Mafia 97 - Day Night Mafia, Game Over

[DTMaster]

@Lobser

I think SSK was trying to distract us with his neutral result though (and try to change the lynch result from himself to sabre). He was scum after all. What are your thoughts on this since I don't think it's warrant enough for a FoS/Vote just based on that.

I agree with the last message that BM posted though, Kise did too many suspicious acts that would have benefited scum over town. It's too early to let him off the case for that. Time to reexamine the thread (and catch up on my reading) once again.

Vote: Kise

---

Vote Count:

saberwolf(1)

- BloodCovenent

Kise(1)

- DTMaster

Not Voting(8)

- Bekkatha, iPeanut, Kise, lobstermania, Platypus_Dude, Sando, saberwolf, xRECKONERx

6 to Lynch
4 to Lynch at Deadline

Deadline:

2/10/09 13:35 Central Time

[BloodCovenent]

I agree with BloodCovenent. My suspicion today starts with saberwolf after MafiaSSK's "Neutral" result on him in Post # 794....

FoS: saberwolf

What the crap? You're going to go with a scum player that fake-claimed? And you're going to assume that he was correct in his assumptions?

Unvote:
Vote: Lobstermania

[Sando]

I got an innocent, it doesn't matter who it was.

But, I am going to start off a

vote: saberwolf

Yes it does, if you die and then we kill all the day-mafia, we know that the person you investigate is innocent.

I don't see how it can hurt town, given we know that an 'innocent' actually just means 'not night-mafia'.

I still hold my suspicions of Kise, but I'd like to see the response from Lobster regarding why the neutral 'result' is a scum-tell.

[BloodCovenent]

I got an innocent, it doesn't matter who it was.

But, I am going to start off a

vote: saberwolf

Yes it does, if you die and then we kill all the day-mafia, we know that the person you investigate is innocent.

I don't see how it can hurt town, given we know that an 'innocent' actually just means 'not night-mafia'.

I still hold my suspicions of Kise, but I'd like to see the response from Lobster regarding why the neutral 'result' is a scum-tell.

very well, it was reck.

[lobstermania]

I agree with BloodCovenent. My suspicion today starts with saberwolf after MafiaSSK's "Neutral" result on him in Post # 794....
FoS: saberwolf

What the crap? You're going to go with a scum player that fake-claimed? And you're going to assume that he was correct in his assumptions?
Unvote:
Vote: Lobstermania

I've never heard of a cop getting a "neutral" result before. I checked the wiki but couldn't find anything about it (though perhaps I'm still missing something). "Neutral" seems like a safe cover to try and make his partner look more town. We weren't able to gain much info when CB flipped scum, so hopefully we can find some better connections between SSK and the day scum.

So why are you voting saberwolf, BC?

[BloodCovenent]

So why are you voting saberwolf, BC?

I'm voting you.

[xRECKONERx]

BC, you bastard, you investigated me!

[lobstermania]

So why are you voting saberwolf, BC?

I'm voting you.

EBWOP: "why

were

you voting saberwolf, BC?"

[Kise]

If at least 1 scum does not get lynched/killed before D5, I suggest a massclaim tomorrow. With the doc gone, the masons gone, and the cop already outed, I see why no one else is in danger of dying. I'm still thinking there's 3-4 scum total in this game, so tomorrow would be the best day to massclaim.

Vote: Sando

for not hammering after we caught SSK in a lie. Also,

FoS: Platy

based on small things from days 1 & 2 (heckling Snow w/ CB; not being fussed at for day-vig speculation).

[saberwolf]

vote: lobstermania

for going on a bogus claim by scum in an attempt to lynch me.

[lobstermania]

vote: lobstermania

for going on a bogus claim by scum in an attempt to lynch me.

So then explain to me why SSK would give you a "neutral" result as a fake cop. This is what I'm hung up on.

[saberwolf]

because SSK is an idiot and couldnt even fakeclaim properly.

whats so hard to understand about that?

[lobstermania]

because SSK is an idiot and couldnt even fakeclaim properly.

whats so hard to understand about that?

Nothing. I was just really struck by the "neutral" aspect of the failclaim.

I'm still unimpressed with Kise.

[DTMaster]

@Sando
Don't forget the godfather debate. This supports the whole "the best results to get are guilties".

@Lobster
If I hadn't counter claimed SK speculations began propping up (see Reck's 801) when it wasn't even plausible to have one. This is all the evidence I need to support confusion among the town.

@Kise
I see no issues with the mass claim in that situation you outlined. I also went back and Sando did post an analytical post. But if you read his 824 SSK's neutral did a number on him. It makes no sense from a real day cop claim, and it's too bloody obv. scum for a fake day cop claim.

Then again the latter would assume you would lynch SSK then go to sabre if SSK did turn out to be the cop. Sabre's 861 summarizes this point clearly.

This post reads more townie then scummy to me right now, but your day 2 actions were really poor.

@Ipeanut
Current thoughts? I haven't seen you post in a loong time. Where are you?

[DTMaster]

err EBWOP: Should be read "need to support the argument that SSK was spreading confusion among the town."

[Sando]

@Sando
Don't forget the godfather debate. This supports the whole "the best results to get are guilties".

You're right, I did forget that. The point still stands though, that as long as we remember that an 'innocent' isn't a true 'innocent', then it's to our benefit to know the person.

I find it unlikely that a cop that can only investigate 1/2 of the scum to begin with, for some of those 1/2 to be uninvestigatable would be OTT. Then again, since town don't believe innocent results to begin with, a godfather wouldn't be automatically off the hook like normal.

With the doc gone, the masons gone, and the cop already outed, I see why no one else is in danger of dying.

It makes sense that if there is a night-cop, there's a day-cop. It makes sense that if there's a day-doc, there's a night-doc, especially given BC hasn't died.

Given this has been discussed before, why do you keep referring to these roles in the singular? We know it's a possibility, and it seems BC is being left alive for a reason, and given how harsh it would be to have a cop against night-scum and not day-scum, that's another reason for there to be a day-cop.

You've been role-fishing at every single opportunity this game. You should clearly be our lynch today.

Vote: Kise

[iPeanut]

@Ipeanut
Current thoughts? I haven't seen you post in a loong time. Where are you?

I've got the back to school blues here. Real brief, bus comes in a few minutes and I'm still not dressed. DX I'll hopefully get something more content-y when I get back, but here's a placeholder:

SSK wasn't playing a very good game there. Something about that just doesn't strike me well. I'm going to check a few of his previous games. The neutral thing is weird to me, as well, but he flipped scum. I'm more willing to just let it go because of that than have it linger and screw up the town.

Scott was an odd choice on the part of the Day Mafia, I think, since a few of us had him lined up for the noose. On that note, I may also be missing something, and I'm going to go back and check out who the dead had beef with. More on that later.

Other than that, the massclaim approach seems like a good idea at the proposed time. I wouldn't object to it, though I would worry a little more about losing our PRs one way or another.

[Platypus_Dude]

I now agree with what Scott said about the scum trying to hit the other. Unless the scum have a role-seeing power, the day mafia appears to be trying to kill the night mafia. This makes me believe that there are 3 scum per team as I don't think the day mafia would kill off the night mafia this 'early'.

As for voting, I believe it could be mylo. If I'm certain enough I will be voting though. I'm not sure for who exactly right now, but my gut says lobster.

[DTMaster]

@Sando

I think you contradicted yourself in 865. The game balance would balance out if there are day/night PRS (day-cop, night-cop, etc) in my opinion.

@iPeanut
School is k-e-w-l man :p.

I agree that SSK played weird though. I see his name a lot in modding and skimming through some random games so I know he has the experience. It felt too obv scum. Maybe some obvious busing to save a scummate? Anyways when you are done your meta research I look forward to analyzing it.

Depending on the numbers of scum we could be in lylo if town all die today. But yes it is premature to call this so I recommend we wait till tomorrow before we act on the mass claim.

@Plat
If we assume your conditions (that 4 scummies are still running around) we would only be in mylo tomorrow if 3 townies die today. There is a chance of crossfire and such that can reverse the town's position.

You also contradicted yourself in that recent post. You agree with Scott that scum is trying to hit each other (unless the day mafia has a mafia cop), and say that day mafia wouldn't want to kill night mafia this early. It makes no sense. The last part reads as AtE to the day mafia, and the only reason anyone would do that if they were night scum.

Clarify now.

Unvote

Vote: Plat

[Platypus_Dude]

Uhhh, wow.

It may not be 'mylo' but the scum factions would have majority, which is almost as bad.

Either you read that last part wrong or I have bad grammar. Let me fix it anyways.

This makes me believe that there are 3 scum per team because I don't think the day mafia would kill off the night mafia this 'early' if they had 2-man teams.

As for the 'AtE', I was showing why I thought there were 3-man scum teams which I thought made it mylo.

because SSK is an idiot and couldnt even fakeclaim properly.

whats so hard to understand about that?

I'm fairly certain that MafiaSSk isn't an idiot. IMO, he either made a mistake, or he tried to get you lynched.

[DTMaster]

@Playt
Ah I understand this much more clearly now.

1. Yes it would be bad if scum had the majority of the town population, that goes without saying. But it's premature to assume this when we aren't in that position yet (see cross fire thought). The only to fix this is to scum hunt.

2. The 'AtE' I saw was you saying "day scum wouldn't kill night scum off this early." (hears the underlying begging tones). Alone this implies you know more about the scum mindset then you lead on.

The last part of your edit clears it up much better (and gets rid of the contradiction that you agreed and at the same time disagreed with Scott) and looks like speculation.

3. I didn't think SSK even read the game. (Which I didn't finish yet sworrry >>;;.)

@Sando
I agree that Kise's rolefishing past really anti town, but Kise brings up some good points in the recent post.

1. Why didn't you hammer SSK when I counterclaimed his cop claim (especially when we know he was obv scum)?

2. What are your thoughts on Kise's mass claim tomorrow assuming his conditions are correct? To me it seems reasonable since it is a potential mylo situation if we mislynch today.

@Myself
I accidentally wrote lylo, I meant mylo in 868. Whoops, my bad.

[Sando]

@Sando
I think you contradicted yourself in 865. The game balance would balance out if there are day/night PRS (day-cop, night-cop, etc) in my opinion.

Isn't that what I said? I think it is highly likely that there is a day-cop to balance BCs apparent night-cop, and a night doc to balance BMs now dead day-doc.

Do you mean my 1/2 of 1/2 comment? That's still working on the assumption that there's a day cop and night doc left unrevealed. My guess would be that if there is a godfather, then both scum teams would have it, cutting down the already limited guilties a cop can get. That comment was speculation about the likelihood of godfathers and the power they would posses.

[DTMaster]

@Sando
Ack my bad. Reading the first half of that comment made me think you contradicted yourself because you believe a normal cop is the only scenario where it would balance the town out. Your reasoning is sound.

You also haven't answered the rest of my questions though.

[iPeanut]

@iPeanut
School is k-e-w-l man :p.

Chya right. XD These classes will be the death of me. I've got it crammed with all kinds of AP. D: But I'll (hopefully) still have time for Mafia in spite of it. :3

Lynched CJMiller: Didn't post at all, really, but was suspicious of BC and lobster; quicklynched D1, on that were: DIDO (me), falkomango (SSK), lobster, Kise, Platypus, BC, Reckoner, nhammen, and MonkeyMan; of those, we still have DIDO (me), lobster, Kise, Platypus, BC, Reckoner

Daykilled nhammen: CJMiller, MonkeyMan, Kise, Wiirdo, Looker; of those, we've still got Wiirdo (Saber) and Kise

Lynched CB: BC, Konowa (Reckoner), Snow White, Kise; on the lynchwagon were: BC, Empking (DTM), Reckoner, Saber, BM, Snow White, Kise, Scott, lobster; of those, we still have all but Snow White, BM, and Scott

Daykilled MonkeyMan: BC, nhammen, Empking (DTM), CJMiller, Reckoner, Bekkatha, kinda Snow White; of those, we still have BC, DTM, Reckoner, and Bekk

Nightkilled Snow White: Konowa (Reckoner), Platypus, CB, CJMiller, BC, MonkeyMan, Sando, lobster; of those, we still have Reckoner, Platypus, BC, Sando, and lobster

Lynched SSK: Saber, Kise, DTM, Reckoner, BC; on the lynchwagon were: Kise, BC, DTM, Saber, Reckoner, Scott, BM; of those, we still have all but Scott and BM

Daykilled Scott: Konowa (Reckoner), CB, CJMiller, BM, Sando, Saber; of those, we still have all but CB, BM, and CJMiller

Nightkilled BM: MM, CB, Kise, DIDO (me), Bekk, Scott, SSK, DTM; of those, we still have Kise, DIDO (me), Bekk, and DTM

Consider the Nightcop's results (Scum CB, innocents on Bekk and Reckoner) and who's dead (CJMiller, nhammen, CB, MM, Snow White, SSK, Scott, and BM). Those that are innocent by night cannot all be on the night team (under assumption of godfather, there can only be one).

Filtering out the dead from this and considering all players to a role:

Players that showed up on day more than once: Reckoner, Saber
Players that showed up on night more than once: None
Players that showed up more than once between both: Reckoner, Saber, Bekk, Kise, and DTM
Players that showed up more than once on lynches: BC, Reckoner, Kise, Saber; Kise and Reckoner were on all lynches
Players that showed up more than once between all lists: Everyone

I caught a few mistakes in that as I went over it, but I'm a little sick right now, so I may have missed a few more. For some reason, I kept wanting to think BM is alive.

I'm going to check on SSK when the search option's back up, and I'm also going to look into other player connections some. Do keep in mind that I've got a ton of paper work to go through now, as well as a burning need for money (so I'll probably be doing some odd jobs and what have you); my activity rate's probably going to fall a bit. Hopefully nothing noticeable, at least, though.

[BloodCovenent]

dear god, that is going to take me a while to read up on.

I'll end up re posting it, with colors assigned to players.