[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Alduskkel]

Sounds like a decent setup, Max.

Nominate Wheels on the C9+2

[Alduskkel]

I'm not sure I like that set-up, IIRC, last time it was run most of the Mafia died by failed day kills.

[Alduskkel]

Just throwing a random idea out there:

Serial Killer Mafia

15 players:

3 SKs
11 Townies
1 Cop

The town wins when all SKs are dead.

The SKs when everyone else (including all other SKs) are dead.

I don't like how an SK is almost immediately fucked if he gets investigated.

[Alduskkel]

You still haven't gotten the joke yet have you jdodge? It was a satirical character rant that you took seriously. I never was pick pocketed by a gypsy. I act and make shit up all the time cause I find it amusing and I thought others would get a kick out of it. Ythill got it and figured I was joking, why didn't you?

Suppose I could have better played the performance by making an alt account separate from my own account where I could have done the rant, but meh. Sarcasm and satire fail on the net I guess.

Though I do think Unconventional is a better name for the setup than Jew still

The joke that needs to be explained was delivered by a poor comedian.

Or the comedian has a dense audience.

Or both.

[Alduskkel]

Remove the win condition of no one being replaced due to inactivity. That penalizes people for being active, which is the opposite of how I think you intended that role.

[Alduskkel]

I have no clue how to balance setups. I can spot blatantly unbalanced setups, but that's it. I was merely pointing out that the Punisher role simultaneously rewards activity and inactivity, as well as punishing both. I'm fine with punishing inactivity, but punishing activity seems ridiculous.

[Alduskkel]

How about this?
2 Mafia Goons
1 Even Night Cop
1 Odd Night Doctor
5 Vanilla Townies
Day Start

[Alduskkel]

How about this?
2 Mafia Goons
1 Even Night Cop
1 Odd Night Doctor
5 Vanilla Townies
Day Start

This setup needs a name.

Also, is it balanced?

[Alduskkel]

How about this?
2 Mafia Goons
1 Even Night Cop
1 Odd Night Doctor
5 Vanilla Townies
Day Start

This setup needs a name.

Also, is it balanced?

[Alduskkel]

Wait, no one has said anything about whether it is balanced or not!

Also, I prefer

Alternating C9

.

[Alduskkel]

It's my setup! I don't even 'get' AC9/DC9.

[Alduskkel]

Because Mafia is soooo related to some band!

[Alduskkel]

[Alduskkel]

Given that it's my setup I think I should be the one who gets the final say in what it shall be called. >.>

[Alduskkel]

1 Ninja
1 Goon

1 Watcher
1 Tracker
3 Townies

This set-up reminds me very closely of the Pie E7 set-up that was discarded from the Newbie Queue awhile ago. I'd hate to be the remaining scum if my Ninja-scum buddy was lynched Day 1.

Don't kill anyone and hope for the best.

[Alduskkel]

Nominate Fire and Ice

[Alduskkel]

The only thing Cops are good for in that setup is claiming and then being confirmed through lack of a counterclaim.

[Alduskkel]

The only thing Cops are good for in that setup is claiming and then being confirmed through lack of a counterclaim.

I don't think so.

suppose:
day 1: vanilla townie lynched
night 1: vanilla townie killed
day 2: vanilla townie killed
night 2: vanilla townie killed
day 3: 5 cops claim, each with 1 guilty and 1 innocent investigation result.

Do you see how the town could easily analyze those claims, confirm some players, and find a path to success?

In that case just nominate a Dethy game.

[Alduskkel]

@Farside:

If the Vig shoots the mafia Nurse, who protacted him/herself, vig claims, and lynches a mafia.

Only if the Roleblocker is dead.

[Alduskkel]

Think it would be better without the self protect.

Also Roleblocker and Role Cop on the mafia side seems overpowered. Why is the Roleblocker there, and why isn't there a back-up roleblocker?

I agree with this.

I think having a vigilante and a roleblocker distracts from the tit for tat thing going on. Give the town some back up roles or leave them out.

You need the Vigilante to make the Mafia Nurse relevant. And with a Vigilante, I think the Mafia could use a Roleblocker.

[Alduskkel]

Nameless Experimental #1

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Cop Killer
1 Cop
1 Doc
5 Townies

The Cop Killer will kill the Cop when performing the nightkill regardless of whether the Cop is protected by the Doc or not. It will not kill a Townie if the Townie is protected by the Doc. (This is fairly close to Bird C9.)

Doesn't the mafia auto-lose if the Mafia Cop Killer is lynched Day One and the town massclaims Day 2 for the same reason the mafia autoloses Pie E7 if the Roleblocker is lynched Day 1? Because of that, I think the Cop Killer needs to be an inherit trait for both Mafia members.

In other words, it needs to be Bird C9.

[Alduskkel]

Make it 14:2:2. Every Mafia (Goons and RB,if any) get one-shot nightkill immunity. Ninja, if any, gets no night kill protection.

With a 50% chance of there being only 1 Doctor in an 18p setup, if a Mafia fails to make a kill then they're just going to target the player a second time. So you're just delaying the cross killing.

[Alduskkel]

I wonder at what point it would be correct play for the Scum to NK one of their own.

[Alduskkel]

That just makes it swingy.

[Alduskkel]

Jack of All Trades Mafia
3 Mafia (0-1 of which is a JOAT)
10 Townies (1-2 of which is a JOAT)

Each JOAT gets 3 abilities randomly selected from the following list (all 1-shot):
1.Track
2. Protect
3. Watch
4. Investigate
5. Kill (?)
6. Roleblock
7. NK Immunity (?)
8. Role Cop
9. Jailkeep

?s for ones I'm not sure should be included. Also, I was thinking that if a JOAT ability is roleblocked then it's permanently used up. Also, should NK Immunity be blockable? Usually it's a passive ability, but in this case it's an activated one. Finally, how do you resolve two people blocking each other if one is using an additional action (e.g. protecting via jailkeep, or attempting to kill someone)?

[Alduskkel]

I think you would have a problem if you did a similar thing to what broke Texas Justice: Have every Tracker target the person below them (bottom targets the top). Now the 2 Mafia Goons will get picked off (they'll either be revealed as targeting no one, or targeting the night kill) and it'll become Nightless with just the Mafia Tracker remaining.

Even if you made all of the Mafia into Trackers, it would still just be 11-3 Nightless.

[Alduskkel]

Isn't it really easy to figure out if you're the Vigilante?

[Alduskkel]

I think the Town would try to lynch anyone who didn't announce in thread who they were voting for.

[Alduskkel]

Behold, a setup inspired by chess and the Matrix6 setup:

Knight-Errant 17p

Then, using the following table:

Town Doctor	Mafia Jailkeeper	Town Gunsmith	Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Godfather	Town Cop	Mafia Watcher	Town Tracker
Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Bulletproof	Mafia Jailkeeper
Mafia Watcher	Town 3-Shot Commuter	Mafia Godfather	Town Roleblocker

Imagine a chess knight placed randomly on the 4x4 table. Then, pick a random move available to that knight. For example, you could pick Town Cop + Tracker vs. Mafia Roleblocker + Watcher.
Add 2 Masons and 2 Mafia Goons.
Then add a JOAT Serial Killer. The SK has 1-shot abilities according to the setup that was chosen. If an ability shows up twice (e.g. a setup with a Mafia Roleblocker and a Town Roleblocker) then the ability is 2-shot. The SK also has a 1-shot strongman.

Mafia Godfathers are both bulletproof and investigation immune.

Setup is 12-4-1 overall.

[Alduskkel]

Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Jailkeeper and Town Roleblocker all in the one setup, sounds bad to resolve, especially when you add the SK's abilities to that mix as well.

Well, maybe put in a Watcher somewhere instead of a Roleblocker or two. Or separate the Roleblockers positionally on the table. Trying to fit in relatively unique PRs while keeping the setup normal (role-wise) is tough.

...that sounds like a horrifically complicated way for the mod to screw it up and/or end up with an unplayable game anyway.

Maybe blend it with PYP: Mod picks the first power role. First player to signup picks a knight move to enable the second role, second player uses a knight move from that spot, etc. Or do it after WC assignment, but that sounds fraught with disaster.

My original intent with the setup was to have really weird setup speculation and/or fake claim possibilities due to the nature of the setup selection, so making it essentially open instead of semi-open defeats the "spirit of the game" here.

I don't see how it's especially prone to being screwed up, as long as the Mod has basic chess knowledge.

Are there any particular setup selections you consider potentially "unplayable"?

[Alduskkel]

It'd be easier to balance if I knew how many role combinations there were. But I'm not good enough at statistics to figure out how to determine that.

[Alduskkel]

If there's not going to be any more discussion (which would be fine, although I welcome any input) of my setup idea, then I will just try sending it through the Large Normal queue.

[Alduskkel]

The same page also says:

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

[Alduskkel]

According to this wiki page, 7:2 nightless is mildly town sided. 6:2 would be even 50-50.

[Alduskkel]

@Wake88: Seems town-sided. All else being equal, splitting up a scum group will favor the Town (the extra night kill is not enough to compensate for lack of coordination/active hostility and the chance for crosskills).

I don't have a good enough intuition of balance to say whether or not 15-3-3 is balanced or not. It would take 3 Day/Night cycles with 0 scum deaths for the Town to no longer be a majority, though, which doesn't seem unreasonable (9 deaths with 0 of them being scum is improbable).

For reference though, 2:2:9 is already a setup. I'm not convinced it's completely balanced (it seems suspicious that it conforms to the common 13p number), but a straight scale up to 3p scumteams would result in a 13.5 player town.

[Alduskkel]

What happens if two players target each other? If the answer is nothing, then I think you break the setup by pairing off players. Two town players do nothing to each other; two scum players also do nothing to each other; and town-scum pair will result in instant town victory.

If the scum are paired up together then reorganize the pairs and fire again.

If two RBVs targeting one another results in both dying, then it's probably still breakable, but I'd have to think about it more.

[Alduskkel]

Hmm, remember when Fire & Ice had no crosskills? And how that was ridiculously scum sided? Well, what if you combined Fire & Ice with Double Day?

Double Day Fire & Ice

2 Fire Mafia
2 Ice Mafia
1 Doctor
8 Townies

No crosskills, Mafia kills cancel each other out, and 2 lynches per day.

Balanced, y/n?

[Alduskkel]

If the doctor were just another VT then I make it that the random lynches/kills EV is just under 19%

Shit, really? Damn.

[Alduskkel]

Anyway, the upshot is that I

think

that a more accurate EV here is (a very slightly better) 21.2%. Again, that's with 9 VTs and no doctor.

But I'm pretty sure the general claim I made is still right -- if these numbers are even close to accurate, the set-up with a doctor seems unlikely to be balanced. (That's almost certainly true if you'd like town to be winning this about half the time, and is probably true even if you only want town to win a third of the time. I'm not sure which of these targets is what you'd want to meet to call the game 'balanced', actually. Possibly somewhere between the two?)

I'm okay with the Town winning only 30% of all games... but at this point the only solution is to add more PRs which will increase swing. Not really sure how to salvage the setup. Faction Cops are the obvious but shitty solution.

[Alduskkel]

Hmm, is there no hope for a setup that is
A) Multiball
B) Doesn't have crosskills
C) Isn't swingy as hell
D) Isn't insanely scumsided
E) Isn't nightless
F) Doesn't take forever to play (i.e. balancing just by jacking up town numbers extremely high, or something absurd like Triple Day)

[Alduskkel]

For the record, my hope was an open equivalent to this game.

[Alduskkel]

Hmm, wouldn't that be objectively better for the wolves though?

[Alduskkel]

It's not better for either team really, the problem however then becomes, if one side is entirely lynched, town will likely just curbstomp.

EDIT: you also get the problem of no kills happening a lot more often.

Odd-Even unless one team is eliminated? Sort of a Fire/Ice variant?

I think you two are overestimating the power of the Town. In fact, I'd say the main danger would be apathy, similar to mountainous (although, on the plus side, you'd have twice the chance of hitting scum).