Mafia 101 - Mafia Dodgeball: GAME OVER

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, that clears that up. So, my post is as follows...

CD, I wouldn't stretch the "avidly defended" too far. I simply didn't agree with the reasons that kmd presented against you, it wasn't a defense or anything. At the moment, I think you're trying to get out of a lynch by throwing the pressure on me.

@bandwagoning in general, I've nothing against bandwagoning in the early days, as it is a good way to get people to confess. However, sometimes you fall into the pit of tunnel vision, meaning that no matter what that person you decided at the early stages of the game to put your crosshairs on says, it will come out as "scummy".

[Snow_Bunny]

Hmmm... I'm not liking at all that CD and BB being brothers are playing in the same game. It's like having masons...

Anyways... I don't have problems with bandwagons, either. What I have problems is when they are not hand-to-hand with good scumhunting. Both of you are (CD and BB) are trying to get the other one lynched just to calm down the pressure you have on yourselves. For me, that's a big scum marker. Like, "ok, I don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't me. So, for that, I'm going to support the other bandwagon." I'm pretty sure that if it was another player instead of BB with the highest number of votes, CD would be pushing that wagon. And vice versa.

For me, it's hard to decide between you two. Both of you are acting scummy, but at least I already know the type of game CD plays (an erratic one), and for that my pressure falls upon BB.

[Vi]

I cannot believe how much you just twisted my words Vi. I never mentioned anger at any point.

Fair. I read "Strait up" as "shut up". However, to say that that is

Twisting my argument so horribly

is essentially libel.

A bandwagon at L-2 should be slown down, as you usually get claims from people before a lynch happens.

I don't want Bub to be lynched, as of NOW. The day has only just begun, and I am in no hurry to end it. We haven't even got everyone's opinion on the possible Bub lynch.

Then wouldn't that imply that you should *unvote*?

I do not think my own reasoning is weak.

No kidding!?

I think Bub is scum, I really do, however, I also do not wish to start tunneling on him.

Tunneling is very anti-town

, and I intend to avoid it this game, as that was my downfall in mafia 96. If you don't believe me, I point you to the link I put in this topic.

Is that your motivation? Not doing things that are anti-Town vs. finding scum? Because if you are

sure

[Bub]

is a newb scum

then if I were in your position I wouldn't take my vote off him unless you were

more

sure I was scum.

tl;dr Feeble reactionary counter, very little of interest.

-----

Although if it makes you feel better.

To address the cheesyness issue, I'm still getting used to the whole random voting stage. When I get around to compiling a list of my meta(will be done tonight for sure), I wil further elaboate on why I'm not used to it. I played with Mastin last game, and saw how he got discussion rolling from being very random in the RVS.

In short: You're blaming your behavior up to this point on meta and trying to pull out of the random voting stage (which we didn't need help with anyway).

I'd also like to say That beyond my first post, and all of my second post save for the last part addressing KMD, and one post after, I have been playing with a more focused intent.

"Trust me: I'm actually scumhunting! Really!"

@KMD and Vi: I don't toss around votes too much. If I'm voting somone, it's a statement that I think they are scum, or I am in the RVS. On that note actually...

Which doesn't actually get to the point. If you think someone is more suspicious than everyone else (read: most likely to be scum) as per the FoS, why didn't you vote them considering you only had a random vote at the time?

Or,

words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words more words words words words words words words words words words words words words words words

[Vi]

Hmmm... I'm not liking at all that CD and BB being brothers are playing in the same game. It's like having masons...

Most of the time siblings or husband/wife combos don't play games together except as a hydra more or less because of this.

@mod: Please make a decision here.

@bandwagoning in general, I've nothing against bandwagoning in the early days, as it is a good way to get people to confess.

How does this compare to

KMD is just trying to keep the game moving, get a quick (possibly mis) lynch. I'm not buying the argument and think he's just trying to bandwagon.

You say that you didn't ask for a quicklynch, and that's true, but if you put constant pressure on somebody, and give what look like decent reasons, that's what you'll get. Somebody as experienced as you should know that.

As far as the bandwagon vote, it might not be voting for the sake of the bandwagon, but it is starting the bandwagon, which could be just as bad...

?

-----

Also, to restate an earlier tl;dr - Hayker is scum. Move your votes in his direction.

[DeathNote]

I doubt you will get much attention for Hayker since BB and CD are the prime focus for most people.

[Vi]

I doubt you will get much attention for Hayker since BB and CD are the prime focus for most people.

I have yours, don't I?
Why are you disinterested in switching your vote?

[DeathNote]

Honestly? I would prefer for CD/BB to just vanish as they are simply distracting town actions now. I read everything that is posted, if I understand it is a different story. Can you sum up your case on him? Your last post does not show how he is scummy, only that he has issues making up his mind, which I suppose could be scummy.

[CooLDoG]

Actually Vi I told him that I would not talk to him about the game unless his role told him he could talk with me in a night role. Also what would be wrong with me jumping on the bandwagon? Also for now on Bub I will not play a game with you again, since it causes this to happen, me or you get lynched, and maybe both of us mod killed.

also on vi's post, it seems like bub has contradicted himself. In one post he says he does not like the wagon in a later post he seems to like it I just don't know. BUB you need to tell us what you feel about wagons, you have yet to answer the question. And if you are for wagons why not jump on mine?

[CooLDoG]

I am now actually debating to quit this game and hop on the next one. I don't quite know yet. When the mod posts I will go along with what she says, and hell I had waited since the third slot for this one.

[Plum]

Vote Count 03

RayFrost - 1 - tubby216
CooLDoG - 6 - manho, Kmd4390, imaginality, Lowell, DeathNote, Bub Bidderskins,
DeathNote - 1 - Sajin
Hayker - 1 - Vi
Bub Bidderskins -

7

- Dry-fit, dramonic, milkshake, ~Jordan`, CooLDoG, MafiaSSK, Snow_Bunny
Vi - 1 - Hayker

Not Voting (8): Vaya, alvinz95, RayFrost

With 20 Players alive it'll take 11 votes to pound someone into the wall.
With 20 Players alive it'll take 10 votes to call for a peaceful water break.

BWOOONNNK

IMPORTANT NOTICE: I will be unavailable from Friday evening until Sunday Night or Monday morning EST. SpyreX is your backup Mod. If you desperately need something, he's your go-to guy

Also imaginality's V/LA, which basically coincides with mine, is noted.

Also, CooLDoG and Bub Bidderskins, so long as you're obeying all the rules about not talking outside the game except in any way specifically allowed in your Role PMs I've got no problems with you two both playing. I have a sister on the site and we allowed ourselves to both play in a game together and follow those rules and it's worked fine. CooLDoG and Bub Bidderskins, some stuff in forum Mafia works on the honor system. Play by the rules and it's cool by me.

Actually Vi I told him that I would not talk to him about the game unless his role told him he could talk with me in a night role.

This works. I'm holding you two to your words.

[alvinz95]

Uh oh! Crap. Um, this kind of proves that we do know each other personally, we're brother's in fact. I got on a computer that CD last logged in on and ticked the "remember me" button. I kind of accidentally posted as him, and only realized it until too late. Please ignore that post, CD will come and back me up.

....

[CooLDoG]

wow! that was a god-send I just hit the refresh button and your post came up, thx. I will obay the rules. Now I hope this issue is over, and we can get on with the game.

[CooLDoG]

alvinz, thanks for your post, but if any one hs been lurking it has been you.
what are your thoaghts on the BuB wagon and Hayker?

[Vi]

Also what would be wrong with me jumping on the bandwagon?

The reasons behind it, which range from potential misunderstanding to blatant passing-of-the-buck (Bub is the popular choice that isn't me, therefore I will vote him).

Also, Bub -is- on your wagon.

[CooLDoG]

thoughts, sorry.

[MafiaSSK]

Bub makes no sense to me. I don't want him in the game because of this.

Vote Bub

So, you want him lynched just because you don't want him in the game? And that's enough reason? I'm sorry, I thought we were trying to hunt mafia, not players we don't like (not that Bub is not acting weird). And, talking about that, his case is getting stronger, and I'm finding him suspicious. And for that,

Vote: Bub

. His last vote against CD seemed more omgus than not, specially after Vi's quotes on 136. Clinging to reasons that can apply to himself is not a good thing.

Btw, I also didn't like CD's attack on Bub. First, the personal attack on him. This is a game, and it's no fun when players start doing such things. Second, that seemed to be the reason for his vote. Just like MafiaSSK quoted above. Like, you're not scumhunting but rather attacking a player just because you don't like him.

No. Him making no sense leads to non-understandable cases which is bad for the game

[milkshake]

My stance: I still believe that Bub and CD make good targets. I am specifically focused on Bub right now. I am glad the heat is up and hope that some good information will come of it.

Him making no sense leads to non-understandable cases which is bad for the game

Well it isn't just the he makes no sense, I'm sure he could make some sense if he tried, but I'm not sure he has actually posted anything of substance at all, even in a nonsensical way.

Example:

@bandwagoning in general, I've nothing against bandwagoning in the early days, as it is a good way to get people to confess. However, sometimes you fall into the pit of tunnel vision, meaning that no matter what that person you decided at the early stages of the game to put your crosshairs on says, it will come out as "scummy".

Assuming confess means claim (I just had a funny vision of someone saying, "Oh, I confess, I am scum! Please don't hang me!"), this is an exact repeat of what somebody else (Hayker) just said. That's very annoying and definitely not townish.

[Kmd4390]

However, the voting assisted in me tunneling. The more I voted for him, the more I believed my own case. I do not plan on making the mistake again.

So you should be more concerned with how you act regarding your vote than how you vote in the first place. Vote freely, suspect people all you want, just know that you could be wrong. Being wrong once doesn't mean you should be afraid to vote anyone.

Regarding the experience, I used to play here. But for some reasons, I had to quit it and then, when I wanted to return, I decided to make a new account.

Have I played with you before?

In response to the remark saying that Cooldog is a better vote than most, I'll say that we're still in the RVS really, and that KMD is just trying to keep the game moving, get a quick (possibly mis) lynch. I'm not buying the argument and think he's just trying to bandwagon.

1)When did I ask for a quicklynch?
2)My 1st vote on the wagon is a bandwagon vote???

So you're saying that when you accused Cool and kept on giving reason after reason you did not want other people to follow suit? In other words, the whole point of your vote was just so that you (uno, one vote) could vote for him? I'm not buying that.

No, I'm not saying that at all. But if CooL, for example, were at L-1 from the time I posted the case to the next time I came online, I'd have unvoted and taken a serious look at the wagon. So, yeah, a small wagon like we got is fine. But no, I didn't post that case hoping for a quicklynch.

You say that you didn't ask for a quicklynch, and that's true, but if you put constant pressure on somebody, and give what look like decent reasons, that's what you'll get. Somebody as experienced as you should know that.

No. It can lead to a lynch if the player still seems scummy after some questioning. I wouldn't let it get to a quicklynch unless something extreme (scum claim for example) happened.

And don't point at experience like that until you know what you're talking about.

As far as the bandwagon vote, it might not be voting for the sake of the bandwagon, but it is starting the bandwagon, which could be just as bad...

I don't see anything wrong with being the first vote on a bandwagon. All it means is that your case was good enough that people followed suit.

Let's see if I can understand the Bub wagon.

Bub seems to really want to extend the RVS

Fair reason for an early game vote.

Clinging to the RVS is never a good thing, especially when a case (albeit not that great in my opinion) is layed out.

Unvote
Vote: Bub

Maybe a little quick to hop on, but ok.

I..you can't be seriouslly....I mean. I can't even think of a logical response from how unbelievably illogical your response was.

vote:bub bidderskins

Not seeing the problem, but this is still a town reaction.

bub made an illogical counter to a valid point.

Also, his actions toward Kmd could be considered a chainsaw defense of cool, I think...

Got no better candidates, so:

unvote, Vote: Bub Bidderskins

Ok, this vote is coming from scum.

Oh, and milkshake. What flavour are you exactly?

Well, banana, isn't it clear?

I would like to remind you that I posted that a ways back. A long ways back as a matter of fact. Maybe you are the one clinging to the RVS.

This didn't make any sense. I think it is fair to say that nonsense is anti-town, and so I find Bob a very small bit (say, 5%) suspicious.

and that KMD is just trying to keep the game moving

He made this out as a reason that KMD is scum... but last I heard keeping the game moving was unequivocally pro-town!

So, since I think that one of the very few ways the town can actually get information on day 1 is to get someone to high votes (so that they might claim or do something else interesting), and since I think Bob's defense of himself would be interesting, I'll go ahead and add one

Vote: Bob Bidderskins

.

Re-state what everyone else has said, acknowledge that there's a wagon, and vote. Along with your reaction to the CooL vote I layed down, you are scum.

ah, I love an active mafia.

Bub is inconsistent and illogical and shows a haughty nature a lot of mafias tend to try to cover themselves with.

unvote, vote Bub

I love it when the mafia slips up.

Not seeing the slip. Not liking the vote. I doubt that Ray, milk, and Jordan are all scum who voted three in a row like that though. So one of you is probably town, which hurts to think about.

*sigh* you all want to know what I think of Bub? Ok, I know him in real life and he plays just the same in the game. He is an ass hole if you ever saw one, he is always raving on and on about how it's all about perspective. But he never seems to get my perspective on him. I do find some of his posts a little bit suspicious at least, so I might just go ahead and

vote: bub bidderskins

. The post about the rvs got to me. The game SB was talking about left the RVS after my first post, remember?

WTF. This is very interesting because none of the last FOUR VOTES now have looked like town votes at all.

Bub makes no sense to me. I don't want him in the game because of this.

Vote Bub

This is SSK regardless of alignment. Gonna say town just because I don't think he'd follow his buddies so blatantly.

So, you want him lynched just because you don't want him in the game? And that's enough reason? I'm sorry, I thought we were trying to hunt mafia, not players we don't like (not that Bub is not acting weird). And, talking about that, his case is getting stronger, and I'm finding him suspicious. And for that,

Vote: Bub

. His last vote against CD seemed more omgus than not, specially after Vi's quotes on 136. Clinging to reasons that can apply to himself is not a good thing.

Sounds like more reason for you to vote SSK than Bub, but I think you're town. And I think I know who you are.

Scum list coming in my next post so I don't accidently megapost (which this may have turned into. My bad if it did...)

[Kmd4390]

The scummiest scum:
RayFrost - "Random" voted on a player who already had a real case on him. Switched to another random vote when called on that. Bad vote on Bub. Sets himself up to vote either of the two leading wagons with his unvote and "can't decide" comment.
~Jordan` - You say you love an active game, yet you only have one post-RVS post. And it's one of the worst posts in the game.
CooLDoG -My initial vote was actually a "get things started" vote that I wasn't too sure of. I didn't like the reaction to it though.
tubby216-his response to Sajin's question was very.. not ready to start the game. Then he comes in to say he'd lynch either CooL or bub, the two main wagons. Very non-commital.

Maybe scum, but a second tier that's not as bad as the first and will probably list more town than the above list:
milkshake-I don't like either his defense of CooL or his vote on Bub.
Dramonic-Hmm. My gut said scum, but your posts in ISO look pretty townie..

Get in the game! I have no read:
Snow_Bunny -The no-red here is probably more my inability to read you than anything you are doing.
alvinz95 -Just a confirm and fluff post. Do something.
Lowell -Quickly jumped on CooL, then made a good theory point. Seems to be intentionally avoiding attention. If we have an SK or something, it's Lowell. This isn't his town game though, but it's not his scum game either...
Vaya -You confirmed, now play.

Probably town, but not as town as the list below this one:
Dry-fit -He was first to vote Bub. Decent reason to vote. Handled the fact that a wagon popped up exactly how I'd expect town to handle it.
Sajin-Mostly matching his town meta. I don't think I've seen him as scum though.
Vi-One of the most pro-town appearing players so far. Vi is a very good player though, so I'm cautious towards determining her alignment just yet.
MafiaSSK -He's making himself difficult to read. This is how I expect him to play though, and my gut says town.
imaginality-Pro-town early game. V/LA makes it harder to get any more than that.
manho-I had you in the "no read" category then viewed you in ISO. Looks good.

So obvtown that it's not even funny:
Hayker - Reminds me of Mafia 96, where I said the same thing. Also, the caution thing, while I disagree, sounds like a town thought process.
DeathNote -Was scum in Death Note mafia and didn't give quite as much of an opinion on anything.
Bub Bidderskins -The wagon is so scummy that he's town by default. Which is fine because that's the gut read I had on him anyway.
Kmd4390- This guy is helping the town so much right now that if he's scum, we're all in trouble anyway.

[Kmd4390]

FAIL. Forgot to:

Unvote, Vote Rayfrost

[CooLDoG]

Ray looking back and re-reading does seem a bit wish-washy. He jumped on me, then on Vi (I think) and now votes on bub. He made three vote changes in under 48 hours (if I am counting right). I still want to keep the press on bub for now. But later he might be a good second choice for a vote if you get what I mean. And, KMD you forgot about a player named:manho. He has not posted much actually.

[Kmd4390]

And, KMD you forgot about a player named:manho. He has not posted much actually.

Probably town, but not as town as the list below this one:
manho-I had you in the "no read" category then viewed you in ISO. Looks good.

[CooLDoG]

sorry my bad.

[Vi]

Kmd, I am

insulted

curious about how you have Hayker below me in your Town list

because I'm always Town

. Could you elaborate on why you're calling him "so obvTown it's not funny" in spite of him not having done anything productive all game except OMGUS?
I similarly disagree with your SSK read, because I think he actually

would

follow his buddies blatantly tbh.

I agree with one aspect of your RayFrost vote - everyone who threw the term out "chainsaw defense" (implying that Bub and CooLDoG are scum together, making this whole which-wagon-to-support decision easier!) should earn serious scum points. Those people were RayFrost and imaginality.

[Kmd4390]

I trust a gut read on Hayker more than I do on you. It's more a compliment than an insult.

I can maybe see your point on SSK. I don't consider that one of my strongest reads though.

Let's start a wagon on Ray and get that all the way to a lynch.