Open 202 - Friends JK 9 (Game Over)

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote dry-fit

i agree that this is not the correct reaction and as i said before, i am down with the dry wagon. confid is being replaced. i consider that slot our deadline lynch if need be. to scummy players flaking under pressure should not be ignored. in the meantime...

[Meji Fan]

Bio Hazard replaces ConfidAnon, welcome Bio Hazard!

[Bio Hazard]

My replacee doesn't make much sense the first few pages, but at the risk of sounding like OMGUS, I'm going to point out that the early nessarae miniwagon is BS there was probably scum on it: Sleepless Assassin or dry-fit.

side note: mafiascum needs a smiley that's suspiciously raising an eyebrow or something.

I just saw this and had to answer it.

Given that dude's got a history of looking scummy, I don't think he's the right lynch today. But his meta definitely sounds like someone who can be scum and try to brush his scummy behavior off as Lowell being Lowell.

This pinged on my scumdar because you completely contradict yourself. You don't want him to use meta defense, but you say he's not the right lynch for today, using meta defense.

I can't tell if wdjat is buttering me up for a lynch or to protect me from a lynch. Either way it's scummy.

Exactly.

SerRose is active lurking.

@ Semioldguy: Is your vote for Wdjat serious?

This also pinged on my scumdar. Why wouldn't it be?

Sounds like fun.

unvote. vote: SerRose

So, you derail a wdjat wagon to start a SerRose wagon. If wdjat flips scum, dry-fit is also likely scum.

I disagree with my replacee about Lowell. I think his L1 vote was an honest mistake.

dry-fit calls DJ down for trying to "direct" power roles, which is complete BS, because DJ has a good point.

People, please keep posts short, my eyes are rolling back in my head.
Could someone please

summarize

the case on sleepless assassin?

Overall, dry-fit and wdjat are my top two suspects.

Vote: dry-fit

[Dry-fit]

The cases don't interest you but you do nothing to prevent the lynch of something you don't believe in??

I never felt he was in such danger of a lynch to need a defense.

@ Semioldguy: Is your vote for Wdjat serious?

This also pinged on my scumdar. Why wouldn't it be?

What's scummy about this? I asked because the game was still kind of in the rvs. I did the exact same thing as town before here:viewtopic.php?p=1955038=72#1955038

Sounds like fun.

unvote. vote: SerRose

So, you derail a wdjat wagon to start a SerRose wagon. If wdjat flips scum, dry-fit is also likely scum.

Both of them had two votes on them when I voted for SerRose. So if I had voted for Wdjat, would that have been derailing the SerRose wagon?

dry-fit calls DJ down for trying to "direct" power roles, which is complete BS, because DJ has a good point.

Good. Could you explain what his point was to me, because I couldn't understand it and dj couldn't adequately explain it.

[Sleepless Assassin]

What is the case on Dry-Fit? I'm not seeing it...

[Bio Hazard]

Well, read my last post.

[Sleepless Assassin]

What I see is that he

A) asked for clarification on whether a vote was a serious vote or random vote.

So what?

B) Suspected SerRose over Wdjat.

If I were forced to choose, I'd go the same way.

C) Said directing power roles was bad.

I agree. Let the power roles do what they think is best.

None of those "points" are scummy. Just a summary of his play.

[Bio Hazard]

@ Semioldguy: Is your vote for Wdjat serious?

This also pinged on my scumdar. Why wouldn't it be?

What's scummy about this? I asked because the game was still kind of in the rvs. I did the exact same thing as town before here:viewtopic.php?p=1955038=72#1955038

There was nothing to suggest it was a joke.

Sounds like fun.

unvote. vote: SerRose

So, you derail a wdjat wagon to start a SerRose wagon. If wdjat flips scum, dry-fit is also likely scum.

Both of them had two votes on them when I voted for SerRose. So if I had voted for Wdjat, would that have been derailing the SerRose wagon?

No, because there's nothing else to suggest a connection between you and SerRose.

dry-fit calls DJ down for trying to "direct" power roles, which is complete BS, because DJ has a good point.

Good. Could you explain what his point was to me, because I couldn't understand it and dj couldn't adequately explain it.

His point is that anti-town with few posts are good town PR targets, which is true, and stating that obvious fact certainly isn't a scumtell. And of course the power role is going to do what they think is right, you're giving dj too much credit if you say he's trying to "direct" the night action.

And how do you defend your nessarae vote, SA and dry-fit?

[semioldguy]

Dry-fit's response is town.

The points brought up against him are crap.

[Bio Hazard]

OK, then give me a town motivation for being on a completely crap miniwagon on the second page.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Bio, I've given reasons for the nessa/confid vote many times. Read my posts.

Also, in response to 209, you are seriously calling BANDWAGONING on PAGE TWO as a point against Dry-Fit when Semi calls your case crap (It is)?

Want a bandwagoning case? Got one right here. A couple of Dry-Fit votes and you jump right on.

Guys, can we PLEASE lynch Bio now?

[semioldguy]

I disagree that he was on a completely crap mini-wagon. Perhaps you should explain why you think this mini-wagon was crap and also why being on it is crap. You merely stating that it is does not make it true.

[Bio Hazard]

I disagree that he was on a completely crap mini-wagon. Perhaps you should explain why you think this mini-wagon was crap and also why being on it is crap. You merely stating that it is does not make it true.

This coming from a person who makes a post like this:

Dry-fit's response is town.

The points brought up against him are crap.

The second page wagon was crap because incoherence isn't a scumtell. He was picking an easy target to jump on page 2, which IS a scumtell.

Bandwagoning in and of itself is not a scumtell, but doing it for a shady reason is.

Also, in response to 209, you are seriously calling BANDWAGONING on PAGE TWO as a point against Dry-Fit

Yes, I am.

[semioldguy]

You have no clear or stated substance to your "points" against him. Therefore they are crap.

Let's take a look:

(This is always so exciting for me when people walk into these things!!)

@ Semioldguy: Is your vote for Wdjat serious?

This also pinged on my scumdar. Why wouldn't it be?

This is a dumb question, because the question Dry-fit asks supposes that he was not able to find an answer on his own which is why he had to ask in the first place. If you thought my vote was clearly serious, instead of asking Dry-fit to point out where it could be serious you should be able to point out yourself where/how you interpret my vote to have been serious.

Oh, I see you slightly addressed this:

There was nothing to suggest it was a joke.

Oh goody!

You're right! I don't think there is anything to suggest it was a joke. But Dry-fits question wasn't whether the vote was a joke, his question asked if the vote was serious. (Yes, there is a difference as joke/serious are not the only two things a vote can be) What suggests that the vote was serious to you? And now, go look at all my votes previous to my vote on wdjat. Explain to me how you determine any of them to be either a joke or serious (or something else entirely).

Sounds like fun.

unvote. vote: SerRose

So, you derail a wdjat wagon to start a SerRose wagon. If wdjat flips scum, dry-fit is also likely scum.

There is no substance to this claim. How is Dry-fit derailing a wagon? How is he starting a wagon? Why am I not the one guilty of derailing/starting the wagons? (after all, not only did I move my vote off of wdjat onto SerRose first, but I called for Dry-fit's vote on SerRose as well) Your statement is just not very accurate.

dry-fit calls DJ down for trying to "direct" power roles, which is complete BS, because DJ has a good point.

Just because a good point is made does not mean it doesn't direct power roles. It most certainly does in this case. Any statement offering a suggestion that power role do something is pretty clearly direction.

For example. If I were to say "the tracker/watcher would be best suited to watch the claimed doctor" this could be argued as a good point. But to claim it isn't directing a power role is just dumb. I most certainly would be directing a power role with my statement.

Even if the point is good, making these suggestions can be scummy, because it attempts to divert an investigative night action away from oneself. It would be in scum's best interest to do this.

Both of them had two votes on them when I voted for SerRose. So if I had voted for Wdjat, would that have been derailing the SerRose wagon?

No, because there's nothing else to suggest a connection between you and SerRose.

Are you saying that the only way to derail a wagon is for there to be a connection from the derailing player to the derailed player? Wagons can't be derailed in any other way? So I guess it isn't possible for me to ever derail any wagon unless I connect myself to that player first. Shit.


Hmm... that covers all of your points. All of them suck. They either come with absolutely no explanation or have gaping holes.

If you want short posts, do something right the first time.

[Lowell]

Prod avoidance. Will read through when I get a chance.

[semioldguy]

He was picking an easy target to jump on page 2, which IS a scumtell.

Bandwagoning in and of itself is not a scumtell, but doing it for a shady reason is.

I could say essentially the same thing for your vote on Dry-fit. You came in and voted for the most recently popular wagon.

You reasoning is pretty shady, since I pointed out how much crap is consists of. If you intend on using this as a scumtell I ask that you please use it on yourself first.

Unvote; Vote: Bio Hazard

As already mentioned, you need to claim.

[Bio Hazard]

Well, I'm going to get lynched, because my roleclaim won't be convincing: vanilla townie.

If you want short posts, do something right the first time.

There's a difference between calling me scum and being insulting. This falls into the latter.

Since I expect to get the hammer vote in the near future, here's who you should look at tomorrow: dry-fit, sleepless assassin, and wdjat.

[semioldguy]

There's a difference between calling me scum and being insulting. This falls into the latter.

You're right, I apologize for that.

[Regfan]

Dry-fit's response is town.

The points brought up against him are crap.

Personally, I find this to be a load of shit, Dry has yet to post anything I have found particullary pro-town, he has been actively lurking and hasn't actually put ANY points forward I plan to do an iso on him in a second and you will see that. Is defence to the thought of votes on him seems as if he's trying to push them away without addressing them.

[Regfan]

Post 25 - He confirms and RVS"s Wdjat as well as pointing out who he has played with is an attempted humorous manner.

Post 42 - He agrees with Sleepless with just a simple +1 and changes his vote to ness.

Post 59 - Says we should 'examine Lowell's play to decide whether he should be lynched' and asks Semi his thoughts on Ness.
Post 78 - Asks Confid his thoughts on the game and asks Semi if a vote is serious
Post 80 - Changes vote to Serrose with the commet 'Sounds like fun'
Post 91 - Asks Ser a useless question and also asks him if he plays to post more
Post 108 - Says only thing scummy about Serrose is his Omgus, this seems like an attempt to push the day onto Serrose and asks semi AGAIN his thoughts on serrose
Post 120 - Says serrose isn't a complete noob, which was wrong. Trys to shift focus to DJ for 'directing power roles' when that wasn't what he was doing exacty.
Post 130 - Defends his accusation on SerRose being a complete noob. Questions the idea of a null tell
Post 145 - Asks Semi to elaborate on a future Dj lynch. Mentions this 'Just because you aren't able to read him, why does that make you think the rest of us can't?' however responds with no read on him.
Post 159 - Continues on about the null tell thought and still doesn't offer a read on anyone.
Post 169 - Suggests changing his vote to Dj but doesn't.
Post 187 - Questions Semi again on Dj's recent posts, mentions there isn't much to add.
Post 198 - Defends the FoS against him by saying 'I haven't done a lot of analysis this game because my top suspect is SerRose and he never really posted enough to do much analysis. The cases on CA and SA don't really interest me.' Since his biggest suspect was replaced he still has yet to do an anaylsis on me even though he said that was what he was waiting for.
Post 203 - Poorly defends himself and says he didn't need to defend any of the others because there was no risk of a lynch however there really was.

Overall, no sign of actively scumhunting, instead active lurking. He seems to be constantly questioning Semi in an atttempt to buddy up with him. Buddying on day 1 is a strong scum tell, because if you can trick one townie into believing you are town, you can keep them alive the whole game and win by their mistake.

[don_johnson]

Even if the point is good, making these suggestions can be scummy, because it attempts to divert an investigative night action away from oneself. It would be in scum's best interest to do this.

my post was made in response to what i percieved as a "bad" case. that not withstanding, directing power roles is only scummy if scum is directing them. suggesting that a particular player be investigated can actually help a newb powerrole or inexperienced player find scum. anyone pushing the idea that what i said was "scummy" is just looking for town points imo. we have no guarantee that the player i suggested be "targeted" is, in fact, town. dry-fit is twisting words and took my post completely out of its context. my statement wasn't made to "direct" power roles. sure you can interpret it that way, but when placed in the original context it is obvious that the intent is to point out a poor case, and not to actually direct anyone.

[semioldguy]

Dry-fit's response is town.

The points brought up against him are crap.

Personally, I find this to be a load of shit,

Cool. I love going through stuff like this with people. Let's have a lookee:

First I will ask if you agree with the points Bio Hazard is using for his vote. If so, you can answer the questions for him that I posed against his points. If you don't like his points, now is the time to speak up.

Let's move on.

Dry-fit

I've noticed he doesn't actually add much content to the game, he just questions people here and there, and that's about it. I believe he tried to push suspicion back onto Serrose unnecessarily and attacked Don for wanting to 'redirecting' power roles, when he just merely suggested it was better to check then lynch Serrose which is indeed correct.

From paste experiences (This game I was in, especially by LordChrono's play):

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13355

The mafia tend to be semi-active and ask a lot of questions to appear 'townie' but don't actually analysis or take a stance on anything until forced to or called out.

Overall read on Dry-fit - Medium read as a Mafia.

Nice I like that you take a stance. You even give reasons along with your stance which is awesome (no sarcasm, this is awesome). This is a valid reason and motive analysis.

However, some people just play that way. Even as town. I know I've made the mistake before in my suspicions. When a player is asking a lot of questions, a majority of the answers he gets are not going to be scummy. That's just how it is. And wasting further time and effort on answers that aren't scummy is not helpful for the town; it's distracting. I think it's a town-tell to be asking lots of questions but not doing anything with them. Scum would make a move sooner rather than later or ask questions with spring traps in them.

The few responses he does make to answers to his questions are things that he clearly has a further problem with and needs more probing.

I don't know what exactly about my post that you think is a load of shit, so I am going to just guess that both parts are and explain the rest of it too about how I see Dry-fit's answers as those coming from a town player.

The cases don't interest you but you do nothing to prevent the lynch of something you don't believe in??

I never felt he was in such danger of a lynch to need a defense.

To me this is an obvious town reasoning. I have used this reasoning many times myself as town and it fits his ask questions but not follow up playstyle. I similarly feel that neither of those players were in danger of being lynched at the time. I stated early on my thoughts about ConfidAnon's spot, but you didn't see me defending against that lynch either. (Bio Hazard is just terribly opportunistic with little to no good reason for doing so in my mind and caused me to change my read)

His other answers to BioHazard have already been rebuked, but they both provide accurate accounts of the game state at the time and point to holes in the point brought up against him.

[semioldguy]

my post was made in response to what i percieved as a "bad" case. that not withstanding, directing power roles is only scummy if scum is directing them.

This is true. But there is no assurance that you aren't scum, so it still could possibly be scummy.

Personally I don't find your suggestion scummy coming from you. But it most clearly is directing a power role as you seem to agree with. My post was merely clearing up that misrepresentation about it being directing.

suggesting that a particular player be investigated can actually help a newb powerrole or inexperienced player find scum. anyone pushing the idea that what i said was "scummy" is just looking for town points imo. we have no guarantee that the player i suggested be "targeted" is, in fact, town. dry-fit is twisting words and took my post completely out of its context. my statement wasn't made to "direct" power roles. sure you can interpret it that way, but when placed in the original context it is obvious that the intent is to point out a poor case, and not to actually direct anyone.

I agree and disagree with this to an extent. I don't think Dry-fit took it out of context intentionally or was specifically looking for town-cred, I myself have seen your posts get taken out of context somewhat often it seems, so I don't think it is inexcusable for town to respond in that way here.

[don_johnson]

unvote

off to bed. i kind of see what you are saying, and redoing iso on dryu i kind of get where he was coming from as well. my biggest issue with him was iso 9. i felt like that is where he really took my comments and tried to give them a life of their own. i need to reread biohazard and your response. i am fairly comfortable with you at this point. i'll get back to this tomorrow.

[Meji Fan]

Sleepless Assassin - Wdjat
RegFan - Dry-fit, semioldguy
Bio Hazard - Lowell, Sleepless Assassin, TDC, semioldguy
Dry-Fit - RegFan, Bio Hazard

Not voting - don_johnson