Open 202 - Friends JK 9 (Game Over)

[Bio Hazard]

@ Semioldguy: Is your vote for Wdjat serious?

This also pinged on my scumdar. Why wouldn't it be?

This is a dumb question, because the question Dry-fit asks supposes that he was not able to find an answer on his own which is why he had to ask in the first place. If you thought my vote was clearly serious, instead of asking Dry-fit to point out where it could be serious you should be able to point out yourself where/how you interpret my vote to have been serious.

Oh, I see you slightly addressed this:

There was nothing to suggest it was a joke.

Oh goody!

You're right! I don't think there is anything to suggest it was a joke. But Dry-fits question wasn't whether the vote was a joke, his question asked if the vote was serious. (Yes, there is a difference as joke/serious are not the only two things a vote can be) What suggests that the vote was serious to you? And now, go look at all my votes previous to my vote on wdjat. Explain to me how you determine any of them to be either a joke or serious (or something else entirely).

You really want me to go back and tell you why I think your vote is serious? What do you think was dry-fit's point in asking the question?

Sounds like fun.

unvote. vote: SerRose

So, you derail a wdjat wagon to start a SerRose wagon. If wdjat flips scum, dry-fit is also likely scum.

There is no substance to this claim. How is Dry-fit derailing a wagon? How is he starting a wagon? Why am I not the one guilty of derailing/starting the wagons? (after all, not only did I move my vote off of wdjat onto SerRose first, but I called for Dry-fit's vote on SerRose as well) Your statement is just not very accurate.

The difference between you and dry-fit is that dry-fit was never on the wdjat "wagon" to begin with.

dry-fit calls DJ down for trying to "direct" power roles, which is complete BS, because DJ has a good point.

Just because a good point is made does not mean it doesn't direct power roles. It most certainly does in this case. Any statement offering a suggestion that power role do something is pretty clearly direction.

For example. If I were to say "the tracker/watcher would be best suited to watch the claimed doctor" this could be argued as a good point. But to claim it isn't directing a power role is just dumb. I most certainly would be directing a power role with my statement.

Even if the point is good, making these suggestions can be scummy, because it attempts to divert an investigative night action away from oneself. It would be in scum's best interest to do this.

Well, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Both of them had two votes on them when I voted for SerRose. So if I had voted for Wdjat, would that have been derailing the SerRose wagon?

No, because there's nothing else to suggest a connection between you and SerRose.

Are you saying that the only way to derail a wagon is for there to be a connection from the derailing player to the derailed player?

Yes

. Wagons can't be derailed in any other way? So I guess it isn't possible for me to ever derail any wagon unless I connect myself to that player first.

What does this mean?

Shit.

[Wdjat]

Firstly, @Bio Hazard: is a non-plussed face. There is no suspicion there.


But we're here to talk about suspicions. Bio Hazard's case against Dry-fit is pretty lame, but I think this is more telling about Bio Hazard than it is about dry-fit. That last "agree to disagree" comment was pretty much the worst.

I'm not too happy with the was semioldguy is jumping to Dry-fit's defense either. Either he's falling prey to some buddying or he's doing some buddying of his own. I suspect it's the former.

Given Bio Hazard's latest posts, I'll agree to him as the best lynch right now. I want Lowell to get his opinions in thread before the hammer falls, though.

[Bio Hazard]

Bump wdjat to the top of my suspect list.

[Bio Hazard]

But we're here to talk about suspicions. Bio Hazard's case against Dry-fit is pretty lame, but I think this is more telling about Bio Hazard than it is about dry-fit. That last "agree to disagree" comment was pretty much the worst.

I'm just saying we disagree about that "tell" and a huge theory debate probably isn't going to help anyone here.

I'm not too happy with the was semioldguy is jumping to Dry-fit's defense either. Either he's falling prey to some buddying or he's doing some buddying of his own. I suspect it's the former.

Why's that?

Given Bio Hazard's latest posts, I'll agree to him as the best lynch right now. I want Lowell to get his opinions in thread before the hammer falls, though.

I didn't see you express much suspicion of my replacee. A couple posts is enough for a lynch for you?

[semioldguy]

You really want me to go back and tell you why I think your vote is serious? What do you think was dry-fit's point in asking the question?

I think Dry-fit's point in asking the question was because he couldn't discern if it was a serious vote or not. (duh!)

If you disagree with that assessment, then you should have no difficulty in detailing why you came to the conclusion that my vote was obviously serious.

So yes. I would like you to go back and tell me why.

The difference between you and dry-fit is that dry-fit was never on the wdjat "wagon" to begin with.

So now I can't derail wagons that I am on? I most certainly can!

Unvote; Vote Regfan

This is a much better vote everyone! Let's get it moved over!!

Choo! Choo!!!

Oh wait... are we connected yet do you think? Because if we aren't apparently my attempt to derail your wagon won't work.

Are you saying that the only way to derail a wagon is for there to be a connection from the derailing player to the derailed player?

Yes

. Wagons can't be derailed in any other way? So I guess it isn't possible for me to ever derail any wagon unless I connect myself to that player first.

What does this mean?

Shit.

I disagree. I have seen many a wagon-derailment without a prior existing connection between the two players. My eyes don't believe your mouth.

Also @Bio Hazard
One post is all it takes for me if the post is particularly scummy. Scum only need to screw up once to get caught.

[semioldguy]

Either he's falling prey to some buddying or he's doing some buddying of his own. I suspect it's the former.

I have considered this.

Also,

Unvote; Vote: Bio Hazard

[TDC]

I'm back and fine with my vote.

Bio Hazard: Did I derail the SerRose wagon? If no, what's different to dry_fit and the wdjat wagon? If yes, what's worse about dry_fit?

[don_johnson]

semi, did you notice this?

I'm not too happy with the was semioldguy is jumping to Dry-fit's defense either. Either he's falling prey to some buddying or he's doing some buddying of his own. I suspect it's the former.

if wdjat is implying that dry-fit is "buddying", then that implies that he is scum. so, in wdjat's opinion, the scum team is bio/dry. what do you make of that, and do you agree/disagree with the comment?

[Lowell]

Bio hazard has been okay, but I'm not overwhelmed. He shows a bit more tunnelling on wjat than I'd like, which reads more like defensiveness than scum-hunting. Given that his predecessors were horrible, I'm fine stringing him up. Where are we, vote-wise?

[don_johnson]

pretty sure bio is at L-1 and has already claimed. no need to lynch just yet.

[semioldguy]

semi, did you notice this?

I'm not too happy with the was semioldguy is jumping to Dry-fit's defense either. Either he's falling prey to some buddying or he's doing some buddying of his own. I suspect it's the former.

if wdjat is implying that dry-fit is "buddying", then that implies that he is scum. so, in wdjat's opinion, the scum team is bio/dry. what do you make of that, and do you agree/disagree with the comment?

Clearly I did notice it. I quoted and commented on it.

Buddying is not exclusive to scum, but possible implications are also noted.

[don_johnson]

Clearly I did notice it. I quoted and commented on it.

Buddying is not exclusive to scum, but possible implications are also noted.

sorry, a bit rhetorical. i realize you commented on it, but i want to know what you think of wdjat. the comment doesn't strike you at all as odd? wdjat is clearly implying scumpartners imo. clearly going for one and not the other. i want your take.

[semioldguy]

I don't consider buddies until I've got a flip to look at.

Prior to that it is too theoretical.

wdjat doesn't look town to me, there are several players who I would think are town before him.

[don_johnson]

i guess what's odd to me is that wdjat is implying that dry-fit might be scum with bio,

and

that dry-fit might be scum with you(though he clearly favors scum with bio). it seems like the speculation of a player who thinks dry-fit is scum, and yet votes elsewhere(popular bandwagon). the post implies(imo) that wdjat has a stronger scum read on dry than on bio(though he obviously attempts to say different.) my contention here would be that this would be an awfully convenient distancing ploy for a dry-fit/wdjat scum team. i know i know, scum teams on day 1 is just speculation, but the behavior seems odd as well coming from a townie. if bio flips town, wdjat clears himself of responsibility for pursuing dry(arguably his stronger scum read) based on his pairing. honestly it makes me

not

want to lynch bio. i'll have to think on this a bit more...

[semioldguy]

I'd actually much rather lynch Regfan, or even wdjat if Regfan isn't attainable, over Bio Hazard. I still have a strong feeling of nessearae as newb-town. If the support is there for a switch I am for it.

(guess the two of us are linked now, eh Bio Hazard?)

Unvote; Vote: Regfan

[Meji Fan]

Sleepless Assassin - Wdjat
RegFan - Dry-fit, semioldguy
Bio Hazard - Lowell, Sleepless Assassin, TDC
Dry-Fit - RegFan, Bio Hazard

Not voting - don_johnson

Remember, deadline is in the near future, currently Bio-Hazard would be the deadline winner

[Regfan]

First I will ask if you agree with the points Bio Hazard is using for his vote. If so, you can answer the questions for him that I posed against his points. If you don't like his points, now is the time to speak up.

To be frank, I'm unsure about what his points are actually, I see him mentioning scum tells that Dry has done, but no case or argument together.

However, some people just play that way. Even as town. I know I've made the mistake before in my suspicions. When a player is asking a lot of questions, a majority of the answers he gets are not going to be scummy. That's just how it is. And wasting further time and effort on answers that aren't scummy is not helpful for the town; it's distracting. I think it's a town-tell to be asking lots of questions but not doing anything with them. Scum would make a move sooner rather than later or ask questions with spring traps in them.

This is where I disagree with you, sure some people play that way, but asking lots and lots of questions and only questions is done in order not to seem 'lurky' and to seem as if you're actively participating, none of Dry's questions really helped us gain or gather and significant information and thus I believe he's just planning on asking the questions to seem 'townie' instead of actually helping.

To me this is an obvious town reasoning. I have used this reasoning many times myself as town and it fits his ask questions but not follow up playstyle. I similarly feel that neither of those players were in danger of being lynched at the time.

Again, you fail to spot the difference between yourself and him, you've' always mentioned your comments on the players being voted and bandwagoned whereas Dry never mentioned his and only when really attacked did he say he didn't suspect both. If he never truly suspected both people being voted, why did he never bring anything up earlier?

I'm not too happy with the was semioldguy is jumping to Dry-fit's defense either. Either he's falling prey to some buddying or he's doing some buddying of his own. I suspect it's the former.

In my re-read, I seem to notice, everyone only directs there questions about the game to semi, especially Dry, I'm quite positive buddying is going on here.

So now I can't derail wagons that I am on? I most certainly can!

Unvote; Vote Regfan

This is a much better vote everyone! Let's get it moved over!!

Choo! Choo!!!

We are far beyond the RVS segment of the game, and placing your vote on me with no reasons whatsoever is clearly you attempting to reaction test me. I'd much rather you explain to me why you have this 'townie' read on Dry, because its shocking me.

@TDC, Whats your thoughts on Dry-Fit?

Given that his predecessors were horrible, I'm fine stringing him up. Where are we, vote-wise?

And your thoughts on any of the other players? You mentioned his tunneling and in your post you've done the exact same thing.

I'd actually much rather lynch Regfan, or even wdjat if Regfan isn't attainable, over Bio Hazard. I still have a strong feeling of nessearae as newb-town. If the support is there for a switch I am for it.

(guess the two of us are linked now, eh Bio Hazard?)

Unvote; Vote: Regfan

What do ya know, you've done it again. Only this time, you've made a comment about how you would either like to lynch me or Wdjat, and didn't state for any reason why.

[semioldguy]

The first time was to get a rise out of Bio Hazard (because he is flat out wrong about wagons and wagon-changing, which unfortunately being wrong does not indicate being scum).

The second one was all for you though. I have done exactly (almost to the "t") what you are doing right now when I replaced in as scum before in Newbie 774. I picked on the guy asking questions for the same reasons you are.

[Regfan]

The second one was all for you though. I have done exactly (almost to the "t") what you are doing right now when I replaced in as scum before in Newbie 774. I picked on the guy asking questions for the same reasons you are.

However, some people just play that way. Even as town. I know I've made the mistake before in my suspicions. When a player is asking a lot of questions, a majority of the answers he gets are not going to be scummy. That's just how it is.

The second quote shows that you understand that everyone plays differently and that is how some people play, so to vote me because I'm playing like you would as mafia is just getting stupid.

I believe I've provided a link to a game I've already played, go read it. I FoS the people just sitting around on the sidelines questioning the game.

[semioldguy]

I suggest that some people play differently, not everyone (well, everyone probably does to a small degree at least). But there is an abundance of overlap to everyone's play as well.

Meta isn't so great for scum hunting. Even less so when a player suggests it for himself. It implies that a person is aware of his or her own meta, which is then usually most useful for digging up null tells on that person.

If picking upon people sitting on the sidelines in the manner you are doing in this game is a null-tell for you (which is debatable), it isn't even the only thing I find scummy about you or your player slot.

Are you really that worried about my one vote when practically no one has even been suspicious of you player slot all game aside from myself and Dry-fit?

[Regfan]

Meta isn't so great for scum hunting. Even less so when a player suggests it for himself. It implies that a person is aware of his or her own meta, which is then usually most useful for digging up null tells on that person. [/quote[

I'd have to disagree with this to a degree, I find knowing another players meta, makes it a lot easier to read them and essentially scum hunt. If I had more games to link to you I would, however that is the only finished game I have played here.

Are you really that worried about my one vote when practically no one has even been suspicious of you player slot all game aside from myself and Dry-fit?

Again, you seem to misunderstood, my worry is not about your vote at all, I'm trying to get you to tell me why you think Dry is town, to help me understand where you are coming from, and you've constantly ignored that and instead starting pushing towards me.

[semioldguy]

Town players don't have to jump to the defense of every, or any, wagon they disagree with. Many times doing so creates a distraction and doesn't even fulfill the purpose when you disagree with a wagon.

I already went over that with you in Post 221, providing my reasons and line of thought where my town read comes from. You disagree with my assessment. I don't know what more you expect.

[Dry-fit]

And how do you defend your nessarae vote, SA and dry-fit?

I agreed with SA's reasoning and wanted to apply pressure. I know it wasn't a great case or anything, but I believe that a vote for something only the slightest bit scummy is better than a random vote.

Again, you fail to spot the difference between yourself and him, you've' always mentioned your comments on the players being voted and bandwagoned whereas Dry never mentioned his and only when really attacked did he say he didn't suspect both. If he never truly suspected both people being voted, why did he never bring anything up earlier?

Again, I never felt those players were in serious danger of being lynched. I could also see where the cases on them were coming from, so it's not like I thought their wagons were scummy. I just didn't really have much to say about them.

Bio's bad and seemingly opportunistic case on me is beginning to make him one of my top suspects.

[TDC]

@TDC, Whats your thoughts on Dry-Fit?

Case on him is crap and I'm not keen on lynching him.

--

semioldguy: How much of your vote is for Regfan and how much is for SerRose? Is his push for dry-fit worse than BH's or is that just SerRose having been scummier than CA for you? The gap seems to be large enough to accommodate wdjat in between and I'm not really seeing where that comes from?
At least BH's suspicion of dry_fit sort of makes sense.

[TDC]

EBWOP: er, should be Regfan in the last sentence.