Mafia 97 - Day Night Mafia, Game Over

[Platypus_Dude]

I like the Kise and Lobster lynch almost equally, but the people on Kise's wagon worry me.

What do others think of saber's reaction to SSK's result?

---

Vote Count:

Kise(3)

- Sando, Bekkatha, lobstermania

lobstermania(1)

- saberwolf

Sando(1)

- Kise

Platypus_Dude(1)

- DTMaster

XRECKONERx(1)

- BloodCovenent

Not Voting(3)

- iPeanut, Platypus_Dude, xRECKONERx

6 to Lynch
4 to Lynch at Deadline

Deadline:

2/10/09 13:35 Central Time

[saberwolf]

haha, still on my case are you PD?

Why should it matter? I knew SSK's story was bogus, so I dismissed it and ignored the contents of it. He made such a lousy liar that to sift through any of his posts would be meaningless, especially now that after we lynched him he was confirmed scum, making everything he said a lie.

You are trying to prod me into revealing my alignment and/or role by asking me and others questions about the results claim by SSK [which was clearly false], hoping that in doing so I am either forced to give it up to save myself or I slip up and reveal something for you to use to your possibly anti-town needs. It's rolefishing, and I don't like it.

FoS: Platypus_Dude

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys, haven't been here in a while so here are my current thoughts/responses.

@Playt

I tend to stick my votes and not unvote unless something big comes up to convince me otherwise. Since it is 4 to lynch I can see why you question it. That is my bad.

Unvote

I also agree that at the moment both suspects have both their points. I prefer a Kise lynch over a lobster lynch just based on gut feeling from BM's last post, and his day three actions. Procede with caution as both lobster and Kise are at L-2 right now.

In terms of your sabre question he reacted pretty strongly in his ISO 40, but nothing that would make me suspect a huge degree of scumminess. In fact I get no reads on sabre just based on that discussion in ISO since my Day Miller claim ensured SSK's lynch.

@SSK Theory with the Town
BM's last post seemed to suggest this angle, coincidence or something we should explore.

[saberwolf]

yep, Kise is Godfather, and LobsterMania is quite possibly his Goon.

BM

How do you know its Godfather?

I think this is actually a scumslip. Notice there is no response to the part about lobstermania. [most likely because lobstar isn't maf, or at least not on SSK's side] But he DOES respond to the part about Kise being godfather. I see three possibilities here:

1. SSK is surprised and caught off guard by the accuracy and confidence of the statement. Inquires BM in an attempt to probe around for a role. SSK fails to get anything out of BM. This results in BM's death.

2. The part "how do you know its Godfather" could also suggest SSK admitting to the fact that Kise is scum, but not necessarily godfather [goon]. The fact that SSK sacrificed himself for Kise's sake doesn't really support this theory.

3. I am completely and utterly wrong.


by SSK:

Kise is tomorrows lynch if BC is town.

Would it be that smart to set up your godfather just to lynch an unknown? seems stupid, but then again, its SSK. Hard to really say.

I'd contribute much more if there weren't post after post of walls of text. It makes my brain lazy and me not want to contribute. And howlong have you been on Mafiascum? Shouldn't you know that Empking and I are in the bottom of the contributors list on MS?

Yeah, I'm skimming. My thoughts being BC is most likely scum and anyone attacking Kise is stupid.

Seeing as BC's cop, doesn't help Kise's case much. Also, because SSK was trying to threaten everyone to stay away from Kise, it makes me even more suspicious.

I think that's enough info for me to change my vote:

unvote; vote: Kise

[Kise]

OK, so now I'm dayscum? Then why would I lead a lynch on SSK if I was? And if I'm nightscum, then why would I hammer CB instead of stay on V/LA and drag the day out longer?

[DTMaster]

@Kise
Busing argument.

@Town
I'm willing to hammer but I want to give a day or two. The deadline is really, really, really, long away. Plus I'm at work right now on a 15 minute break.

[Seraphim]

I APOLOGIZE. I WROTE THE WRONG DATE FOR THE DEADLINE. THAT SHOULD READ 2/9/09 AS OPPOSED TO 2/10/09.

[Kise]

Bussing? How about the others who were distancing? Take a look at those who weren't on the CB or SSK wagons, and even those that barely mentioned CB & SSK. If I was scum, it'd be rather stupid of me to eliminate a scumbuddy, knowing that my team had to not only compete against the town, but also a rival faction.

Going by your "I'm willing to hammer" statement, does this mean you don't want to converse any further with me?

Does anyone plan to put pressure on Bekk, or will she be allowed to continually coast through the game? She's playing like khamisa for the most part.

[DTMaster]

@Kise

I'm willing to discuss, but I was at work at the time of my other post (15 minute break) which is why I didn't hammer. Right now I need to do a full reread before I proceed.

Also I don't understand why you are requesting someone to pull a case on Bekk. If you find something suspicious (which some of her latter posts are very questioning), then make a case yourself. Your last statement just reads as AtE as: Don't lynch me, look at x person first please!. I frown upon your defense post since you can do both scum hunting and defending at the same time.

[DTMaster]

Er I should clairfy: I was at work so the connotation of my words would sound harsher.

[lobstermania]

BC, I'm still curious why it's okay for you to vote saberwolf, but when I FoS saberwolf you see that as ample reason change your vote to me....

[Kise]

I don't care about anyone making a case on Bekk. The fact of the matter is that every time she's posted in here, it's usually laced with the popular vote-wagon. All I'm pointing out is how unhelpful she has been, and there's probably at least 1 more person who is coasting.

Case or not, it'd be a shame if she was mafia that went unnoticed. BC semi-cleared her, but even he said it didn't mean much.

[Platypus_Dude]

Why should it matter? I knew SSK's story was bogus, so I dismissed it and ignored the contents of it. He made such a lousy liar that to sift through any of his posts would be meaningless, especially now that after we lynched him he was confirmed scum, making everything he said a lie.

I think most people's reaction to someone calling you neutral when you're town is to say that you're town (that's a scenario). You, however say that SSK is obviously lying and don't try to disprove him in any way.

You are trying to prod me into revealing my alignment and/or role by asking me and others questions about the results claim by SSK [which was clearly false], hoping that in doing so I am either forced to give it up to save myself or I slip up and reveal something for you to use to your possibly anti-town needs. It's rolefishing, and I don't like it.

I don't care about your role, it's your alignment I'm worried about. I also don't see why it's a big deal to tell us your alignment anyways. If you're town, you aren't giving anything away by saying you're town, if you're neutral it's late enough in the game the scum shouldn't waste a kill nor the town waste a lynch, and if you're scum you'll lie anyways.

DTM: I believe it is 6 to lynch, but 4 at deadline.

[Bekkatha]

Kise, if you actually look at the people's votes at the time that I voted you, Lobster was the most popular wagon with 2 votes and you and 3 other people had only 1 vote. So how am I going along with the most popular wagon? And who else is coasting in your opinion? I find it interesting that you mention me when I'm voting you but you only mention that others are coasting as well.

[Bekkatha]

oops. sorry, there were only 2 others besides Kise with 1 vote on them at the time I posted

[Kise]

Nah, no one else is coasting. iPeanut is the person I was thinking about. He is more involved with the game and is not a "speak when spoken to" type of person, if you catch my drift.

[Bekkatha]

how subtle... I admit that I am not the most talkative in this game but I don't like posting when I don't have anything to say. It would be silly just to post little comments about how I agree with fill in the blank. I will try to be more talkative from now on. Will that make you happy?

[DTMaster]

@Playtupus
Thanks for the clarification on the hammering issue. I misread that , my fault!. Though I do not see any danger then on why you wanted me to unvote when it's 6 to lynch. Scum doesn't control half the population yet, I think, so a quick lynch would not have occurred. I understand it at 4 votes, but not 6. :<

@Kise
1. The issue comes from your wording and your post, it reads as deflection in your 907 then just pointing out a suspicious trait. When I go do an ISO read on you I see the following:

ISO 0 RVS Vote on Konowa
ISO 1-3 Attacks on Konowa
ISO 4 Snappy remark on BC
ISO 5 FOS on nhammen and ISO 6 explains the concept of IIOA
ISO 7 IGMYOY on lobster
ISO 8 and 9: Maintaining your stance on Konowa
(Everything in between is more responses then general stances that Kise has taken)
ISO 13 More forward attack on Reck (who replaced Konowa) while questioning Lobster
ISO 14 Confirmation that Kise is still on Reck but "not tunnelling" which is odd based on the general pattern that I'm seeing from the ISO posts.
ISO 15: Is a passive way of being aggressive against Lobster when you semi-defended Emp's vote.
ISO 16: Semi attack on Nhammen, but I think his point was you accused him of IIoA, not "asking questions", so basically to scum hunt instead of state the obvious.
ISO 17-18: Jumps on CJ. Find it odd (maybe since it's an ISO read) but the following other 3 suspects aren't carried over. There isn't a transition in your posts at this point to show how you went from Reck/Konoawa, Nham, and lobster to CJ. (

Town: Can someone re clarify the CJ wagon for me again? I'll skim back again but I've been procrastinating on that reread. :< School is starting soon and all...

)
ISO 19-20: I believe just twilight banter right now.
ISO 21: CB vote since obvious scum from BC.
ISO 23: Reck is scum. Wow.
(Note: The JOAT reasoning is from 22 - 24)
You claim in 25 - 27 as VT.
ISO 28: Hostile to iPeanut's coaching. :s this is weird in rereading but ok...
ISO 29: Ability-fishing (still weird to type this!) BC. >>;;
ISO 30: Mafia Cop Theory starts against BC.
(Note: I like how you go from a calling Reck scum on day one and two to jump and try and force the mafia cop scenario on BC. >>;; Talk about lack of flow.)
ISO 32: Is general responses and defending your ability-fishing questions. (By now I joined this game and the whole town pointed out the whole day/night mechanic. I don't see why you had to get BC to flavour claim when timing is very important in this game, especially when it comes to abilities. In hindsight it's much easier to say this with BM being the day doc, but still.... >>;;)
ISO 33 - 34: You finally come around to see that there is a day mafia, official posts to show that you agree instead of the JOAT/VIG stuff. >>;;
(More responses, ISO 35 is snappy at sabre btw... )
ISO 36: More Mafia Cop Theory
ISO 37: So some suspicion lands on Scott, Sabre and (now I understand) Sando. Combined with your OBV SCUM Reck, your MAFIA COP BC, your suspicious Lobster I think that is half the town.....
ISO 38: Also add on Empking/DTM case... which I never got. Also a vote on Sabre (which you don't clarify the transition from Reck to here, nor BC to here. It kinda reads as: I give up on this case and it's time to move on vote.)
ISO 39:Ability fishing of BC, really agressive too.
ISO 40: You accuse of everyone who is supporting "cough"

the Town cop and his followers

that any more buddying going on are more likely to be day scum .

Note if you had not forced that flavour claim on BC then the cop claim would not be "night cop" and it would just be "cop". You forced this situation on yourself since day scum would just as eager to lynch the confirmed cop.

ISO 41: Aggression on BC (what happened to sabre btw...)
ISO 42: SSK comment
ISO 43: Btw in hindsight this pair (BM and BC) was the strongest at scum hunting we had, so >>;;. You restate why you support your vote on sabre (but in these iso reads you are more focused on BC being mafia cop then effectively scum hunting sabre).
ISO 44: More mafia cop theory, I don't know why you quoted BM's PBPA on you...
ISO 45: Please stop having a glory trip on finding out that Xyl's a god father. It's one game, stop making yourself scummy and an easy target if you are so pro-town. It's no accident why you are one of the favorite bandwagons right now. You posted that in a "iffy town summary" theory before you died in the early days. It's not like town won that game because of your analysis /rant.

You are voting sabre (for much weaker reasons then your BC case) and support a whole tray of contradiction on a platter right here. >>;; Honestly if you do an ISO read on yourself, it's no wonder why people assumed you want a BC lynch. I find that your defense on that very poor.

But on this same post you FOS SSK and asked the mod if scum was cheating right then (which looks random, and still weak if you hoped to mod-kill scum in that mess).

ISO 46: FOS Sando no case yes and wanted SSK to clarify his thoughts and responded to BM's ISO read. (Its a good read, har har)

(SIDE NOTE: BTW I hate double standards: You won't ISO read or "name drop" as you say in ISO 46

I won't name-drop... blah blah your JOAT/VIG theory and why BC's claim was a scum slip... blah blah

Before the phase ends, please name-drop who else talked about 2 factions.

Doing these ISO reads are time consuming, do one yourself before you request something like this. >>;; This is more mafia theory and courtesy issues then a scummy issues though.)

Response then your ISO 48: attacks Sando
More responses but your ISO 54 is a sudden clear flip on your position on BC. Sorry but you are a big contributor to this mess, see the above for why. I love the irony though that you stated it was dumb to lynch and unCC cop when you went out of your way to defeat the credibility of the cop in this game. You might not have tried to lynch the cop based on votes alone, but your ISO arguments reads like you were.

More responses

Aggression on Sabre in 63.
SSK Vote and aggression in 67, though some weak points based on Falco.
Responses then SSK's cop claim confusion.
Voted Sando in 80.
Agression on Bek now.

And only now you are addressing Bekk's action? You aren't doing yourselves any favour by pulling this case without following up on your position against Sando (that I questioned based on your thoughts I might add, not yourself). Also you haven't attacked Empking's alt (my replacee) for the same reasoning, he has only 9 posts in the whole game and is guilty of the same charge.

I find your scumhunting ineffective and contradictory when you set double standards on people (ie Bek and Empking/Myself). You jump around a lot, and the whole Sabre/BC thing reads as very contradictory scum hunting. You didn't "vote BC" but you sure antagonized him to no end. This reads as a backdoor argument to save yourself.

2. You are the person bringing this up and pointing fingers, I would expect you to form a case right now since the alternative to a Bekk lynch would most likely end up in yours. I want some sourcing and some pattern hunting please, kay, thanks.

Even Ipeanut went through the trouble to compile a list of voting/aggression patterns.

I'll motivate you right now since doing this ISO read on you makes me suspicious of your motives.

Vote: Kise

That's L-1 people please proceed with caution.

[Kise]

I've referenced my dislike of Sando's actions in more than a few post. Any opinions I had on D1 might have changed due to circumstance, obviously. Otherwise, I'd be tunneling while simultaneously having a blind-eye to other people's scumminess. I've already gone over why I had that drawn out "feud" with BC, which was coupled with my own recent experience with mafia cops. Irregardless of how passionate I felt when going through the process against BC, the fact of the matter is that after gaining full understanding of his ability, I no longer had reason to question him on where he got the knowledge of CB definitely being night mafia. Also, I never got around to that case on you/Emp because it was a link to BC that included voting patterns/following, but it is long past appropriate of me if I were to still shed light on what I saw.

Bekk's name came up after you mentioned a bussing theory regarding me and the two known scum, so I countered by introducing a distancing theory regarding those who haven't interacted much with the known scum. Bekk came to mind due to her absence during SSK's crucifixion; thinking further, I wondered why no one has demanded more activity from her in order to get a decent read on her. And FTR, a bussing theory is so broad that it can encompass more players than myself, so it strikes me as a rather meager implication.

Your iso read means little to me, honestly. Call it arrogance, but I'd be willing to bet that an iso read on someone else will express their change in opinion during the course of a few phases. Sure, I may have gotten on Konowa/Reck & BC's cases, but I drop them when I see there is no longer a valid faith that I need to pursue them. Reck was on both of the scum's wagons, so I feel good about him. BC explained how he was certain of there being 2 different mafia factions, so I backed off of him. Everyone's updated actions will effect how I feel about their alignment. Wasn't that the case with me D2 when everyone switched over from my wagon to SSK's?

Some view me as speaking too soon, or being too aggressive with my approach, but I get the answers that help to determine another's alignment [IME]. I wouldn't say that any of my comments or gauging have been in vain. I find it is always better to scrape as much information out of someone as possible, as opposed to being gullible enough to settle for what someone says in a non-thorough manner.

DTM, you mention that I have used deflecting-tactics in 907. Basically, it is how I get you to open your eyes to other possibilities that you may have never imagined ITT (didn't I open the door to SSK's lynch?). What else must I comment on? Really, how else would you yourself argue to others who are using a bussing theory against you? I can't disprove a theory because it is not factual; it is simply experimental. So, my way of countering this theory is by deterring (or deflecting as you put it) from what I view as non-sense.

I have no case on Bekk, so I don't know why you're insinuating that I have the ability to construct one (are you?). I am urging her to help myself and others get a read on her by not lurking about. We're closer than ever to the MyLo stage, so, really, everyone should be urged to participate much more and allow those with no extra abilities, such as myself, to have a fair chance to judge you since discussion is all I can go by to make an assessment on others.

And.. another thing... You say I made weak points against falko, but, psychology sure did payoff, because he (and SSK) had a scum role and I picked that up based on his "luck with this" comment. I seriously believe that if I had not pestered SSK (I did so for the longest time) about his refusal to answer my questions, and if he were not NK'd, then he more than likely would have stayed in the background and let everyone else babble on, waiting to attach his vote to a mislynch. DTM, if you want to bring up weak points on people, then how can you not view this bussing theory as weak, and highly experimental?

I am Barack Obama, and I approve this message.

[Kise]

Almost forgot -->

As far as that "name-drop" situation goes, I felt good about Platy's play at the time, so I did not want him to come under the same fire I was going through for my speculation on nhammen being DK'd by an independent role. It wasn't until I began thinking further on the matter that I realized that I'm catching a load of flack for my JOAT referencing (which was not fishing... If you think it was fishing, then please explain how my "tactic" could have worked as such?), while Platy was someone who referenced a day-vig being responsible. He had his belief, and I had mine. But after a while, I said "screw this" and name-dropped him, eventually.

However, that form of name-dropping can not compare to my request that iPeanut give the names of those who expressed certainty of 2 mafia factions. Why, you ask? Because I'm a townie that referenced a day-killing role and caught shit for it, and I did not want to "deflect" (:)) and put the same unnecessary attention on Platy who I felt was a townie sharing the same mindset as me when he first viewed nhammen's death scene. But when it comes to iPeanut's recollection of those who mentioned 2 factions, it's different due to the fact that it can implicate those players who slipped up on their inside knowledge, therefore they can be examined as those who are more than likely scum.

[xRECKONERx]

Kise.

Why did you drop your case against me that you were pushing so hard for at the start?

[Kise]

Reck was on both of the scum's wagons, so I feel good about him.

[DTMaster]

Comments:

@Kise

1. Change of course comes as new development is shown. I have an issue on how you represented this change on Sando vs the rest of the town because it is a very jumpy read, and not really a gradual shift from one focus to an other. I noted that you drop points at entirely and move on without conceding to that point (but this is an ISO read so I'm not sure if the town was able to prove their innocence in the whole thing)

The BC/Sabre thing outlines this sense of jumpiness really well since you attacked BC while voting Sabre in a very mutually exclusive discussion of mafia cops and scum-sabre. It was a very odd read.

2. I see your Bekk link and idea here, it would heavily implicate her along the same reasoning of the kamikaze/bussing theory. The problem is it does the same to you at the same time. But this does shed some light on your thinking, it might be time for an ISO read.

(BTW I find that ISO reads are easier for me to keep track of events, but there is the flaw that I lose the town discussion as a good context for the argument. To the town: please point out poor arguments that are based on my Iso reads since I lose that sense of context)

3. Not entirely, the case against you hasn't dropped, nor does it mean that SSK's lynch should clear you. It just means that we found someone more obvious as scum then you. See my little twilight banter between BM and Me. The miller claim shouldn't auto-clear me as being obv town, nor should BM's actions be a sign of him cleared as obv town. The only absolute way to determine alignment is death, which is why the whole innocent results are useless debate came about in the first place.

4. While being thorough is good, timing and knowing when to apply: "less is more" is really important (note timing in your arguments/questions not the whole ability flavour).

The night cop/day scum buddying dilemma is resulted from your aggression on BC, which was very unneeded at the time of the argument. I understand your mentality at the time was to suspect mafia cops with your recent games, but it got rid of that psychological defense of fear that surrounded BC from the day scum team.

This though is a chalk up for conflicting mafia theory, rather then an argument for your scumminess.

5. Its all about context and connotation of your post, you should know this since you are an expert in psychology. Especially when you just point out an issue that is already defined on Bekk's character, you only did this after more votes piled onto you. In my iso read your history shows you had no issues with Bek prior to this, which makes the image of your post looks like you are grasping at straws. This is why I want you to outline a case because it will have much more merit then what the current situation looks like.

6. Yes you were right in hindsight about falco, and you were with Xyl. But like with your Xyl godfather analysis, its much more important to prove at that time why that person is scummy. Xyl still won in the end in that game.

A sentence by falco and over analysis of that one statement fails in comparison with other evidence against SSK. If falco said: "go town" I doubt you would have vouched for SSK's innocence just as hard as you went for SSK's guilt. It wouldn't stop the fact that SSK fake claimed, nor that my Day Miller claim wrecked his fake claim.

7. Bussing is a very broad term, this whole discussion is very WIFOMY in general which is actually quite dangerous now you point it out. But based on history, I have a lot of issues with you then the rest of the town. Bekk is up their with her lurker activities and her repetitive posts. Plat is odd with his recent questioning about SSK's neutral result which is raising some red flags right now.

[xRECKONERx]

K, skimmed over that the first time.

[saberwolf]

BC, I'm still curious why it's okay for you to vote saberwolf, but when I FoS saberwolf you see that as ample reason change your vote to me....

in case you didnt notice, BC always random votes someone at the beginning of each day. Thats the difference.