Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[DTMaster]

Oh btw town Hohum is L-2 FYI. Usually this is the claim point if the town is leaning in this direction.

[hasdgfas]

found it:

Walls of text(or spamfests) are an obfuscation tactic. I'm not sure if it's conscious logic, but it goes something like this: if a player determines that they can't avoid making scum tells, the strategy then becomes to make them as hard to find as possible. That means posting more stuff. Of course, posting more also has to happen in town roles, otherwise a simple word count becomes a tell. In addition to this strategy being problematic to games, it's also unfortunate as a strategy -- someone embracing this has decided to stop improving their play. The better idea is to learn what mistakes one makes as scum and work to avoid doing them in the future. Furthermore, it promotes an anti-town meta, in which players can't be read because they're either lurking (unable to keep up with the walls) or posting too much crap to be analyzed.

Even if this were true, which is debatable*, it doesn't have any bearing on a persons alignment within any given game.

* for example: more posting equals more of a chance for someone to slip as scum. If someone knows they are going to slip then posting a lot would make it worse for them, not better.

Did you even read the explanation, or any of the thread I linked? It goes over why posting a lot makes it easy for their scummy actions to be ignored. Because of the massive amount of info that they produce, their scummy actions will be passed over to get to other things that can be commented on.

it, however, is extremely

detrimental to the town

, which is really what this is about.

Can you elaborate on this.

I already explained this. It throws so much information at the town that there's no way of telling what's useful and what's noise.

ThAdmiral, I don't mean to be rude, but how much of this game have you read? From your posts, I'm getting the feeling that it's not that much.

[fuzzylightning]

Vote Count #10

peacesells

: 1

(Kill-kill)

hasdgfas

: 1

(hohum)

Saberwolf

: 2

(ZazieR, Nikanor)

hohum

: 5

(DTMaster, saberwolf, Toro, Scott Brosius, Shotty to the Body)

Toro

: 1

(ThAdmiral)

Not Voting

:

(hasdgfas, peacesells)

With 12 Alive it takes 7 votes for a lynch.

Deadline is now Sunday September 13, 2009 4 PM EDT

[Shotty to the Body]

This whole discussion about Zazie's post style doesn't affect his alignment in this game. Zazie does that in all his games. Whether the style itself may be inherently more useful to a scum-player that has no relevance to his alignment now. Any attempt at using his poststyle as a scum-tell is scummy in itself. Since he clearly does it all the time trying to persuade him to change his style is a waste of our time so let's get our focus back on the game.

Vote Hohum

After double checking Icanhascow is correct about him.

You vote hohum but didn't mention him in your Summarization post. Why is that?

I read the first few pages but skipped them when I did the summary and he hasn't posted anything up until he was called out for lurking and I'd already addressed that in another post. I double-checked to be sure I wasn't being led astray by scum and I was ready to vote once I'd confirmed he was lying.

[Shotty to the Body]

This whole discussion about Zazie's post style doesn't affect his alignment in this game. Zazie does that in all his games. Whether the style itself may be inherently more useful to a scum-player that has no relevance to his alignment now. Any attempt at using his poststyle as a scum-tell is scummy in itself. Since he clearly does it all the time trying to persuade him to change his style is a waste of our time so let's get our focus back on the game.

Missing the point. I have told zazier to stop because he's being distracting. If he now keeps posting like this, it

will

be scummy.

I don't see how we can command him to post a certain way, I don't really have a problem perusing his posts. It takes some effort but he puts links in all of them so it's fairly clear.

[Nikanor]

@peacesells: What do you think of the hohum wagon?

[ThAdmiral]

Did you even read the explanation, or any of the thread I linked? It goes over why posting a lot makes it easy for their scummy actions to be ignored. Because of the massive amount of info that they produce, their scummy actions will be passed over to get to other things that can be commented on.

That is not fact though it is just a theory, and it assumes that people are going to just pass over the large amount of text without reading it which I believe some might do but a lot wouldn't.

it, however, is extremely

detrimental to the town

, which is really what this is about.

Can you elaborate on this.

I already explained this. It throws so much information at the town that there's no way of telling what's useful and what's noise.

How would you define "useful" and "noise".

ThAdmiral, I don't mean to be rude, but how much of this game have you read? From your posts, I'm getting the feeling that it's not that much.

I've read through the entire game, but haven't done any deep analysis. I read pretty quickly to catch up but I think I have a pretty good grasp of what is happening.

[Scott Brosius]

Oh btw town Hohum is L-2 FYI. Usually this is the claim point if the town is leaning in this direction.

Considering there is only one power role (seer) in this open setup, I see no point to claiming. It's weird that you would mention this if you were town. So either you are a lazy town who forgot the setup, or you are anti-town sniffing out the power role. Cain was at L-2. SW was at L-2. Why only mention this when hohum is at L-2?

[Nikanor]

Considering there is only one power role (seer) in this open setup, I see no point to claiming.

Do you mean no point in claiming at L-2, or no point in claiming at all?

[saberwolf]

I kind of agree with scott.

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

[Nikanor]

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

Well, if someone we were about to lynch ends up geting nk'd, it's better for the town because it gives us more of a chance to hit scum with our lynch, and it forces scum to use their nk on a potential mislynch.
On that note, if someone falseclaims seer, I recommend the true seer to not counterclaim until the day before lylo, so that we get as many investigations in as possible, while still leaving room for a mislynch to confirm or deny the seer's counterclaim.

[Scott Brosius]

Considering there is only one power role (seer) in this open setup, I see no point to claiming.

Do you mean no point in claiming at L-2, or no point in claiming at all?

In this setup, claiming at all. If hohum claimed VT right now, would we all get off his case?

[Nikanor]

In this setup, claiming at all. If hohum claimed VT right now, would we all get off his case?

No, but if he claimed seer, that's a different story.
Not giving him a chance to claim is foolish. Only scum can benefit from the accidental lynching of a power role. I don't see why you are opposed to a claim, if you are a part of the town.

[Toro]

I kind of agree with scott.

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

This is giving me a really bad vibe from both you and Scott now, sounds as if you two are werewolves and you'd want to make sure that Hohum (if he's the seer) doesn't speak to try and clear himself.

Unvote

Vote: Saberwolf

[saberwolf]

have to say i agree with nikanor with this. It is a benefit for town if any false claims happen.

but what IF hohum IS seer? That would suck.

Is this working well in hohum's favour though?...all he's gotta do is read the threads and act accordingly now that we prematurly set the stage up with this whole discussion. However it is almost a guarantee now that he won't live past night 1.

So what now? what works in our best interests as town? Guess we shouldn't get too far ahead of ourselves...I'll wait for hohum's claim.

[Nikanor]

Is this working well in hohum's favour though?...all he's gotta do is read the threads and act accordingly now that we prematurly set the stage up with this whole discussion. However it is almost a guarantee now that he won't live past night 1.

Way to try to discredit a potential seer claim by hohum.
And it's almost guaranteed he won't live through night one IF he claims seer.

[saberwolf]

Is this working well in hohum's favour though?...all he's gotta do is read the threads and act accordingly now that we prematurly set the stage up with this whole discussion. However it is almost a guarantee now that he won't live past night 1.

Way to try to discredit a potential seer claim by hohum.
And it's almost guaranteed he won't live through night one IF he claims seer.

I'm not discrediting anything. I actually feel bad for hohum, as he's stuck betwen a rock and a hard place. If Hohum does claim seer, I will gladly get off and put my vote on somebody else...particularly DTMaster for tactfully setting up this whole conversation.

[Nikanor]

Why DTM? You say he started the conversation, but you and I are propagating it. If this conversation is so bad, why aren't you trying to stop it? You know what they say, 'if you're not part of the solution...'

[saberwolf]

I kind of agree with scott.

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

This is giving me a really bad vibe from both you and Scott now, sounds as if you two are werewolves and you'd want to make sure that Hohum (if he's the seer) doesn't speak to try and clear himself.

Unvote

Vote: Saberwolf

I personally would love for him to claim seer. It would make our job as town easier. BUT I'm hoping he really isn't seer. It would be in our best interests as town for a fake claim and create WIFOM for scum to debate on...

I just really hope hohum isn't seer, or we're screwed.

[saberwolf]

Why DTM? You say he started the conversation, but you and I are propagating it. If this conversation is so bad, why aren't you trying to stop it? You know what they say, 'if you're not part of the solution...'

it wasn't until the conversation developed [when I saw nik and scott talking] that I started giving my own input, but I fully realise what could go down.

Think about it...why NOW does DTMaster ask someone to claim at L-2?

1. He is in the same faction, an is desperately attempting to get his buddy out of a hard place. It would work for them both if they are both werewolves. Hohum claims seer, and they get away with it until seer actually gets lynched. Only problem with this:

a) seer gets lynched early, Hohum is taken out next [obviously] and we suspect DTMaster for his connections. We might not even have to lynch him, if they are werewolves, but I could be wrong about the connection as well, this is simply my viewpoint.

b) Seer stays alive for quite some time, gets the dirt on a couple of scum, and then claims and reveals what he/she's got. Hohum then gets lynched, and we are in a super good position.

So this would be a super gamble, hoping seer gets lynched midgame. They would have to be able to control the outcome, hence making them mafia, and not werewolves.

Or there is:

2. DTMaster is an anti-town faction, knows that hohum is not on his faction, and figures any non-alignment lynch is a good lynch. He has after all almost certainly fixed Hohum's death, whether it's by lynch or NK. Only problem with this theory is...why not do this for Cain or myself?


so that's my thoughts for now...gotta think about this and analyze it further...for now, I'll be back later...I'm going out with my buddy to pick up dinner. [im using his laptop at his place.]

[Scott Brosius]

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

Well, if someone we were about to lynch ends up geting nk'd, it's better for the town because it gives us more of a chance to hit scum with our lynch, and it forces scum to use their nk on a potential mislynch.
On that note, if someone falseclaims seer, I recommend the true seer to not counterclaim until the day before lylo, so that we get as many investigations in as possible, while still leaving room for a mislynch to confirm or deny the seer's counterclaim.

I was more talking about what saber said. It's useless for the player claiming because with such few power roles, that player will probably get lynched regardless. Obviously it can give more information to the town if a player fakeclaims seer and is alive the next day. I'm fine with hohum claiming, but claims in this setup are not going to hold much water given the lack of power roles. Hence my saying they are useless.

My point in bringing this up initially was not to dwell on claiming strategy but to point out DTMaster's difference in behavior when different people were at L-2.

[Scott Brosius]

I kind of agree with scott.

It's useless for the player claiming because, whether or not he's actually telling the truth, he'll get NKed anyways, as there is no doc or equivilent to prevent it. The only good part to the claim would be town would back off and increase their chances of a day 1 anti-town lynch

This is giving me a really bad vibe from both you and Scott now, sounds as

if you two are werewolves

and you'd want to make sure that Hohum (if he's the seer) doesn't speak to try and clear himself.

Unvote

Vote: Saberwolf

Why can we only be werewolves? Since you are mafia and know your other members? Mafia-slip perhaps?

[DTMaster]

@Town
Sorry been awayish. I forgot there was only one PR. :< I'm used to the traditional cop/doc/etc in other mafia and see the anti-town side to the claim. But after reading Nik's posts I also see the pros.

@Scott
I checked the records and the only person who was at L-2 was sabre so unless you can show that people voted/unvoted before the vote count.

Vote Count #4

hasdgfas

: 1

(Cain)

Kill-kill

: 1

(DTMaster)

Cain

: 2

(Kill-kill, Scott Brosius)

Nikanor

: 2

(hohum, saberwolf)

Saberwolf

: 5

(lumi, Toro, hasdgfas, ZazieR, Nikanor)

Not Voting

:

(ThAdmiral, saberwolf)

With 12 Alive it takes 7 votes for a lynch.

Prod going out on hohum

Vote Count #5

hasdgfas

: 1

(Cain)

Kill-kill

: 1

(DTMaster)

Cain

: 3

(Kill-kill, Scott Brosius, lumi)

Nikanor

: 2

(hohum, saberwolf)

Saberwolf

: 5

(Toro, hasdgfas, ZazieR, Nikanor)

Not Voting

:

(ThAdmiral, saberwolf)

With 12 Alive it takes 7 votes for a lynch.

Prodding Cain

I believe the sabre wagon died down to cain afterwards so the L-2 situation was averted. I was also focused on a Kill-kill discussion I think and responding to Zazie.


@Sabre

1. No, claiming seer would make the town's job harder in some ways. He would not get any results in if he was the real seer and would die by NK. If this was a fake claim then we can attack him tomorrow. If it was a fake claim on the mafia side though, yes it would make it would be definately easier for town.

2. I'm fixed on a hohum kill? Um when did I say this? I confirmed has' case and voted on him for lying and right now am pursuing him for that reason. If someone turns up scummier then him or he claims seer, I wouldn't continue pressing him on this. 5 people are pursuing him on this, so obviously there is something wrong with hohum's actions.

You seem to jump to the wagon only after has voted and before I brought up meta evidence to support Has' statements.

This makes you look like you are fixated on "the easy kill". I find it intresting that you didn't vote until Has did, in fact:

\o/

what the hell is this?

Has votes.

unvote; vote: hohum

the hell with this, if he isn't scum, he's a liability.

3. I asked for the claim since hohum has been away and is literally not posting. L-2 is safer to ask it and it brings it out in the open then waiting till L-1 and having someone frustrate lynch over hohum's actions (well lack there of in posting).

Also some people traditionally start addressing claims at the L-2 point, but I forgot that we only have 1 PR and no docs. :s

[Scott Brosius]

Vote Count #6

Cain

: 5

(Kill-kill, Scott Brosius, lumi, DTMaster, Toro)

Nikanor

: 2

(hohum, saberwolf)

Saberwolf

: 3

(hasdgfas, ZazieR, Nikanor)

Not Voting

:

(ThAdmiral, Cain)

With 12 Alive it takes 7 votes for a lynch.

Prodding hohum, lumi, saberwolf, ThAdmiral,

Searching for a replacement for Cain

L-2

[DTMaster]

@Scott

Oh whoops scrolled too far down. :<

You are right and this is a big inconsistency then. :< Lazy R Me and scum points added against me.