Open 208 - Fire & Ice Mafia >Over!<

[DTMaster]

@Crazy

1. Wow. First of, that is a vote in the RVS. How can you quickly determine alignments based on one post. When you say:

a. The statement is a joke, the thing about fire scum is obviously does not reveal his alignment. Hence Mindgamer can be any alignment, even fire scum.

b. When you say Mindgamer's vote and comment on fire scum is a slip. You can argue Freudian slip. Mindgamer is fire scum, attempting to paint someone else as fire scum. Mindgamer is ice scum, attempting to find ice scum. Or Mindgamer is town, looking for reactions through a fake slip.

2.

There's nothing wrong with agreeing with somebody else's case, silly. Otherwise, we'd never lynch anybody. The problem is that pwnman never understood SK's argument about Mindgamer to begin with, and still followed with his vote.

You are pretty much arguing that pwnman is scummy for not

understanding a case

. Do your realize this? Pwnman followed through on a second vote on a wagon. Not understanding and being scummy are completely different things.

I also like how you totally ignore the piggyback argument, which yourself is guilty of in the outlined quotes I showed above.

TD;DR: Crazy jumps the gun to clear someone as fire scum and only fire scum can do that. He's guilty of piggybacking, just like pwnman. He calls out that pwnman wagons, but his main scummy trait is not understanding a case. This argument is extremely faulty and much more scummier then pwnman's actions.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ DTMaster: Wtf?

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 1.5

pwnman (4)

- XScorpion, Scott Brosius, SaintKerrigan, Crazy

ICEninja (2)

- Mindgamer, Sanhora

XScorpion (2)

- pwnman, DarkLightA

Sanhora (1)

- Deer

Crazy (1)

- DTMaster

Not Voting (2)

- ICEninja, fallen angel

With twelve players alive, seven votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Thursday March 18 at 16:50 UTC.

Sanhora has been prodded.

[Crazy]

1. Wow. First of, that is a vote in the RVS. How can you quickly determine alignments based on one post. When you say:

I was never in favor of the Mindgamer made an Ice scum-slip argument.

a. The statement is a joke, the thing about fire scum is obviously does not reveal his alignment. Hence Mindgamer can be any alignment, even fire scum.

True. I think it's a joke, but clearly SK and pwnman did not think so.

b. When you say Mindgamer's vote and comment on fire scum is a slip. You can argue Freudian slip. Mindgamer is fire scum, attempting to paint someone else as fire scum. Mindgamer is ice scum, attempting to find ice scum. Or Mindgamer is town, looking for reactions through a fake slip.

You really think pwnman thought of all that WIFOM nonsense?

You are pretty much arguing that pwnman is scummy for not understanding a case. Do your realize this? Pwnman followed through on a second vote on a wagon. Not understanding and being scummy are completely different things.

Not understanding a case is not scummy. Bandwagoning is sometimes scummy. Bandwagoning while not understanding the case is VERY SCUMMY!

I also like how you totally ignore the piggyback argument, which yourself is guilty of in the outlined quotes I showed above.

I believe I've said before that the "piggybacking" isn't scummy in isolation; it's only scummy when you combine it with the fact that PWNMAN DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE CASE!

TD;DR: Crazy jumps the gun to clear someone as fire scum and only fire scum can do that. He's guilty of piggybacking, just like pwnman. He calls out that pwnman wagons, but his main scummy trait is not understanding a case. This argument is extremely faulty and much more scummier then pwnman's actions.

With this, you're guilty of pegging me as fire scum when earlier you said you can't deduce different types of scum on Day 1. Though I don't care, because I don't believe you're scum; because I don't think you are pwnman's partner (I think DarkLight is, for the XScorpion vote), and I can't see scum that's not pwnman's partner going through the crap you're going through.

[ICEninja]

@IceNinja
Doesn't want to analyze my post. I'm starting to dislike him even more now because he chose to ignore me, given that he asked for my thoughts. Looks like scum coasting.

What makes you think I ignored you? I read what you said, and have mixed opinions. I don't have a solid stance yet on this whole mess, so I didn't feel it was worth much comment. If you feel that it's scummy to not respond to every player's opinion, I'll tell you what I think of what you said.

You made a somewhat valid argument about Crazy and Kerrigan, but you really are quite apparent in your not understanding the case against pwnman. I don't feel great about pwnman, but at least I understand their point that

had

Mindgamer scum slipped, he is ice mafia, and not fire mafia. I don't think that random joking vote was a scum slip, and therefore don't agree that this post indicates him being either town or scum. As a result, I think pwnman is scummy for taking a joke seriously and for failing to adequately respond to his reasoning. Kerrigan, as I already pointed out several pages ago, made the same argument and I didn't like it any more now than I did then.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm actually finding you somewhat suspicious for how intensely you are pushing against Crazy considering how your case is moderate at best. Not voteworthy, but noteworthy.

However, I feel extremely confident that there is at least one mafia group in the 4 of pwnman, Crazy, Kerrigan, and DT. People are pushing so hard, and I don't think anyone in this game could possibly know who is on scum except for their one scum buddy, and I really don't expect to see any busing on day 1. There's really no reason for anyone to be pushing for a lynch on page 4 without a very seriously damning piece of evidence. There is some hypocrisy and odd arguments flying around, but I'm going to be intensely suspicious of any bandwagon bigger than the 4 votes that fell on pwnman until there is some more substantial evidence.

I don't like the bandwagon against pwnman, but as I already said earlier I don't feel very good about pwnman either so for the time being I'm not going to call the wagon scummy.

[pwnman]

@Crazy: How is two votes a bandwagon?

[DTMaster]

@SK
What wtf? SK is just as useful as pwnman right now. Like seriously, have issues? Point them out? SK is too focused on tunneling on pwnman to actually scum hunt. It's very likely SK is scum.

@Crazy

I was never in favor of the Mindgamer made an Ice scum-slip argument.

]

You are lying through your teeth

These were the options:

A. Mindgamer is town, and the post was a joke.
B. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a joke.
C. Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a joke.
D. Mindgamer is Ice Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip.

Option E - "Mindgamer is Fire Mafia, and the post was a scum-slip" does not exist.

I find option D farfetched in itself; but the fact that pwnman agreed that Mindgamer made a scum-slip, and then said that Mindgamer was either Fire Mafia or Ice Mafia showed that pwnman had no idea what he was talking about, and was just piggybacking off of SK's argument while understanding nothing. That's very scummy.

@DTM and pwnman - Please explain how Mindgamer's first post could possibly be a slip from a Fire Mafia!

DTM, understanding that Mindgamer's first post COULD NOT BE a Fire Mafia slip (rather, the only possibilities are a joke or an Ice Mafia slip.) is critical to understanding the case on pwnman.

You've expressed preference that mindgamer was not fire scum, but you didn't shy away from the fact that you can interpret mindgamer as ice scum.

True. I think it's a joke, but clearly SK and pwnman did not think so.

Ding ding ding! Hey what did you say again? SK was specific about Mindgamer being ice scum. Why haven't you picked up on this? Here let me ask you this:

why is SK so focused on finding ice scum in Mindgamer?

How is this proof of townish alignment on SK

You really think pwnman thought of all that WIFOM nonsense?

Am I asking about pwnman? No. My question was directed to you. You certainly thought of this wifom. Why did you just answer my question with a question of your own.

Also pwnman didn't think up the wifom list, you did. Are we seriously going to argue that: because pwnman didn't think of the wifom possibilities, he must be scum because he didn't think through all of said possibilities. That's very absurd, you do know that. You aren't Mindgamer, and if mindgamer is scum the only way you can narrow down that list right now is being his partner.

I like the rehashed arguments, it never gets stale.

@ Half the Town
You

are not posting. Why?

Also half the town fails at taking stances. If anything these people should be wagoned right now:

I never said the people who are on the same wagon as me are town either. I don't mind lynching a member of one of the mafia groups with the help of the other, and it's quite possible that you and I are both right: StK and Crazy are part of one mafia, and Pwnman is in the other. The fact that Pwnman did it first though, and followed up with an OMGUS vote to boot, means I'd like him gone first, although the order doesn't REALLY matter.

For not following up on pwnman/Sk/Crazy. Just because you think you caught 1 scum, doesn't mean you stop scum hunting your secondaries. If pwnman flips town, you are literally screwed since you have nothing to go off. I dislike how you say others can be scum on said wagon but you don't actually participate in said scum hunting.

Not understanding a case is not scummy. Bandwagoning is sometimes scummy. Bandwagoning while not understanding the case is VERY SCUMMY!

Consider the circumstances: RVS stage, pwnman put the second vote on a guy. He was L-5 from lynch, meaning there were 5 people there to lynch. Now reread pwnman's posts:

Pwn's vote is now hiding in all these posts and nobody took the opportunity to ask for his reason. Pwn, can you state it?

My reasons was for Mindgamer's first post.

Vote ICE

Obvouisly Fire Mafia

Well, the date next to my name says August 2009 so I'll go with that.
pwnman's argument sucks.
unvote
Vote:pwnman

My arguement aswell as SK's is this

Pwn's vote is now hiding in all these posts and nobody took the opportunity to ask for his reason. Pwn, can you state it?

My reasons was for Mindgamer's first post.

Vote ICE

Obvouisly Fire Mafia

You just saying my arguement "sucks" makes an even worse arguement against me.

unvote

vote XScorpion

for the OMGUS vote

[/quote]

Guy agreeing with SK, wagoning to gain info. Ok I get it then.

Yeah, never consider the fact that I thought it was a scum slip up too.

It's a bad wagon I'm town. Thank you ladies and gentlemen of the jury

This reads as a guy getting confused. Now seriously you deserve a good lynchin if you repeat the whole: He did not understand argument to me again.

You just said understanding wasn't scummy. When I reread the above, I read tons of confusion, and lots of anti-town newbie behaviour. However, Pwnman had a sense of a reason to vote, which he quoted SK's reasoning. This got pressed, and pwnman admits: He didn't see XY possibility. This reasoning means, his vote wasn't valid and the case wasn't that strong. The OMGUS, yes scummy. The confusion? Not so much.

This above is not a sign of scumminess. You aren't even pointing out the full details on the pwnman case in this.

his, you're guilty of pegging me as fire scum when earlier you said you can't deduce different types of scum on Day 1. Razz Though I don't care, because I don't believe you're scum; because I don't think you are pwnman's partner (I think DarkLight is, for the XScorpion vote), and I can't see scum that's not pwnman's partner going through the crap you're going through.

No, the diffrence is: You said someone was cleared of a faction based on their post. I say, you are probably fire scum based on how SK focuses on ice scum and you joined in on the ice scum debate, outlined above.

If I'm wrong about your alignment, then I'm wrong, how ever, you are specifically ignoring the fact that there are people looking for specific scum in this game. Your vote with SK and your analysis on Mindgamer, outlined above, makes you look like you are specifically ice-scum hunting.



@Deer/Mindgamer/Darklight
You are taking a stance against the pwnman wagon,

but you aren't doing anything else. Why the hell aren't you scum hunting right now?

FYI: If anything, the above are passive scum looking for town cred. If I was a vig I would shoot one of them right now. Specifcally I would like to shoot deer because of this post:

The thing is, I think it's stupid to even suggest that mindgamer is fire/ice mafia based on a blatantly obvious joke. I find SK pretty scummy for insinuating that in the first place, along with the piggybacking thing DT and I (kind of) brought up.

Because there is no vote and no follow up to the SK scum case. In fact, deer just leaves this case hanging around doing nothing.

If you three are town aligned, you are being too passive in this game where: scum can't cross kill each other.

Unvote

Vote SaintKerrigan

Crazy is actually doing something. SK isn't. SK is hanging in on this wagon while crazy does the work right now.

[XScorpion]

I'm feeling crazy.

unvote
Vote: SaintKerrigan

WOOOOOO

[DTMaster]

@Ice
No, you don't have to respond to everyone. However you specifically asked for my reads, and did not do a follow up on them. That in itself is avoiding the issue good sir.


1. The pwnman case is cut and dry. He wagoned on Mindgamer, citing the same reasons as SK. Then under-pressure omgused. He is also posting in an anti-town manner, and quite frankly is currently hiding behind my arguments since he isn't doing anything.

However I find it intresting that half the town, you included, demonstated that: Pwnman is scummy but the wagon is suspec. If pwnman isn't scummy, I don't see any scum hunting down outside of the pwnman mindset. It's quite odd:

Reminds me of spectators just commenting from the outside

[Deer]

vote: crazy

I don't like his answers. At all.

I believe I've said before that the "piggybacking" isn't scummy in isolation; it's only scummy when you combine it with the fact that PWNMAN DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE CASE!

Especially this - I think you're wrong here. Although pwnman didn't understand the case, your piggybacking was equally as bad in my eyes, considering how weak SK's original case was.

And sorry DT, SaintKerrigan didn't do enough to warrant my vote. He looked slightly scummy for the wagon business but I think Crazy looks worse.

[Scott Brosius]

However, I feel extremely confident that there is at least one mafia group in the 4 of pwnman, Crazy, Kerrigan, and DT. People are pushing so hard, and

I don't think anyone in this game could possibly know who is on scum except for their one scum buddy, and I really don't expect to see any busing on day 1. There's really no reason for anyone to be pushing for a lynch on page 4 without a very seriously damning piece of evidence.

There is some hypocrisy and odd arguments flying around, but I'm going to be intensely suspicious of any bandwagon bigger than the 4 votes that fell on pwnman until there is some more substantial evidence.

I don't like the bandwagon against pwnman, but as I already said earlier I don't feel very good about pwnman either so for the time being I'm not going to call the wagon scummy.

This is a game of incomplete information and it's page 4. Of course the evidence on someone is not going to be very strong. Honestly the wagon on pwnman was a pretty good avenue to get out of the RVS.

I also hate lists or as I previously mentioned the comment "SOMEONE IS SCUM ON THIS WAGON" Saying that, "I think one of these 4 people is scum!" is an incredibly useless statement. These are the kind of statements I see as someone trying to appear as if they are scumhunting and offering insight, but really aren't.

Unvote

[Crazy]

I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over again and people still don't get it! This is incredibly frustrating.

You are lying through your teeth

Post 15.

You've expressed preference that mindgamer was not fire scum, but you didn't shy away from the fact that you can interpret mindgamer as ice scum.

My read on Mindgamer is pretty neutral; he could be town or either scum. All I've said is, IF HE SLIPPED, THEN HE'S ICE SCUM. To me, that means nothing, because I don't think he slipped. That only has relevance to SK and pwnman.

Ding ding ding! Hey what did you say again? SK was specific about Mindgamer being ice scum. Why haven't you picked up on this? Here let me ask you this: why is SK so focused on finding ice scum in Mindgamer? How is this proof of townish alignment on SK

It's not; when have I said I thought SK was certain town? PWnman is just far scummier in my eyes, since he used the same case as SK, except he didn't even understand it!

Also pwnman didn't think up the wifom list, you did. Are we seriously going to argue that: because pwnman didn't think of the wifom possibilities, he must be scum because he didn't think through all of said possibilities. That's very absurd, you do know that. You aren't Mindgamer, and if mindgamer is scum the only way you can narrow down that list right now is being his partner.

*blink*

What I'm trying to get you to see is that

Pwnman didn't understand the SK's case yet still voted for Mindgamer.

Can you possibly deny that?

You just said understanding wasn't scummy. When I reread the above, I read tons of confusion, and lots of anti-town newbie behaviour. However, Pwnman had a sense of a reason to vote, which he quoted SK's reasoning. This got pressed, and pwnman admits: He didn't see XY possibility. This reasoning means, his vote wasn't valid and the case wasn't that strong. The OMGUS, yes scummy. The confusion? Not so much.

Why the heck would he vote if he was confused about what SK meant? Wouldn't the logical thing be to question SK, or at the very least not AUTOMATICALLY AGREE WITH HER?

Hey, maybe SK and pwnman are partners; that would make sense.

Especially this - I think you're wrong here. Although pwnman didn't understand the case, your piggybacking was equally as bad in my eyes, considering how weak SK's original case was.

SK's case on pwnman isn't weak. SK's case on Mindgamer was far weaker. And pwnman agreed with SK about Mindgamer without even understanding it in the first place.

[Crazy]

Last quote is from Deer, typo.

Deer, I want to hear from you, not DTM, why the case on pwnman is so weak. You can say that pwnman, SK, and I all did what you'd call "piggybacking." I have no big problem with piggybacking itself, but apparently you do, so I want to ask you why SK and I piggybacking on pwnman's wagon is any worse than pwnman piggybacking on Mindgamer's wagon.

DTM, it seems like you actually think pwnman would be scum if he wasn't a newbie, so you're just giving him a free pass, right? I mean, like nothing he ever could do would ever be scummy, because he's just a newb and doesn't know anything, right?

[SaintKerrigan]

What is with all this Crazy hate? What he's been saying makes perfect sense to me, and I strongly disagree with the things DTMaster has been saying about him. That's why I give you the "Wtf," DT.

I agree that my case on Mindgamer was weak. It was an attempt to make something happen to jolt out the RVS (although at the time I agreed with my reasoning). When Pwnman voted Mindgamer as well, he attributed his reasoning to be the same as mine. Since I concluded that Mindgamer was Ice Mafia specifically and Pwnman gave his conclusion that Mindgamer could be of either faction, it showed that he actually wasn't agreeing with my argument, he was just piling a vote on Mindgamer and using my reasoning as the excuse. That's scummy. DT, I am having a hard time fathoming how you can not see this.

XScorp, care to give a reason with that vote, or do you prefer reckless abandon?

FoS: All the lurkers in this game

(like, half the town).

[DarkLightA]

Wtf was that about Xscorpion?

---

DTmaster: SK is pressuring pwnman, sure. I think he's wrong. Anyway, your vote seems like total BS.

All this "piggybacking", find quotes supporting it directly. As far as I see, it's as weak as the pwnman deal.

vote: DTMaster

[Mindgamer]

Eh... yeah... I don't really see much to do, sorry. :/

My joke could be interpreted as a scumslip. I don't like how Crazy refuses to understand that.

Unvote. Vote: Crazy

Bandwagon go!

/goes back to lurking

[SaintKerrigan]

Eh... yeah... I don't really see much to do, sorry. :/

My joke could be interpreted as a scumslip. I don't like how Crazy refuses to understand that.

Unvote. Vote: Crazy

Bandwagon go!

/goes back to lurking

This. Is. Awful.

Unvote: Pwnman. Vote: Mindgamer.

How does Crazy not thinking Mindgamer's joke could be a scumslip make him scum?

[Crazy]

My joke could be interpreted as a scumslip. I don't like how Crazy refuses to understand that.

I don't think you've been reading fully.

Yes, your first post has a vague chance of being a slip from an Ice Mafia. Personally, I don't think it is, but I'm not going to come down hard on SK and pwnman for that. But there's no chance that it could be a slip from a Fire Mafia, as pwnman suggested. That's why I'm voting him.

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 1.6

SaintKerrigan (2)

- DTMaster, XScorpion

Crazy (2)

- Deer, Mindgamer

pwnman (1)

- Crazy

ICEninja (1)

- Sanhora

XScorpion (1)

- pwnman

DTMaster (1)

- DarkLightA

Mindgamer (1)

- SaintKerrigan

Not Voting (3)

- ICEninja, fallen angel, Scott Brosius

With twelve players alive, seven votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Thursday March 18 at 16:50 UTC.

fallen angel is being replaced.

[Sanhora]

Getting to the posts I've missed.

[ICEninja]

Alright this is absolutely ridiculous. DT you are nuts. You're pushing on Crazy, and everyone seems to think that Crazy finds Mindgamer as ice scum, when you even quoted the posts when Crazy says he doesn't think that Mindgamer's post was a scum slip, indeed saying that it was a joke.

Crazy's case against pwnman makes sense to me, and the fact that people like DT don't get it and push a case against him makes me feel like they're either not carefully reading the things Crazy is saying or is trying to push a lynch despite it.

DT is throwing all of his might in to a push against Crazy, and it looks awful. You are forcing him to repeat the same answers to your questions over and over again, despite the fact that his responses answer to a lot of your questions. Yet you keep bringing the points up. Crazy is

not

lying about feeling like Mindgamer's post was a joke, because he has said it SEVERAL times. You quoted him saying it in the post where you tried to show him lying. He is absolutely right, if Mindgamer is scum, he is probably ice scum. However I don't think anyone genuinely finds Mindgamer as scum right now except for Kerrigan.

I agree with Scott and DT for telling me to scum hunt a specific target instead of shooting in the dark. I'm calling DT out for an overzealous push against Crazy without understanding what Crazy is saying.

Vote DTMaster

[ICEninja]

Is there someone named "fallen angel" in this game? I don't see a single post from that person.

[DarkLightA]

Eh... yeah... I don't really see much to do, sorry. :/

My joke could be interpreted as a scumslip. I don't like how Crazy refuses to understand that.

Unvote. Vote: Crazy

Bandwagon go!

/goes back to lurking

This. Is. Awful.

Unvote: Pwnman. Vote: Mindgamer.

How does Crazy not thinking Mindgamer's joke could be a scumslip make him scum?

This is obviously a joke from Mindgamer's side.

FoS: SaintKerrigan

Try to avoid jumping on EVERY joke you see, will you?

----

Dry-fit, XScorpion, Darox, Yosarian; we need more contribution from your spots.

I think you're posting in the wrong game. ~Nik

[SaintKerrigan]

@ DarkLightA: Some parts of Mindgamer's post were a joke, but I don't think the accusation against Crazy was a joke. So I'm asking him how what he accused Crazy of makes him scum.

[pwnman]

Last quote is from Deer, typo.

Deer, I want to hear from you, not DTM, why the case on pwnman is so weak. You can say that pwnman, SK, and I all did what you'd call "piggybacking." I have no big problem with piggybacking itself, but apparently you do, so I want to ask you why SK and I piggybacking on pwnman's wagon is any worse than pwnman piggybacking on Mindgamer's wagon.

DTM, it seems like you actually think pwnman would be scum if he wasn't a newbie, so you're just giving him a free pass, right? I mean, like nothing he ever could do would ever be scummy, because he's just a newb and doesn't know anything, right?

Bullshit. If you have no problem with piggybacking then why are you trying to get me lynched by bandwagon for piggybacking?

unvote, vote Crazy

All this "piggybacking", find quotes supporting it directly. As far as I see, it's as weak as the pwnman deal.

vote: DTMaster

At least he has a reasonable arguement. You act like you are voting him because he didn't want to bandwagon me.[/b]