Mafia 104 - Revenge of the Crimson King - Game!

[Cyberbob]

My thoughts on this are that you should

both

shut the fuck up.

[Raivann]

I think you should both get some sweet orange shades for your avatars.

[Kise]

I think they either need to kill the noise, or become the D1 & D2 lynches.

Please, guys, could you cut out the personal attacks? I get bad memories of ABR/zwet.

[xRECKONERx]

So you'd want to lynch them just because they're annoying you? /facepalm

[Kise]

No, because I don't want the negativity to kill the fun. Now answer my question.

[Devestation]

This being such a large game, I am starting to wonder about the players that are blatantly lurking and staying under the radar. There are a lot of them, and I am positive they aren't all town.

Quite a few players are not posting any worthwhile content whatsoever, and they are getting away with it. 10 pages in should be enough time for them to do SOMETHING, but they aren't. I'm sure everyone can figure out who, but if you want a list I can give one.

Sorry, my bad, feel free to FoS me or spank me or whatever

[Devestation]

Woawoawoawoawoawoawoa... chill pill people... Nobody is going to die in a fire until tonight, where it's odds on the scum will choose just that method of death in the name of irony.

[Raivann]

Bread good, Fire bad.

[RayFrost]

Exalt, I know you get hyped up, but here's a note:

die in a fire is a

non-serious

internet term.

You should

not

take everything you read to be literal.

VP/Amished & Exalt:

would you both mind commenting on your thoughts elsewhere in the game? It's kinda hard to sift through who is and isn't contributing when you lot are

still

attacking each other.

Seriously.

Just agree to disagree.

Then move on.

It's gotten to the point where it's "ure scum! no ure scum!" argument.

Move. The. Fuck. On.

[xRECKONERx]

No, because I don't want the negativity to kill the fun. Now answer my question.

What question?

[RayFrost]

@Big Willy - Do you remember in Day & Night that whole Monkey Vs. BC situation? Both flipped town, and the case against Monkey was that he said BC was overreacting. Would you say we're seeing similar words/thought patterns from Monkey here? I need a 2nd opinion.

[swimmer4lyfe]

exalt you need to go back to grade school you dyslexic moron instead of banging on the keyboard with your baby rattle

[swimmer4lyfe]

a real post tomorrow...been busy with tests today and yesterday

[Devestation]

*drowns swimmer4lyfe*

I thought I called for chill pills...

[RayFrost]

exalt you need to go back to grade school you dyslexic moron instead of banging on the keyboard with your baby rattle

*drowns in a half inch pool of muddy water*

I thought the dude above me asked for chill pills.

Also, personal attacks like this are, IIRC, against the rules.

so read the rules again.

carefully.

[Cyberbob]

exalt you need to go back to grade school you dyslexic moron instead of banging on the keyboard with your baby rattle

Mod: Requesting that swimmer4lyfe be replaced.

[Xylthixlm]

Everyone chill. I'm not going to do anything without Seraphim, but if this was

my

game there would be multiple people modkilled by now.

-Your backup mod

[RayFrost]

I hope that doesn't include me, xyl!

[Glork]

You can meta me if you'd like, since it will help you understand my playstyle a lot better. This kinda defeats the purpose when I explain it, but I guess I have no choice. I like to piss people off to the point where they think on emotion rather than logic, and usually this is a great way of catching scum. Emotions make people slip up, while logic does not. Calling someone a newb (even though they aren't) is sometimes a great way of achieving this.

I get firey myself, and I like to get the person I am attacking firey as well. They WILL slip up when emotions are involved. You piss someone off enough, and they will ruin their own game if it means they can get back at you somehow. Mad players don't proofread

I guess it is kinda useless posting this, but you asked. :/

This is about the answer I expected from you.

I only agree to a certain extent. Getting players riled up can be a decent way to get an initial read on a player you've never played with, but a few things here:
1) Thoroughly logical players (like myself) won't often let themselves be swayed by emotion one way or another. And on the occasions when they *do* get swayed by emotion, the changes in their behavior won't differ much as town or scum.
2) Making protown players behave irrationally is inherently harmful for the town. If you're protown, and you piss someone off to the extent that they just want you lynched --

even if you manage to get your protown read on them

-- you stand a very real chance of sending them down the wrong path.
3) As I touched upon, a scum who makes a protown player behave emotionally rather than rationally gains a HUGE advantage. Like in point 2, they may want to lynch you, but if you can "expose" them for using poor logic and arguments, and turn their words against them, you can lead mislynches which wouldn't otherwise be possible. So while I fully understand the protown upside to making players play emotionally, I also know from experience that there's a scumbaggo upside, too. Part of your job is to convince me that you want the former, and not the latter.
4) The strategy only works for a while, because eventually players become desensitized to you. Whether that happens from playing multiple games with you, during the first game, or before they ever play with you (from reading games you were in), I sincerely hope you don't plan on doing this forever.


In this respect, I guess I see you as a younger and much less refined me, Exalt. I like to stir the pot, and I like to push people to the edge, but I don't do it with worthless personal attacks. Being demeaning towards a player -- whether it's calling them "Newbie," launching other ad-hom attacks, or anything similar -- serves to cause unnecessary conflict. If you want a great example of "pushing someone to the edge" in order to find scum without acting like a jackass, check out the first few pages of Sesame Street Mafia. I acted completely off the wall and, based on the reactions to my behavior, I was ultimately able to pick out a couple of scums before getting killed Night One.


In completely unrelated news, "GDIAF" (aka, Go Die In A Fire) has been around on the internets for ages. If you didn't know that, whatever, I can see why you blew up at the comment, but it doesn't mean a damned thing in my book except that Merk is annoyed with you. I think you both need to chill out and realize that this is a GAME, and ultimately mostly meaningless.

I think they either need to kill the noise, or become the D1 & D2 lynches.

Unvote, Vote: Kise

solely for the second half of that question. Two people who can't get along with each other is NOT a reason to lead two lynches. Makes me wonder if you're hoping someone will bite on the chance for a pair of early-game mislynches.

[Glork]

@Glork: I want to touch on your point about the chainsaw. MMan's vote on swimmer is weak, while CyberBob's is also extremely weak. EMP's vote can hardly be called a vote due to the lack of reasoning. I've expressed my opinion on Exalt's vote for Swimmer, so out of the wagon, there are three bad votes on somebody. It is due to this, and this only (I have never tried to defend anything that Swimmer has said, and I agree with VP that RayFrost was not being overdefensive WRT S4Lyfe's original vote) that I would put s4L in a non-scum category. The poor attacks look a lot more like scum attacking her {swimmer} than town, and I don't feel that they would buss like that this early in the game. You {Glork} seem to have the best thought out case, so I want to renew the request to put a list of points that against her that you feel says that swimmer is scum.

Re: Chainsaw, I basically said that I agree that you punishing bad attacks is 100% legit. I don't think that the "Chainsaw Defense" is a legit scsumtell, because any protown player doing his or her job should punish bad attacks.


Now, regarding Swimmer: I can't speak for anybody else, but there were three main reasons I was voting for Swimmer
1) In the context of self-defense, Swimmer claimed that Ray's playstyle was inherently scummy, and that Ray was trying to get away with "being scummy." I disagree that Ray's playstyle is inherently scummy, because I also defend myself very passionately, and I don't think of myself as inherently scummy (although there are a select few players on this site who would disagree with that self-assessment0.
2) Swimmer never adequately explained

how

Ray was "over-defensive" as opposed to being just "defensive," even after I pointed this out. It made me think that Swimmer didn't actually have a reason for calling Ray over-defensive, and that he was just riding the coattails of another player.
3) Swimmer's freaking out about the vote count seemed like possible scum paranoia to me. Swimmer explained this away by saying he subconsciously miscounted the votes, or something. I can tentatively accept that, as I think everyone is entitled to making mistakes, but there's still a chance that Swimmer was freaking out because he thought he might draw too much attention to himself.

[Tarhalindur]

1)

I am moderately V/LA until Tuesday due to multiple upcoming tests. I should be able to post, but I cannot guarantee frequent posting.

2) For those of you asking for my reason for voting swimmer: I stated that reason in my original post. My intuitive response to the quoted posts was that they did not come from an inexperienced townie. Usually I'd back this up with meta evidence from completed swimmer4lyfe games, but this is not possible given that swimmer has no completed games at all.

The closest I can figure out to *why* that was my response to the quoted swimmer posts was because swimmer, an apparently raw newbie, was justifying his/her RayFrost vote by referencing Mafia theory concepts:

@wicked: yes! wait I mean no...oh god I always get these questions wrong

Man, you guys take the RVS way further than anything I've seen before.

... And there's the first slip of the game.

Unvote: Riceballtail, Vote: Cyberbob

Tar, I have a lot of respect for you and imma let you finish, but can you explain what you are talking about here?

I think this is the scummiest post here. It's pretty obvious what Tar is referring to.

People are RVSing it up, and usually the person that tries to show themselves as serious and waiting for RVS to be up is very likely to be scum.

I think its silly to ask Tar to clarify, and shows a subtle connection between you and Cyberbob.

Vote: RayFrost

There's a difference between doing a protown move to get us out of the RVS and commenting on how the RVS sucks and not contributing. Cyber distinctly did the

former

.

RayFrost's overdefensiveness is noted

, and his defense of "this is my style, get over it" is not good town play.

We're the judge of his play. If you are aware of your actions, why are you intentionally doing something scummy?

Speaks of scum trying to get away with being scummy.

And yes, it was obvious what Tar was doing, and RayFrost's defense of Cyber is noted as a subtle connection

The three underlined sentences don't really make sense to me coming from a relatively raw newbie.

Moreover, the first underlined sentence reads IIoA (again, intuitive response), the overdefensiveness argument is craplogic (no such thing, and defense is a null tell), and the third sentence... why is it coming out of a newbie, again?

That said, there is one big, fairly universal tell in these two posts that I didn't actually notice the first time around:

@wicked: yes! wait I mean no...oh god I always get these questions wrong

For reference, the question:

swimmer4lyfe - Are you scum?

Joking is a general scumtell. Joking about being scum doubly so.

Now, as for Swimmer's more recent posts:

Rehashing what you said before doesn't make it any more valid.

Since your defense was basically going more indepth to what you did, my "rehashing" is just going into more depth of what I did. An explanation.

RayFrost's overdefensiveness is noted, and his defense of "this is my style, get over it" is not good town play. We're the judge of his play. If you are aware of your actions, why are you intentionally doing something scummy? Speaks of scum trying to get away with being scummy.

Swimmer, I have a scenario for you which I would like you to respond to.

Suppose Player X is protown.
Suppose Player Y attacks Player X. Player Y's alignment in this case is irrelevant.

Is it scummy for a Player X to try to prevent other players from suspecting him by responding to Player Y's attack?

No, it's not scummy to defend yourself. It is scummy to say "this is how I roll, just deal with it" when that "way that he rolls" is scummy.

Intuition says you're either an alt or newbscum. Possibly both.

Unvote, Vote: swimmer4lyfe

Wow, that's an interesting observation. Either I'm veteran town, veteran scum, or newb scum. I very keenly observe that you are able to discern this is worth a vote.

What makes you think cyber is scum instead of lazy town? Also, what do you think of monkeyman?

It's like this: Everyone knows there is a RVS stage, and then someone says something stupid or whatever and everyone goes crazy and that person is in the spotlight.

Cyber's comment looks like someone who is aware of the spotlight and doesn't want to be in it, but also wants to appear concerned about getting on with the game without getting involved. I find this scummy because why would a townie care about the spotlight? Townies worry about one thing, scum hunting. This commenting on the RVS without participating in the RVS is a way I have found the scum to act so they do not get involved in any of the spotlight but appear to be contributing.

It's definitely a scummy move.

I agree with monkeyman about the overdefensive aspects of Ray's defense. I have also pointed out the parts of Ray's defense that are not town play. I have not paid attention to monkeyman outside of his overdefensive comment though.

On "we are the judge of your play": swimmer, I would like to know where you were first introduced to this line of reasoning. (It reminds me of lines I used to use as a newb, before I concluded that there were few, if any, universal scumtells, but IIRC it took longer for me to start using them.) The reason I called you either an alt or newbscum is because I have difficulty seeing these lines come from a player with NO completed games and only two uncompleted ones.

I'll withhold my response to your attack on Cyberbob for the time being - there's a Cyberbob meta tell I want to follow up on before I reveal what it is.

Not paying attention to MonkeyMan: Why not?

Also just want to make an additional comment. With as much attention and flak I'm getting for pointing out something I have found scummy, I'm pretty sure I hit gold. I doubt I'll be changing my vote for awhile.

Don't like this post... especially not the "happy with my vote" part at the end.

overdefensiveness is a scum tell only when you can tell the difference between it and defending yourself

your "Scum tell" on me is asking Tar for clarification because I didn't understand.

That's why it is a crap case.

I know the difference between overdefensiveness and defending oneself. Yours felt over the top.

My "scum tell" is Cyber's attempt to stay out of the spotlight, which I've already explained. Your subtle defense of him is noted, and I don't believe you when you say you don't understand. I found it to be obvious.

Tar has also stated pretty much exactly what I have said in that regards...why no suspicion on him?

- What is this "personal scumtell", exactly, and how is it applicable to both myself and Ray? I mean inductive logic is terrible at the best of times, but you're taking it one step further here.
- The reasons for your case being bad have already been covered. I don't feel like repeating what other people have said on the very same page.

How am I putting words in your mouth?

I've already explained what the personal scumtell is. Maybe you should read the thread.

This is putting words into my mouth:

You've got a serious self-fulfilling prophecy going on here, my friend. I'd bet a lot of money that if you'd been ignored you'd be going on about "omg scum coverup I'M ONTO SOMETHING HERE" instead

Why the unwillingness to consider the possibility that you might be wrong? Why the hostility towards another player raising that possibility?

Does anyone else think this bandwagoning on me is scummy at WORST?

Three people have voted me with little to no reasoning and/or horrible reasoning. In fact I think I'm close to lynch.

I have used logic and reasoning to defend my actions and I get voted for it? Do you seriously think this is good townie action?

And just when I think that you're showing too much knowledge of Mafia theory to be inexperienced... you drop a classic newb tell.

Moreover, you already showed knowledge of the obvious newb counterargument ("we'll be the judge of whether you've used good logic and reasoning to defend yourself") in your attack on RayFrost. Hypocrisy much? (Hypocrisy is another of the few general tells, especially coming from a player with no real meta to look at.)

No, it's not scummy to defend yourself. It is scummy to say "this is how I roll, just deal with it" when that "way that he rolls" is scummy.

That doesn't make any sense. "The way that he rolls" is to defend himself when attacked. You just called that both not-scummy and scummy in the same post.

Unvote, Vote: Swimmer

telling people that your town play is scummy is not a defense. It's a weak excuse to behave scummily.

No, it's an indicator that, for RayFrost, the behavior you considered scummy *isn't* a scumtell.

Best thing I can see in your favor right now is that tunnel vision (which you are clearly falling victim to) is a newb town tell. That's not reassuring me.

-----

Short notes on other matters:
- I've been working on total reads of the players in the game (reading through a player's posts in isolation in 10-50 completed games, looking for patterns as scum and as town). This is a time-intensive process, and I've been short on time lately with real life issues and modding Legacy of the Ancients, hence the lack of posts so far.
- Merkabah vs. Exalt: Knock it off. Now. That goes double for you, Merkabah: total read on Exalt's past games indicates to me that he's very probably town (the main reason for doubt here is that Exalt has been scum in exactly one completed game, and that was some time ago).
- I have my opinions on Merkabah, but I am not going to say what those opinions are at this time - I want to see more posting from Merkabah before I make a firm conclusion on him. For now, suffice it to say that I may have found a meta tell on one of the hydra heads, but I need more time to make sure that it's applicable.
- I need to finish a total read on MonkeyMan, but given what I've read so far I'm uneasy about him; in particular, his play here so far generally reminds me of his play as scum in just-completed Gurren Lagann.
- There's a few players I consider fairly or strongly town other than Exalt, but I'm not sure whether I should reveal them at this time.

[Exalt]

Reading some of the replies, I will say I overreacted. Die in a fire isn't exactly a term I'm used to, but possibly that is a generation gap. I don't know. Either way, I'm over it.

Merkabah: I apologize for the personal attacks that were not related to scum hunting, aka "newbie" etc statements. Perhaps that was uncalled for on my part as well.

I'm going to drop the subject if all parties agree, and move on with the game.

I can say that Merkabah used MY playstyle against me very well. The reaction I gave is usually the type that I get pushing others, and so I guess I am guilty of overreacting to a very large extent. I disagree with his statement being a necessary part of the game, but I'll drop it from here on.

TBH, I didn't even notice it til I reread his posts after his latest attack. When I saw it, I blew up. Normally, if someone said that to me, I wouldn't be complaining so much more so as to confront them about it. Anyway, I do give Merkabah props for using my playstyle against me so well. There is a first for everything!

If he agrees to stop using baseless name calling in his attacks on me, then I will agree to not do it to him as well. We can scum hunt each other without that.

I hope this post helps.

[xRECKONERx]

@Big Willy - Do you remember in Day & Night that whole Monkey Vs. BC situation? Both flipped town, and the case against Monkey was that he said BC was overreacting. Would you say we're seeing similar words/thought patterns from Monkey here? I need a 2nd opinion.

Yes, I do remember that. While I do think we're seeing similar thought patterns here, I don't think it means we should discredit Monkey's overeagerness to get a shady lynch going.

[Devestation]

OOC: On a completely unrelated topic, where is everyone getting dem orange sunglasses from?

[RayFrost]

OOC: On a completely unrelated topic, where is everyone getting dem orange sunglasses from?

The finished teppen gurren lagan required them.

People are getting them by asking kison or jahudo