Mini 903 - Owarai TV (Game over... who won?)

[xRECKONERx]

Why not think: "If I was town, there's no way in hell I'd claim that early for being halfway to a lynch" like VP and I did.

Because besides this game, I've never seen an early claim end up with a scum lynch.

[chauchaudotcom]

So I have a question for Dev.

ISO 14

If he's guilty, I assume we will ISO him and check his relations with everyone?

ISO 15

Wait, whoa, whats with all the hammering.

Inbetween which Rai voted, Amished Unvoted.

The vibe I got from iso 14 was that you were pretty content with a Hell lynch at that point. But iso 15 obviously showed you were not, despite the fact that the vote count on Hell didn't increase.

My question being what led you to think there was a hammer? And why were you questioning the hammering when your iso 14 talks about what to do after he flips?

[Amished]

@xRx: Why should that matter? I've never seen a town double voter, but I weigh what I would do if I was a double voter for each alignment.

Also, I'm highly skeptical about the mod changing anything midgame; especially in a mini where if you're in the queue for as long as it normally takes to get a game to mod; you have plenty of time to decide what each special role does, especially considering the invite to play PM that I got from Kise talking about natural scumhunters rather than a lot of power roles or anything to follow.

[Anon]

I dont think we can call Amished and Baltar omgsotownithurts just for the flip. Hell was pretty inexperienced and I dont think its that unlikely that an experinced scumpartner(s) would bus him from the beginning. Not that I find them scummy, but thats a long distance from being obvtown.

Amished and Baltar, since we talking about this, what do you think of Hell's early vote on me?

In other news, Im pretty sure Hell didnt mention or barely mentioned a scumpartner day 1 :

He random votes dev, Im his first serious case in iso 2, reck is his second one in iso 10, he asks questions to reck, amished, dev and baltar . He answers questions to raivann in iso 8 and 9. (I also think its likely there is a scum in this group)

So, people he barely mentioned: starbuck, raskol, dram, chauchau. Pretty sure we have at least one scum here. Im isolating each of them after job but for the moment:

Vote : Starbuck

Read somewhere that she is usually very aggressive to the wagons formed against her. But here, she has been totally the opposite, like being ironic to the wagon formed against her day 1. Starbuck, any explanation for this?

PS: I should find the thread in the night unless someone is too kind and already has it in watched topics.

[Raivann]

I still dont like Dev's case on xRx yesterday and I could see Hell random voting his scumbuddy like he did with Devestation.

Vote:Devestation

The name that comes up first from memory of trying to slow down the wagon was Raiv.

Actually it was Anon who politely requested someone unvote, so I did.
Dev. tried slowing down wagon the most with his case riddled with holes against xRx.

[xRECKONERx]

Hmm, Dev could've been chainsaw defending Hell, though I don't really think he'd be so obvious about it.

STARBUCK PLZ CONTRIBUTE MORE. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON D2 SO FAR?

[Raskol]

Hmmm.

vote: Reck

Not buying the doublevoter thing. It's impossible that Reck started out the game as a standard doublevoter, because a 6-vote wagon he was on didn't result in lynch. On the other hand, I seriously doubt Kise would fuck with us so much as to change someone's role in the middle of the game so that their vote counts for one at one point and for two at another. I mean, basically what Reck is saying Kise did is something like changing a cop's sanity, after their results have already been shared. That kind of thing is as far as I'm aware NOT ALLOWED (all caps, shift key to maximum) in a normal game and I'm thinking it's more likely that Reck is scum than that something like that was done. Especially given his godawful play yesterday, lack of pre-vote claim, etc, together with his change of heart and strangely serious attitude today.

I guess my thinking on this is that if believing a player in the game forces you to conclude that the mod of the game is a bastard when it's a normal game, then it's more likely that the player is lying. AFAIC, that means lynch Reck.

Also, if Reck is scum then anon probably is too. In evidence: anon's last post.

[xRECKONERx]

The six vote wagon didn't take effect because

at the time, I had to either vote separately in-thread, or PM my vote to the mod

. The first time I tried to do it was with the Hell wagon, and that's when I was informed that my PM had been worded wrong, and I couldn't split my votes up or privately PM it.

Look, the mod fucked up. Kise had asked me not to say anything publicly about it, but it's not fair for me to be forced a loss or a mislynch just because there was a little pre-game confusion.

[xRECKONERx]

I DIDN'T CLAIM BECAUSE I THOUGHT I COULD BE SECRETIVE ABOUT MY VOTES AND NOT BE AN OBVIOUS POWER ROLE TARGET

JESUS CHRIST.

I'm fucked because I can't ask for mod confirmation because that'd be veeeeery wrong. Mod fucked up, okay? Either buy it, or lynch me right fucking now.

[VP Baltar]

Now that hell has effectively flipped scum, I say we can lynch Rai.

No, I think his suspicion of Hell was pretty consistent when I went back and iso'ed him. I'm certainly not putting him in my strong town read category at this moment, but based on yesterday's events alone I don't think he's even close to the best lynch choice.

I do have a question though Raivann, why so sparse with your vote early on yesterday? After you unvoted starbuck it seemed like it took you awhile to find someone worth voting and I don't really know why.

Also on a reread I noticed that maybe I shouldn't have Amished so far into my town category. Don't get me wrong, I think he still looks the most likely to be town of anyone apart from myself, but looking back I do get a vague sense that he was following me a bit later in the day when it came to actually pushing the lynch through. It's not really anything worth being worried about at this point, but if Amished were scum I would definitely expect to try and buddy up to me.

Well, originally, the mod said I could privately PM him and vote. So I thought it'd be worth it. However, he revealed after I voted that after discussion with others, I have to double vote in-thread. So since I can't use my power without revealing myself anyway, I figured I can claim now. Plus, I didn't have TIME to claim before the day ended last time.

Ok, but what is the real point in keeping it hidden? What benefit does the town receive from that?

Pg. 8, after the vanilla claim xRx immediately unvoted. I knew that was weird for a reason; unvoting for any claim from scum (especially an unconvincing claim) is a huge scumtell in my book. There really was no way that the wagon was gonna be derailed so I could see him hammering to look better/"take the edge off" (so to speak) even being a double voter.

I can largely agree with this.

I'm a Town Doublevoter. I mean, I don't know how I can convince you, especially since I used my double vote to hammer my scum buddy. If you expect me to buy you and VPB as nearly-confirmed-town, you have to think that my two votes (equivalent of you and VPB's two votes) on a scumbuddy have the same effect. Had I just voted him, okay... but throwing on a second vote?

Eh, perhaps. However, you may have felt pressured to claim today because it was obvious that you were the likely double voter after the two different Hell wagons were compared (he got to L-1 before didn't he?). Yesterday you could have hammered thinking that you would be able to hide out among the other people on the wagon, but then realized over night that a PoE would fish you out quickly. Claiming straight up before you were found out would likely be the only route that a hypo-scum double voter would have at saving face.

Because I unvoted after the VT claim? Yeah, sorry for thinking "Hey, if I was scum, I'd fakeclaim a powerrole to try and draw out a counterclaim instead of just bending over and taking it up the ass with a VT claim!". I cannot stress enough that I obviously found him scummy enough to use my doublevote on him by the end of it.

As Amished rightly points out though, you essentially wasted your power if you are town because you outted yourself. The only real function of a pro-town double voter is to give town one extra mislynch. Essentially you could win the game for town in a 1-1 situation against scum, so why the hell would you feel compelled to out yourself on Day 1 on a lynch that was pretty much going to happen anyhow once the game got to deadline?

That's actually partially serious. My meta of Starbuck tells me she is scum this game, and I'd like to not really reveal what that meta is because then she'll play against it. Let's just say... there's a pretty blatant difference between town-Starbuck in every other game I've played with her and scum-Starbuck.

If you want to figure out what that meta is for yourself, read some of her games as town.

Don't expect others to fill in the blank for you. Also, why the heck are you voting when you have already claimed double voter. I suggest you just back off lest someone eventually gets lynched by "accident" because someone forgot that you have two votes.

Because besides this game, I've never seen an early claim end up with a scum lynch.

Well this is a lie. I can't talk about which game because it's ongoing, but I'm sure you can think about it and recall.

Also, I'm highly skeptical about the mod changing anything midgame; especially in a mini where if you're in the queue for as long as it normally takes to get a game to mod; you have plenty of time to decide what each special role does, especially considering the invite to play PM that I got from Kise talking about natural scumhunters rather than a lot of power roles or anything to follow.

I'm not sure what to think of this either, but this is Kise's first time modding, right? I don't think a mod should change anything midstream like that unless it's in danger of breaking the game (and even then is questionable because it should have been thought of before), but I could see a newer mod changing his mind at the last second. I dunno. What would be the scum motivation for Reckoner to claim his ability was changed?

Amished and Baltar, since we talking about this, what do you think of Hell's early vote on me?

Not a lot? What am I supposed to think? He certainly seemed apologetic about the vote and willing to remove it at the slightest call. This either means 1) He was tentative scum voting a townie and didn't want to see too forceful, or 2) he was tentative scum making a weak attempt to distance a buddy.

Also, you're general opposition to the Hell wagon even though the tell I pointed out was a "logical explanation" doesn't sit well in my book.

I guess my thinking on this is that if believing a player in the game forces you to conclude that the mod of the game is a bastard when it's a normal game, then it's more likely that the player is lying. AFAIC, that means lynch Reck.

Hmm, you make a decent point. I need to think about this for a bit and see if I think it's likely Kise would change something like this. Like I said above to Amished, my only hang up is figuring out WHY Reck would lie about it. Maybe in an attempt to make his story about not claiming earlier more believable? not sure.


Ok, now that I've done some more thinking and reading, my top scum reads at the moment are Reckoner, Anon, and chauchaudotcom. Lynch preference will probably take some more thought/hearing responses.

[Devestation]

So I have a question for Dev.

ISO 14

If he's guilty, I assume we will ISO him and check his relations with everyone?

ISO 15

Wait, whoa, whats with all the hammering.

Inbetween which Rai voted, Amished Unvoted.

The vibe I got from iso 14 was that you were pretty content with a Hell lynch at that point. But iso 15 obviously showed you were not, despite the fact that the vote count on Hell didn't increase.

My question being what led you to think there was a hammer? And why were you questioning the hammering when your iso 14 talks about what to do after he flips?

Because I read something about hammering in there. I questioned the hammer because I thought other people still wanted to gain information.

[Devestation]

No, I buy it. I honestly cannot see why xRECKONERx would waste his ability to get his scum buddy lynched.

[Devestation]

So I have a question for Dev.

ISO 14

If he's guilty, I assume we will ISO him and check his relations with everyone?

ISO 15

Wait, whoa, whats with all the hammering.

Inbetween which Rai voted, Amished Unvoted.

The vibe I got from iso 14 was that you were pretty content with a Hell lynch at that point. But iso 15 obviously showed you were not, despite the fact that the vote count on Hell didn't increase.

My question being what led you to think there was a hammer? And why were you questioning the hammering when your iso 14 talks about what to do after he flips?

Because I read something about hammering in there. I questioned the hammer because I thought other people still wanted to gain information.

[VP Baltar]

@xReckonerx- can you paraphrase what the problem with the wording was in your PM that made it unclear or implied you had a different ability?

[Devestation]

No, I buy it. I honestly cannot see why xRECKONERx would waste his ability to get his scum buddy lynched.

[Devestation]

Ack, double double post. My activity will be limited because one by one my browsers are refusing to co-operate with this site, which is a completely uncureable condition (I HAVE TRIED FRICKING EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!)

[Amished]

@VP: About Kise: Yeah, but switching it at the last second and halfway through the day are two very different things. Especially a relatively important day ability like double voting; it's something that you would really go over; both on your own and with a reviewer. I know I pretty much followed everything that Vi said when she reviewed my mini, and I went over WinCons, setting up the mentor ability (we came up with that before ViPod), pretty much everything.

To then have confusion over something that's going to be active from the start of the day is what I have the biggest problem with. I know I switched daytalking like 1 day into the game cause I didn't really think about N1; but that's due to a night ability after getting everything set up that I would know comes into play during the day (which was admittedly nothing).

Regarding your other point, you know I can get a damn good read on you, almost (now) to the point of reading your mind. After what we went over for MMan in NY91 and another game; and what I said and what you quoted for emphasis about the claim, I knew you'd follow through. I didn't have the time I normally have so I didn't push it cause I knew you would. Obviously I believed in it as I voted right away, and never backed down. If more people would've backed down then I would've probably spoken up more to drive it to a lynch.

I think xRx was saying that he thought he could PM another vote in private that wouldn't show up or something, instead of his vote counting twice like apparently it works now.

[VP Baltar]

@dev-it's not your browser, it's the site. Been shit for the past couple of days.

About Kise: Yeah, but switching it at the last second and halfway through the day are two very different things. Especially a relatively important day ability like double voting; it's something that you would really go over; both on your own and with a reviewer. I know I pretty much followed everything that Vi said when she reviewed my mini, and I went over WinCons, setting up the mentor ability (we came up with that before ViPod), pretty much everything.

Yeah, and I'm trying to think to myself what the rationale for such a move might be, but I'm really not coming to anything. Do you know for certain that Kise had the game reviewed though? It's not mandatory.

I think xRx was saying that he thought he could PM another vote in private that wouldn't show up or something, instead of his vote counting twice like apparently it works now.

Yeah, I understand what he is explaining as the differences, but he was making it sound like there was some word choices in his PM that confused either him, the mod or both when it came time to play the game. I think it'd be a bit fucked up to change a role mechanic midstream like that, especially when it essentially prevented a lynch from happening.

In fact,

Vote: xReckonerx

. Better have some good answers to my questions in the previous post or you're pretty much finished.

[xRECKONERx]

Which questions in particular, VPB? I don't know what I can answer without getting modkilled.

[VP Baltar]

Post 359. I highly doubt that any of those questions would get you modkilled.

[Raivann]

I do have a question though Raivann, why so sparse with your vote early on yesterday? After you unvoted starbuck it seemed like it took you awhile to find someone worth voting and I don't really know why.

I still had a question out there for Hell that I was awaiting answer to It was...

Pretty simple.

I think a third vote on someone is way more valuable than a random vote on anyone's else.

Do you agree/diosagree?

This one. When I first saw it, I thought you were just bandwagon voting just to vote, but now I understand you wanted to start real discussion/put pressure, so I'm fine with that, so I unvoted.

On reread I see Hell already answered question.
But what's the big difference in bandwagon voting and voting for pressure, aren't they kinda the same thing?

Eh, well, voting for pressure doesn't neccesarily have to be on a bandwagon, because for example, at the beginning of a day I could vote for someone whose actions at the end of the day yesterday seemed scummy, in order to try to make them explain their actions. Also, bandwagoning doesn't have to be for pressure, some people do it to move the game along or they are too lazy to scumhunt for themselves, so they follow the bandwagons.

Hope that made sense, thinking after playing a very close basketball game is hard

hmmm...
So why did you unvote again?

My 2 main suspects were Hell and cc.com, I was leaning Hell, then when I checked thread after weekend he had claimed and you know the rest.

[Kise]

Vote Count:

xRECKONERx: 3

(Amished, Raskol, VP Baltar)

Starbuck: 2

(xRECKONERx, Anon)

Devestation: 1

(Raivann)

Not Voting:

chauchaudotcom, Devestation, Starbuck...

I'm forgetting somebody

dramonic

Threshold:

6 votes.

Deadline:

3 weeks away, minus a day.

I owe it to everyone here to publicly mention that an error was made on my part day 1. I got clarification from a List Mod on how "something" should function. A player here agreed to and understood what happened. As this error was not viewed as gamebreaking, mini 903 is allowed to continue.

[Raskol]

Okay, np. As long as it's cleared up, it's fine.

My major reason for voting Reck is gone at this point, I think.

Unvote

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Anon

Still expecting those answers Reck.

[xRECKONERx]

Basically, the mod didn't understand that secret votes weren't a normal game function/mechanic. After consulting a higher-up mod, he PMed me to make the necessary changes.