Mini 836: Commie Mafia (Game Over)

[charter]

Col.Cathart, who are your top two suspects and why do you suspect them?

I'm really thinking Col and Peabody are scumbuddies.

[charter]

I'm really thinking Col and Peabody are scumbuddies.

I will explain this after Col answers my question as well.

[Col.Cathart]

Main - Harumafuji. I don't like his lack of activity, and this translation bullshit really annoys me for reasons mentioned above.

Secondary - That's a bit harder. CoCo is either a scum who's trying to mess as much things as he can, or very overreacting and paranoid townie. Peabody's answers to the questions about his vote makes little to no sense at all. At first I thought that was just joke/mistake, but now it looks somewhat differently. So that's gonna be those two.

Also, SensFan's behavior annoys me as well. If he knew he'll be V/LA at the beginning of the game, then why he even joined this game in the first place? I don't like completely 'no-read' players.

Lastly: Do you still really think I'm a scumbuddy with Peabody, because I didn't jump to his throat, when everyone else did? As someone else stated before, that's pretty ridiculous. Not to mention, that it was a perfect ground for bussing, so that kind of action for scum makes no sense to me...

[CoCo]

Hey, anyone read iso-Mathcam yet? You should...

[Talitha]

Hoopla: (re apology) Thanks, it's no problem. I was tired and grumpy at the time.

I agree with whoever said Haru needs to keep contributing, as lurkers are the one kind of policy lynch that I'll support.

[CoCo]

And we're to accept you'll stop your attacks against Peabody because you found a "softer target"? Not likely.

[Talitha]

*sigh*

[CoCo]

Nice content, Talitha. I'm sure it will help us find scum.

[Cyberbob]

You're one to talk about content, CoCo. The vast majority of your posts have been pithy one-liners.

[Kublai Khan]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 7

charter

- 3 - Peabody, Harumafuji, CoCo - (L-4)

Peabody

- 3 - Cyberbob, Talitha, charter - (L-4)

CoCo

- 2 - Vaya, mathcam - (L-5)

Harumafuji

- 1 - Hoopla - (L-6)

Hoopla

- 1 - SensFan - (L-6)

Players not voting: Col.Cathart, le Chat

Prodding Harumafuji...

[Peabody]

Peabody, yeah, you did comment on the quick wagon in your first post (82), and also questioned charter's town read.

I can kinda see your first post as a joke-ish "must get a random vote in, before jumping into the debate" - but in post 126 you actually defend it and imply it wasn't a joke and it really was before discussion had started.

I probably would have unvoted you by now except for this apparent contradiction.

Talitha, I suppose I'm just not understanding why you think I have made a contradiction. Yes, I did say "before discussion starts", but I do not see this as scummy. I was RVSing because I wanted to participate in RVS. It's fun. Why is it a contradiction to contribute to the discussion AND make a random vote for fun?

--------------------------------------------
CoCo is looking quite scummy to me now. I didn't notice this at first, but as Cyberbob pointed out, he was getting quite emotional in his opinions about the early bandwagon. In regard to his "defending" me, I am unsure whether to take this as an attempt to buddy up or whether he really is convinced of my innocence.

Charter's early read still sticks out in my mind.

I don't think mathcam is scummy enough to warrant a vote, but I do urge him to contribute to the conversation more, please.

[mathcam]

A player posting entirely in emoticons, or posting incomprehensibly, is just as valuable as a deliberate prolonged lurker. The remedy is the same, replacement, with possible site-wide sanctions.

CoCo: What's iso-mathcam? Why is forcing you to respond to any points made against you so difficult? Is it because of the reasons I made in my last post? Now that you understand my argument against you, why do you think I'm scum? Why are you so hung up on "early reports", when clearly everyone else in the game recognizes it as a phrase used in passing?

Peabody: I think I'm contributing fine. No one even commented on my last post, so I'm not feeling like I have to explain my reasoning any clearer. If someone wants to poke a hole in it, or disagree with it, I'd be happy to elaborate.

Cam

[charter]

-- what do you think of CoCo's response to my questioning? And I don't think you can tell whether or not I've been looking at someone else -- I prefer to have something to say before saying it.

CoCo's responses to your questions were poor. I'm saying I don't see you looking for scum in many people, sure you could be doing it, but it's not happening in this thread.

Hey, anyone read iso-Mathcam yet? You should...

Scummy post. Implying that Mathcam is scummy, but isn't telling us what he finds suspect about Mathcam's posts, he just leaves it up to us to come up with that for him.

As for why I suspect Col Cathart and Peabody.
Col Cathart spends his first three posts waiting for others to do stuff instead of doing it himself. Not strong pro town posts. He unvotes his RVS vote but I see no intention of looking for another place to put his vote.

I think for now, that Peabody's vote was a simple mistake, not a real scum-tell. His jumpiness to vote others IS quite suspicious though.

This is really scummy. He is explaining away Peabody's vote and trying to say it isn't a scum tell.

Post 6 is more waiting around.

So I'm pretty much suspicious of him because he isn't really looking in to people, just making comments from the sidelines. His list of suspects is pretty convenient as well. Even more is him saying Peabody's answers don't make sense, but does he question Peabody on this discrepancy? No..

Lastly: Do you still really think I'm a scumbuddy with Peabody, because I didn't jump to his throat, when everyone else did? As someone else stated before, that's pretty ridiculous. Not to mention, that it was a perfect ground for bussing, so that kind of action for scum makes no sense to me...

I'm not really sure how to explain this well, but this is a poor way of defending yourself, and this is more of giving me the impression that Peabody is town and Col Cathart is not.

Peabody, his initial vote was fishy, as has been pointed out.
His vote on to me was pretty weak, and it's still there. He's not questioning me on anything about it either.

Upon writing all this, I find Col Cathart much scummier, so

unvote, vote Col Cathart

[le Chat]

i'm very sorry ive been away. i'll catch up and post today after my classes!

[Talitha]

I'm sorry I didn't comment on your CoCo post, cam. I was too busy getting all wound up about equal rights for emoticons and all that.
I agree with you to an extent, but the problem is I find CoCo so.. unusual, it feels almost a waste of time to hold him to normal standards of how a scum or a townie might play.

[Talitha]

Why is it a contradiction to contribute to the discussion AND make a random vote for fun?

Peabody, it's basically that it was obvious that the discussion had already started, and you even contributed to that discussion. So the "before discussion starts" comment had to be a joke... except it wasn't, because in post 126 you defend it, seriously.

I usually wouldn't lynch someone on a reason like this alone, but you've been pretty quiet too.

[le Chat]

If I contradict myself in this post, it is because I’m forming opinions as I catch up and write it. Hopefully if it seems like I contradicted myself between the beginning and the end, it is easy to see why as more things happened.

I would like le Chat to give an opinion on something, anything. Best would be who you are most suspicious of and why. Another question you could answer is why haven't you voted yet this game?

I will easily acknowledge that I am more hesitant to vote than most people. I’ll also acknowledge that its easier for me to give opinions on what I don’t find scummy than what I find scummy… I guess that’s your point when you ask whom I’m most suspicious of and why I haven’t voted. It does make me feel bad when Cyberbob tags onto you saying that I haven’t said anything of value.

I disagree with a lot of what CoCo says. I stated before that I don’t know if it is just due to his personality or a mafia role he got.

Post 2: Blatant fence straddling. I don't expect you to agree with me, but you must have other thoughts about the situation. Who in that tug-of-war looks the scummiest?

I disagree with this; I understand Cyberbob’s position about the argument’s worth and how he agrees with neither side. CoCo does not and sees it as blatant fence straddling.

Per charter 193 @ Cyberbob and Talitha,

In other news I'm also interested in mathcam.. I think he could easily be scum.

Can you elaborate? I haven't really been getting any sort of a read off of him.

I had the same feeling as Talitha. You answered the question yourself. He's just parroting, buddying, and blending in. I particularly don't like his unvote, but then leaving it at that. He doesn't start any other lines of questioning or look at someone else.

I agree with CoCo being ridiculous obtuse and misconstruing everything. Unfortunately, I'm not feeling scum off him.

I feel very similar about mathcam but I don’t think it makes him scummy, maybe because I find this attitude towards mathcam to be kinda similar to the attitude Cyberbob seemed to have off of you about me that I haven’t done “anything of value.”

I feel like a vote on Haru, or discussion that he is being anti-town because of the way he posts, is opportunistic (in the bad way, Vaya). I agree with Talitha that Hoopla seemed suspicious for that (I’m not sure if that is what Talitha meant because she was kind of vague, saying it was “interesting,” but that is my reason whether or not its hers). CoCo also stated that he thinks Haru deserves attention before the day is over, and I only assume it is because of the way he posts. I’ll again hold that I don’t find him to be likely scum just because of the way he decided to post even before the game started (an educated and likely correct guess based on his entire account’s persona).

@Coco: Just like Cyberbob, I hate the defense that you are keeping motivations secret or “setting traps” for scum that are not seen in the things you say or the questions you ask. Obviously there can be more than one reason for something but Cyberbob said it very well when he said you can “ret-con” previous motivations by saying you were doing something deeper/different.

Post 210 Talitha confirms that she finds Hoopla suspicious for the same reasons I found myself disagreeing with Hoopla’s comments about Haru’s alignment based on how he talks.

And I've decided that I do in fact find Hoopla suspicious. She already acknowledged that Haru's garbled-ness very likely has nothing to do with his alignment and is IMO incorrect, or at the very least exaggerating when saying that "Haru's garbled nothing-posts only serve to provide murkier waters for scum to lurk in".

I'm not suggesting Haru is scum by my quote - I'm saying that whoever the scum is in this game only serve to prosper by having one player slot not contributing analysis. Then,

if

he is indeed scum, it is difficult for the town to spot scum-tells through his act.

Can you explain why you think my quote is incorrect?

I think Haru can still contribute his opinions by using translation party. I don’t think he’s totally useless or unable to help at all, which is what you seem to imply.

Hooplh brings an interesting point to the table regarding Haru.

I disagree.

I agree with CoCo being ridiculous obtuse and misconstruing everything. Unfortunately, I'm not feeling scum off him.

CoCo, this is almost everyone in the game chiming in on the same topic -- you either inadvertently or consciously misinterpret just about every argument made in this game. Further, when people call you out on it, you tend to ignore their claims. You also ignored direct attacks against you for quite some time. If these are indeed inadvertent, I suggest you start taking your time reading other people's arguments. But since I'm beginning to suspect not-so-inadvertent...

I'm going to

Vote: CoCo

, for two reasons. First is the original attack -- while I think he has some "plausible deniability" in the sense that he can push off inconsistencies onto the V/LA, it's hardly airtight. Even if he decided that Vaya was the right target, why not even

mention

SensFan? The second is the argument in the previous paragraph -- delaying responding to attacks gives him time to read how other people respond to them before providing a defense, not to mention the possibility that people would forget about it. Contributing to this "hoping people forget about it" is his proclivity for strongly shifting focus on some very bizarre topics -- the "early reports" comes to mind, as does his insistence that there was no content in the post of charter that I quoted and agreed with (and a pretty implausible interpretation of what I was agreeing with).

The main reservation I have with my vote is that I would typically assign CoCo's fervor in this game a slightly pro-town rating, but it's not enough to overcome the above points.

Cam

@Mathcam: I find that I disagree with a lot of what CoCo says, but I don’t think it is because he is scummy. I feel like it is due to who he is, how he approaches mafia arguments. You have noted that you would assign his fervor a pro-town rating. You’ve also noted that the above two reasons trump or overcome the general feeling you might have about him. I will agree that he ignored SensFan and went after Vaya, but I don’t think its because he’s scumpartners with SensFan and wanted to lynch Vaya as opposed to his scumbuddy or anything. I think it is just that he went after Vaya. I didn’t suspect that he is holding off on responses so that he can feel out the crowd. I have to think about that. I will also admit that some of what he says makes me think he doesn’t do well with colloquialisms (“early reports”) and he parses posts for what he can respond to and what he can’t. But I’ve played with people like that before who were town, a lot, its just what they do.

I feel like CoCo and Haru are the easy targets, both because of how they talk, but in different ways. CoCo is very aggressive and grasps onto unimportant things. Haru (we suspect) uses Translation Party for all of his posts. If these are both simply who they are (the former being literally who he is and how he approaches arguments, the latter being an internet persona), then it doesn’t really have anything at all to do with their alignment. I feel like they’re the easy lynches that mafia can autopilot onto. Am I the only one who feels this way?

Again we must rely on Charter's "Early Reports."

Well, now I’m sad because Mathcam just stated that you ignore points and wait to feel out the crowd on how you should respond, and in your response to his post containing two facts about your play that could get you lynched, you stalled by posting a one liner about a colloquialism. Mathcam is not relying on Charter’s “early reports”... Charter wasn’t even relying on “early reports” last time when he said early reports. Please comment on what Mathcam says in 215.

I agree with Talith again in 218. I think if Haru posted more (yes, coming from me, but it’s not hypocritical because I don’t restrict myself like Haru is restrict(-ing himself?)-ed by Translation Party talk) then his “lost in translation” thing wouldn’t be so much of an overt issue for you, Hoopla. Or anyone. You said its not an attack on him, but it is drawing suspicion towards him based on how he talks, yeah? CoCo agreed with you, saying Haru should be “addressed” (I think it was) before the Day is over, so obviously he’s accruing suspicion.

I don’t like Col.Cathart’s post 224.

I'm actually inclined to agree with Hoopla here. If there is one thing I really hate in Mafia, that's gonna be stupid misunderstandings. There's nothing worse than long discussion which turns out to be pointless, because someone just couldn't make his point clear enough. Needles to say, Haru's posts have potential to make lots and lots of them. True, so far he didn't say anything disastrous, because he's not contributing much... But isn't lurking and therefore scum tell? Speaking of which, where the hell is Haru?

Also, CoCo, I really think you should stop catching every word in people's post. You look like someone who always tries to find a secret bottom in every line. Sometimes there's just no secret bottom, really.

You basically took my idea that Haru and CoCo are easy targets because of how they talk and you pushed them both on that subject. You talk about “long discussion which turns out to be pointless” and refer to what

could be

. What about Cyberbob’s comment that the long discussion in the beginning, Vaya v. CoCo feat. opinions, was totally pointless and full of null-tells? Isn’t that the same thing, but its actually happened in this game? I don’t think he’s scummy lurking, especially because I don’t think the Day is coming to an end anytime soon, there’s no deadline, and he can come in soon and respond to what’s been said and ask people things himself (even if they have to think for a second before responding correctly). And then you chastise CoCo for parsing posts. I agree that he should probably ease up on it but I don’t think it’s telling of scum.

You then respond to charter in 227 saying your main suspect is Haru simply because of how he talks and his activity... that’s not a read on his role, it’s a read on his persona... it’s solved not by a lynch but by an activity prod.

Hey, anyone read iso-Mathcam yet? You should...

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you mean by iso-Mathcam. If you’ll link me to it or tell me what it is I’ll gladly read it and respond to it in kind.

[le Chat]

I'm going to make a giant effort to be super active and talkative to make up for my basically V/LA without notice and the fact that I don't think (and other people might not think) I'm contributing as much.

@charter: Back to your questions. I disagree with mathcam about why we should lynch CoCo and think he is suspicious for it... I also think Col Cathart is being very narrow when he says his main suspects are Haru and CoCo. I think if I had a main suspect right now it would be Col Cathart. I still very much feel like I am feeling out everyone and forming opinions.

vote: Col Cathart

for now.

[le Chat]

I don't think mathcam is scummy enough to warrant a vote, but I do urge him to contribute to the conversation more, please.

I think mathcam has contributed a lot more than you have.

[CoCo]

@Le Chat: iso-[player name] is basically reading a player's posts in isolation. You can do so easily by going to the bottom of the page and using the drop down menus to select a player.

I'll respond to Mathcam's 215 after dinner.

[Cyberbob]

Woah, lots of stuff to comment on. I'm off to uni in a few, but I'll come up with something this afternoon when I get home.

[CoCo]

I agree with CoCo being ridiculous obtuse and misconstruing everything. Unfortunately, I'm not feeling scum off him.

CoCo, this is almost everyone in the game chiming in on the same topic -- you either inadvertently or consciously misinterpret just about every argument made in this game. Further, when people call you out on it, you tend to ignore their claims. You also ignored direct attacks against you for quite some time. If these are indeed inadvertent, I suggest you start taking your time reading other people's arguments. But since I'm beginning to suspect not-so-inadvertent...

Really? I'm quite single-minded. If I think someone is scum, I tend to ignore everything else until I'm satisfied either a) that player isn't scum or b) the player is scum and the case is iron-clad.
Once one of those criteria are met, I begin to judge the reactions of other players.
I became not-as-suspicious of Vaya and turned my attention onto you and Charter. If you're going to attack me, attack my arguments rather than my playstyle.

I'm going to

Vote: CoCo

, for two reasons. First is the original attack -- while I think he has some "plausible deniability" in the sense that he can push off inconsistencies onto the V/LA, it's hardly airtight. Even if he decided that Vaya was the right target, why not even

mention

SensFan? The second is the argument in the previous paragraph -- delaying responding to attacks gives him time to read how other people respond to them before providing a defense, not to mention the possibility that people would forget about it. Contributing to this "hoping people forget about it" is his proclivity for strongly shifting focus on some very bizarre topics -- the "early reports" comes to mind, as does his insistence that there was no content in the post of charter that I quoted and agreed with (and a pretty implausible interpretation of what I was agreeing with).

1. For crying out loud. Are we still talking about Sensfan? He was on V/LA,

explain what good it would have done for me to put everything else on hold until he returned.

In fact, he still hasn't said much (one post?) since he's returned. You can bet your ass I'm suspicious of him... but there really isn't much I can do until he starts participating.

2. I can see your logic in thinking this. But it is simply not true, as I explained above.

The main reservation I have with my vote is that I would typically assign CoCo's fervor in this game a slightly pro-town rating, but it's not enough to overcome the above points.

Pro-town fervor = scum?
If your above points lead to "fervor" how is that a case for me being scum?

[mathcam]

I'm sorry I didn't comment on your CoCo post, cam. I was too busy getting all wound up about equal rights for emoticons and all that.

No need for apologies -- if there's no reaction, there's no reaction. I just took issue with the implication that I hadn't been contributing. Plus, lol at equal rights for emoticons.

Really? I'm quite single-minded. If I think someone is scum, I tend to ignore everything else until I'm satisfied either a) that player isn't scum or b) the player is scum and the case is iron-clad.
Once one of those criteria are met, I begin to judge the reactions of other players.
I became not-as-suspicious of Vaya and turned my attention onto you and Charter. If you're going to attack me, attack my arguments rather than my playstyle.

I'm not suggesting you switch targets from your key suspicion -- we can all be fairly dogged in the pursuit of the person we suspect the most. I'm saying that in addition to attacking that person, you

also

have a responsibility to respond to other people's attacks on you. And I'm afraid you don't get to pick what I attack -- if your playstyle is scummy, then that's relevant.

He was on V/LA, explain what good it would have done for me to put everything else on hold until he returned. In fact, he still hasn't said much (one post?) since he's returned. You can bet your ass I'm suspicious of him... but there really isn't much I can do until he starts participating.

Once again you replace the argument against you with the argument that you

wish

had been made against you. Take a look at what I wrote: "why not even mention SensFan?" It's hard to describe the magnitude of how different that is from "put everything on hold until he returned."

Pro-town fervor = scum?
If your above points lead to "fervor" how is that a case for me being scum?

What? No. Pro-town fervor is evidence of town. That's what my post says.

[Cyberbob]

Too tired to work up the energy to write paragraphs (chem prac was an absolute shit of a thing), so will write in short sentences and dotpoints. I like dotpoints anyway for mafia because of their brevity, so nothing lost.

• Peabody's post 235 strikes me as either unconvincing or terribly lazy - how could anyone
  not
  have noticed CoCo getting hot under the collar?
  
• Having finally figured out what CoCo meant by "early reports", I have come to the conclusion that he is reaching like a pro.
  
• I like mathcam's idea of how to deal with Haru (if he refuses to stop using his translation thing).
  
• Don't buy into the "hmmm he doesn't think peabody's vote is scummy??? SCUM" deal, but I agree with mathcam's criticisms of Cathart's lack of real input.
  
• Kind of agreeing with whoever made the point about CoCo's possible normal style of play being this emotional, but I don't place too much stock in arguments by meta because of how easy one's meta is to manipulate.
  
• I like pretty much everything about that long post of le Chat's and I'm really happy that he finally pulled the proverbial finger out.
  
• CoCo's post 215... I dunno if this is just me but I really really don't like it when people talk about their own metas - especially if they're being used as a defence in of themselves. I do think mathcam is barking up the wrong tree a bit on the SensFan front however.

[Col.Cathart]

le Chat - So you are basically saying that my playstyle is scummy. I like to see anything clear and tidy, so when someone is making a mess in the discussion , my eye goes naturally into their direction. Regardless of my role, it's not going to change, sorry.

And about Cyberbob comment about Vaya vs CoCo - Well, maybe you didn't notice it, but I was on CoCo side there, but didn't actually back him up, because in my opinion he was making mess. I even said, that I dropped the issue, because I don't think we could squeeze anymore out of it.

About my lack of activity - Yeah I admit it... I kinda shot myself in a foot, with joining quite a lot games lately, so reading alone, answering and being active in general is hard to accomplish. I'm also on vacation, but still have an Internet access. Real life still takes the first spot here, so I have limited amount of time to read everything, not mention being active. But since it's my fault, I don't expect anyone to give an excuse for this. I'm prepared for harsh words for it.

Also, I'm still waiting for Charter's reasoning behind naming me a scumbuddy of Peabody...