Open 163 (Jungle Republic)- Game Over before 835

[Nikanor]

Even with your "gambit" the 912,913,914 reads as someone obvious to mafia role.

Obvious, or oblivious? I don't see how 'obvious' works at all, so I'm going to assume you meant 'oblivious.' Correct me if I'm wrong.

It might be bias based on Internal Mafia though.

The difference between the Toro in that game and the Toro in this game is that Toro didn't even really put up a fight in this game.
Basically, the way the tell works is that the earlier a person gives up, the scummier they are. It's really only a town tell if the person has been on death row for nearly the entire day.

[Shotty to the Body]

@Nik

I'm still getting mildly bad vibes coming from this attack on Toro. Even with your "gambit" the 912,913,914 reads as someone obvious to mafia role. It might be bias based on Internal Mafia though.

In a way your little gambit can be considered a deflection away from the Scott wagon with some distancing mixed into it. It's faint in subtext, but it's there and might warrant a reread.

What? How is discussing our Wincon scummy, can you go over that again? DTM is running cover for Toro here.

IF YOU HAVENT ADDRESSED WHAT I POSTED IN 973 DO SO NOW AND THEN TELL US WHO YOU THINK IS SCUMMIEST AND WHY

[hasdgfas]

Can we focus? I want opinions on Toro and an explanation of why you think either Nik or peace is more scummy then him at this point in time. What do you think of Toro Cow?

I think he's a VI.

[Nikanor]

In a way your little gambit can be considered a deflection away from the Scott wagon

Deflection away from a wagon I started?

[peacesells]

In a way your little gambit can be considered a deflection away from the Scott wagon

Deflection away from a wagon I started?

I'd have to agree here in being confused. What Scotty Wagon?

[Toro]

Sorry for not posting Nik, of where do you want me to post my thoughts of peacesells, from the start of D3 or throughout the game?

[DTMaster]

@Nik
1000: Sorry, my bad with spell checks and such. The correct term is oblivious.

The details of the game vary slightly, but there are a couple of things to remember in comparison between Internal and this game. Toro was a Town Rolebolcker in Internal, where survival of town PRs take precedence. Here the only town PR that is conformable is seer and the rest are VTs and scum factions. Unless this is Seer-Toro, all VT claims become moot since any nonSeer would have no choice but to claim VT in a normal gambit.

@Shotty

1001:

Some things to clairfy first:

1. I didn't say discussing win conditions was scummy. Quote me here but I don't understand what Wincon means otherwise. What I wanted to say which Nik corrected was:

in those posts 912-914 Toro forgot that Mafia couldn't kill. Now Mafia-scum Toro would know this particular detail, especially given that part of their role is night talking. Mafia's powers are minority confirmation of their partners, and their weapons are only town discussion. In essence they are focused on creating mislynches and hunting down the wolves. It's been two nights. Mafia-scum Toro would have to be extremely forgetful to forget that: Mafia cannot kill considering he would have been part of night discussions in the above planning.

Thus I feel that Toro is oblivious to mafia workings from this. It doesn't clear him from being wolf scum, but from the whole exchange it reads as:

Unknowing-Toro then Mafia-Toro.

I'll post this thought first and give you a more detailed ISO read on Toro in response to your original analysis after. Give me a second. You can vote me if I don't give you my case within the next couple of hours.

@Has
Toro is VI? You mean VT? What's VI?

@Town
Anyone going to answer me about my question on Hohum's meta or do I have to search it up on my own.

[saberwolf]

Dead people are dead

[peacesells]

DTM..I'll give a small crack at it. Started to read his ISO and wow..his 2nd post really struck me as odd and pretty much sums up his non-contributing later in the game.

1st post

I'm going to waste my vote on a serious note:

Vote Mastin

I know you think it's cute to go on text-wall rants that span multiple pages; however all you're really doing is wasting a lot of your (and what's infinitely worse) and everyone else's time. For the sake of our sanity please learn to incorporate the art of brevity into your writing.

Now read his 2nd one..

I joined this game specifically to make that post. I'm a little disappointed that I didn't hit the preview button first, because it needed proof reading. The point still stands though.

Also: @saberwolf, please don't encourage him.

He then goes on to be completely beligerant (sp?) with posts like the following:

I've answered your question 3 times already. Pay attention, dumbass.

That was about his 5th direct insult.

After that he went AWOL with only token posts when called on it. This was one.

\o/

Then he posted he was basically inactive in all games but someone pointed out by using Google search you could find that he was lying about his inactivity. Votes started being placed on him...he didn't put up any fight, in fact encouraged the voting for him. Finally he self-hammered.

Going back to his 2nd post it seems he was being honest. He was really only here to harass Mastin. Amazing a Mod would actually behave this way.

He did have arguments with Nik, Saber and You. Most/harshest of his insults directed at Nik.

Now I've just realized you asked for his meta..bah and I thought you meant his actions in this game. I haven't done a meta on him, but I never do that. Ah well, still worth posting I believe in case there was some bussing going on.

[DTMaster]

TORO PBPA Part 1: All are done in ISO with notes.

1: Actually this was a general issue that was raised with Cain during the original discussion between myself, Nikanor, Sabre and Hohum. Please note that Kill-kill also interjected with his RVS vote in midst of the discussion and provided little analysis at the start of the day which was a scummy point against him, despite Kill's town flip.

2-6: Is more bandwagon argument banter about Toro and Cain here.

7: Nik pointed out a defensive streak, but Toro admitted to the falling. It's actually a point against Toro here.

8: This is a valid sarcastic given that Cain failed to scum hunt. You can see that I was attacking Cain later on that day and did a lot of the questioning to get him to participate. You said the same thing about Kill in your ISO 2 but he flipped town.

If Peace/Cain flipped town I would say your argument that Toro was tunneling on the noob has more water from here. We don't know Peace's alignment. If he was scum then we caught noob scum. Failure to scumhunt and provide analysis is anti-town, and borderline scummy. Cain failing to produce analysis means he built up a case against himself since the above is an appropriate argument.

A Cain/Peace confirmation would strengthen the first part of the argument.

9: Over confidence/joke = bad on Toro.

10: Actually.. Toro mentioned the Mafia as evil Masons here. Then he forgot that they can kill today. Someone forgot to pay attention to the game methinks. /offtopic thought

11 and 13: Rehash argument. This is actually supporting your side more since redundancy over Cain's first vote is beginning to look scummy.

12: Meta discussion.

14: Began Sabre Attacks. 15-17 are: Sabre attacks, Rehash Cain, and blah statements.

21: Joke is actually another strike on Toro. It supports oart of how jumpy and easy Toro is to go on wagons.

33: The part where Toro jumps on would be a strike against Toro if: Cain didn't post his admission that he was actively lurking. Yes I get noob vibes from Cain, but we also attacked Hohum for actively lurking. You are making this into a double standard here.

The reason i sit back and watch is because this is only my third gama and im just watching, still having very little input, and yeah i know it looks scummy, but if i posted just lots of random posts then chances are i would be suspected of told im stupid.

[DTMaster]

@Sabre's Ghost
"hears the wind blow" Chilly

@Peace
Um that was useless, especially when I googled search him to point out how Hohum was lying and many of us attacked him. What I specifically need is outside complete meta where Hohum self-hammered himself. There is a reason I asked for it.

Rehashing this to "look helpful" when you just know that I asked for meta is really, really, really, really, pointless. If this was a case on a living person I would vote you for rehashing everything to appear townie contributing to discussion.

Frustration: Peace

[peacesells]

@Peace
Um that was useless, especially when I googled search him to point out how Hohum was lying and many of us attacked him. What I specifically need is outside complete meta where Hohum self-hammered himself. There is a reason I asked for it.

Rehashing this to "look helpful" when you just know that I asked for meta is really, really, really, really, pointless. If this was a case on a living person I would vote you for rehashing everything to appear townie contributing to discussion.

Frustration: Peace

Like I said in my last line. And don't be so arrogant to presume that everyone thinks the way you do.

[ThAdmiral]

Anyone getting a vibe that peacesells is bussing here?

He may have been bussing, but that would still depend on toro being scum, so you should be voting for toro anyway.

[peacesells]

Let me ask you one question DTM..do you think there is no value in looking at Hohum's interactions with others? Maybe your high horse can be lowered a bit to take different perspective.

[ThAdmiral]

Can we focus? I want opinions on Toro and an explanation of why you think either Nik or peace is more scummy then him at this point in time. What do you think of Toro Cow?

I think he's a VI.

Can you elaborate on this.
I know what a vi is but I feel that they are usually the victims of day 1 or 2 lynches, rather than day 3 or later lynches.

[DTMaster]

@Peace
1. There is a reason why I asked for a meta read. I see a potential Has Hohum link speculation over a minor detail about why has didn't vote Hohum. If you seek to look at the bussing angle you would obviously know that means presenting a case on Has since he is Mastin's replacement.

Acknowledging that you didn't answer my question, but totally went on a verbal tangent on Hohum himself is pointless. If you read your analysis, there is nothing new present other then: This looks like busing. The rest reads as rehash and: scum trying to hard too hard to "scum hunt" the wolves.

2. Mastin's walls are really tough to read, but he often goes inactive as well. But a pro-town Mastin usually is a good asset, once you sift through the information and he's reasonable caught up from my meta reads on him. You can sympathize with Hohum on the former, but the latter regards Mastin as a threat.

3. To answer your question, while yes it can be useful to look at Hohum's interaction, you do realize you totally sidestepped my question and admitted to it within the same post. There is nothing from stopping you from answering my question and doing a Hohum analysis at the same time.

@Admiral

I assume VI is what Sabre's ghost said, I mean what the wind whispered?

[DTMaster]

@Sotty:

Sorry Part 2 is going to wait, time for homework. You can choose to respond to or not, but the latter prevents bias from you.

[peacesells]

yes..I admitted to it at the bottom of my post because that is when I realized my error in reading your question..and decided to post anyway.

[Toro]

10: Actually.. Toro mentioned the Mafia as evil Masons here. Then he forgot that they can kill today. Someone forgot to pay attention to the game methinks. /offtopic thought

I'm pretty sure that I didn't say they could kill DTM, could you please post the link to my post?

[DTMaster]

Problem with that is, it doesn't really make them look anti-town at all. And we've got a long deadline, I'm sure we're going to find scum without any distractions.

And oh that honor hasn't gone to me? Phew!

Well its better to voice one's opinions than not. It's extremely anti-town to just say "I don't know" and offer no reads.

Also the first line of your post seems weird to me. Almost over-confidence that would only be seen from an non-town player.

Anyway, I have never played in a game where there is a anti-town group that does not have NKs. Anyone have experience with this setup?

Don't know how that makes me seem overconfident at all, just pointing it out.

Umm...yeah, just think

they're masons.

Except they're bad.

[Nikanor]

So DTM, what is your final opinion of Toro based on your analysis? I see a bunch of points for and against him, but we still don't have your opinion.

[DTMaster]

@Nik

I'm condensing my points atm. I'm at 30/100s. If you read above I'm still doing a part 2 of analysis to continue the rest of the PBPA. Why are you rushing this step for my answer Nik?

As it stands I'm starting to reconsider my position as well due to some scum patterns that emerge and a lesson learned from my first newbie game.

[Nikanor]

Why are you rushing this step for my answer Nik?

Oh, I missed where you had said you were writing more. I tend to skim your posts, as I will hang myself if I dwell on your posts for too long. Oh, English language, how DTM butchers you!

[Shotty to the Body]

Why are you rushing this step for my answer Nik?

Oh, I missed where you had said you were writing more. I tend to skim your posts, as I will hang myself if I dwell on your posts for too long. Oh, English language, how DTM butchers you!

I lold, sure thing, take whatever time you need to finish your post, but try and make it expedient DTM.

[ThAdmiral]

@Admiral

I assume VI is what Sabre's ghost said, I mean what the wind whispered?

Usually you claim someone is a VI if they are going to be lynched early in a game for saying stupid stuff etc. It is rare to find them popping up later in games hence my question.