por favor.

[xRECKONERx]

That's weak reasoning. There are plenty of people you could attribute the "all you're doing is asking questions" thing too. Simply put, I've done nothing worthy of a vote, and I really don't think Konoma did anything incredibly scummy either.

Oh, and "keeping others busy by asking them questions" is also sometimes called scumhunting.

[BloodCovenent]

Also: CB & Kise, why are your votes still on me?

Because you haven't done anything that shows me a pro-town motivation. You're doing nothing other than keeping others busy by asking them questions, so, in a sense, this tactic could be used to take the heat off of you.

All I'm saying, Reck, is that I wouldn't trust you in LyLo.

I would trust reck in lylo, i'm getting a pro-town vibe from him.