Mini 894: Vortex (Game, Set, Match)

[RayFrost]

Mod, please prod the following players:

GLaDOS

Tarhalindur

Sajin

Dragonofsummer

Also, you have boxman instead of GLaDOS in the most recent vote count.

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

I am back from V/LA.

@GLaDOS- Welcome to the game! Thanks for replacing in. Why do you want me to full claim? I would like you to articulate this beyond "because everyone else did". Also I would like to know how many mafia you think we are dealing with.

The very reason you should claim is because we have already agreed to mass-claim, and you are the only person who has not claimed. If you want further reasons, your claim: (i) prevents loss of information if you were to die without being fully revealed; (ii) allows us to better understand the most likely set-up and mechanics; and (iii) allows us to judge your credibility as a player when comparing your play in this game to your claimed role.

For your second question, I cannot answer confidently: from what has been revealed, having one mafiate remaining seems just as likely as having two mafiates remaining. This game has already had three non-town players (Serial Killer, Survivor, Mafia) and I would hope Mods would not insert more than 4 non-town players in a Mini Game. On top of these non-Town roles, malthusis was apparently a "Vengeance" role, which I assume means he had to kill a particular player (who might not have even been Scum, such that his role being fulfilled could further hurt the Town). However, whether there are two mafiates remaining largely depend on the strength of the Town and the Mod's modding preferences.

From what I know of the game thus far, I believe having one Mafiate remaining would be balanced. However, I am going to play as if there are two mafiates remaining.

Mod

: When you say malthusis was Town Vengeance, what do you mean?

~

As I explained to RayFrost overnight, I am suspicious of Tarhalindur and DragonsofSummer.

1.)

Konowa turned out to be a Survivor with Hider details conflicting with Tarhalindur. Although I do not believe Konowa's claim makes the most sense as a Hider, now that he is confirmed to have been telling the truth at partially about his role, I have to consider that he was telling the full truth. Keep in mind that if Konowa was insistent on lying, I fail to see why he would not simply have claimed to be Town.

Tarhalindur's claim, like Konowa's, initially did make sense. It only made some sense after Tarhalindur was forced to clarify when I poked holes in his claim.

Now, with the existence of malthusis' claim (which I believe to be true), it is questionable whether a syringe should in theory transfer to a Hider. Finally, I just realized that this claim has had three seperate killing roles -- malthusis' first syringe, the Mafia kill, and the Serial Killer kill. It seems rather ridiculous to include a Hider who would die hiding behind any of three possible players targeted to be killed, in addition to having that Hider die if they happened to Hide behind the wrong John or the people working with that John. A Town role of that nature should die practically any game it actually attempts to Hide.

2.)

DragonsofSummer has really done practically nothing in the game to help scum-hunting. He instead made a large number of inane posts. Also, as I pointed out to RayFrost overnight, there has been a post of his that concerns me:

As for the cobalt case, I want to see his response before deciding on how scummy it is because wagon hopping seems to be fairly normal behavior for him.

Basically, when Cobalt was under pressure on Day One, DragonsofSummer deferred judgment on Cobalt while also giving an explanation for Cobalt's behavior. When Cobalt defended himself from the case made against him (i.e. when DragonsofSummer had "seen his response"), DragonsofSummer still did not give an opinion on Cobalt.

[GLaDOS]

Tarhalindur's claim, like Konowa's, initially did [not] make sense. It only made some sense after Tarhalindur was forced to clarify when I poked holes in his claim.

Quote fixed with brackets -- the intent of my comment should have been clear in any case.

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

Malth being town kinda surprised me, since I really didn't like the lack of a konowa vote at the end, seemed suspicious.

Hold on. RayFrost, we discussed this in our secret place and this did not appear to be your conclusion there.

You began the night claiming that you thought malthusis was scum. I then pointed out how unlikely that was given the fact that malthusis very likely poisoned Cobalt. You then seemed to waffle (i.e., you thought his play was scummy but that his claim made him town), but eventually concluded that malthusis was Town. You then later moved malthusis to being 'unsure,' while thinking Tarhalindur was scum.

I was left with the impression that you believed malthusis' claim at the very least. Why, then, does malthusis being Town "surprise you"?

~

Unrelated to the above, I expected there to have been a discussion by the time I returned from V/LA. Please, let's get to posting. Towns who don't post don't win.

[RayFrost]

... Processing ...

Malth being town kinda surprised me, since I really didn't like the lack of a konowa vote at the end, seemed suspicious.

Hold on. RayFrost, we discussed this in our secret place and this did not appear to be your conclusion there.

You began the night claiming that you thought malthusis was scum. I then pointed out how unlikely that was given the fact that malthusis very likely poisoned Cobalt. You then seemed to waffle (i.e., you thought his play was scummy but that his claim made him town), but eventually concluded that malthusis was Town. You then later moved malthusis to being 'unsure,' while thinking Tarhalindur was scum.

I was left with the impression that you believed malthusis' claim at the very least. Why, then, does malthusis being Town "surprise you"?

Believing a claim != believing alignment.

He was uncertain, but I had my doubts. And you know my initial stance, and that's what would tinge my uncertainty. Would you disagree that previous stances would impact my current viewpoint?

I waffled on him because every part of me screamed he was scum but your logic made sense. :/

And I still think tar is scum. Remember your own advice in our QT, as well. No reason for me to avoid sticking to it.

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

He was uncertain, but I had my doubts. And you know my initial stance, and that's what would tinge my uncertainty. Would you disagree that previous stances would impact my current viewpoint?

I would not disagree -- I just want to be sure that you are being consistent with what you have told me compared to what you are saying publicly.

It is just difficult for me to understand why anybody would be "surprised" that malthusis was Town given the fact that (i) he poisoned Cobalt on the same night UncertainKitten was killed (very likely by the Mafia), when (ii) there was already a dead Serial Killer as well as a dead Survivor as of last night.

[Sajin]

Ok Glados before I respond to your reasons you want me to claim, I want you to answer this:

Do you think it is impossible for me to be the source of the disappeared kill due to Malth's action of knocking me out for 24 hours?


Also does anyone else want to state they have 2 wincons? Because I thought that was very odd....and I doubt Kinetic would just put 1 person in the game with 2 wincons. Its not his style at all looking at his notes on WoT mafia.

@Mod: For Malthusis to win, was vengeance/town a Combination or either/or condition? Did he need to achieve BOTH or just 1 in order to win?

Also, define the vengeance win condition please.

You'll have to check the role pm in question for the answers you seek.

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

1.)

Do you think it is impossible for me to be the source of the disappeared kill due to Malth's action of knocking me out for 24 hours?

I will assume this question can refer both to the Night Two disappearance of chamber as well as the Night Three disappearance of malthusis.

In respect to Night Two, I think it is doubtful that malthusis' drug would role-block you so as to prevent you from causing the Night Two disappearance.

In respect to Night Three, that is quite dependent on how the Mod wishes the drug to work. The Mod could technically have it so that you are knocked out at "midnight" such that on Night Two you could submit an action at a quarter 'til midnight, and then on Night Three you could submit an action a quarter after midnight (so that you are in effect removed for simply a Day of the game). Alternatively, the Mod could intend for you to have been drugged so as to miss both a Day as well as a Night.

Put another way: a plain reading of 24-hour knockout drug

implies

missing both a Night and a Day, but it does not

necessitate

missing both a Night and a Day.

Obviously your argument here is: (i) there might only be one scum remaining; (ii) you could not have submitted a nightkill if you were knocked out at the time; and (iii) if both of those premises are true then you are not scum. I am certainly not oblivious to that possibility. However, even if that turns out to be true, I do not think that excuses you from claiming your role today.

2.)

Why do you feel a need to "respond" to my reasons that you should claim? It seems pretty straightforward that you should be claiming in a situation where we have all claimed. The fact that I can outline the basic theoretical reasons for why you should claim in this situation is not indicative of my alignment, but is simply common sense.

3.)

For the record, my only win condition is Town.

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

I would like to theorize at this point that malthusis' target(s) as a Vengeance role was to kill a certain John, or perhaps all Johns. This is obviated when you isolate malthusis' posts and read his last two posts. There, he says he is "not taking any chances" while he votes for DragonsofSummer (who claimed John), and his last post asks a clarification for when win conditions are fulfilled ("immediately, or at the start of day?"). This question was also made after JulianVonWolfe (who claimed John) had overexerted himself to be officially dead. Add the fact that malthusis seemed to have it out for John's in particular, and there you have it.

What this says about DragonsofSummer's alignment I neither know nor care -- for me, malthusis' target will not have an effect on my vote today. I do not think malthusis was told the alignment of his target, nor exactly who his target was. I just wanted to get this speculation out of the way earlier rather than later.

[Tarhalindur]

Post to avoid replacement (

V/LA until further notice - Illness

.)

I'll try to have that case on Sajin up later tonight, but can't guarantee it.

[Kinetic]

Day 4, Vote Count 2 (Eighteen)

(0)

GLaDOS

()

(0)

Sajin

()

(0)

RayFrost

()

(0)

Tarhalindur

()

(0)

DragonsofSummer

()

Currently there are 5 votes in play, this means it will require 3 to lynch.
Currently there are $%$#%@ players alive.

Deadline, March 18, 2010 (End of the Day EST).

Extension Votes

(0) :

3 Votes required for extension.

[Sajin]

Can we get replacement/ another prod on DoS?

@Glados- I completely disagree. My information would not be the 12/12 piece, it would be about 6.5/12 because of the non ability reveals and partial information we have from the dead. This would be different if we knew all of the roles that died.

In addition to that I think I am clear of the dissapeared flavor. It appeared when I was knocked unconscious for 24 hours. Malthusis stated he thought said ability was a roleblock. I don't see what relevance night 2 or night 3 has and I really don't see how you can derive your "midnight" conclusion based on what Malth said.

I don't see why you are wanting to agree with Malth's claim about some aspects and disagree with it about others. I really want to know why you are doing this.

@Tar- I am waiting on your case. Lets hear it.

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

Sajin, my point is that we do not know how malthusis' "knockout" ability work. This is not a question of how

I

want malthusis' ability to work. This game would be easier to figure out if you were in fact role-blocked, but I will not jump to that conclusion.

I have been screwed over my assuming too much when a mod gives information, and hence I am careful to parse what a Mod says. For a more extreme example, take Space Monkeys Mafia. Here is the part of the opening flavor:

You are the surviving crew of the SS Simian. You are all that stand between the Gorillas and Galactic domination. You must make a last, desperate stand on the Ship’s bridge, to save the Galaxy. Although you face only a small number of the Gorillas, they are armed and well organised, while you have no weapons. The only way to defeat them is to use your combined strength to force them into the airlock one at a time. That would be hard enough at the best of times. But to make matters worse, the fog of battle means you cannot even see clearly who is a Space Monkey and who is Gorilla.

You must defeat the brutal Gorillas. The SS Simian must not fall into their hands. The safety of the Galaxy depends on you!

Here was my role:

Gorilla Soldier (Scum)

You are a member of the elite Gorilla Space Assault squad, sent on the mission to capture the SS Simian and slaughter the crew.

But in the battle for the bridge you have become separated from your team and exhausted all your ammo. With all the confusion, they will have to find you – I will tell you if that happens. Until then, you must do what you can on your own to defeat the Space Monkeys.

You win when all the Space Monkeys are dead and at least one Gorilla survives. Please PM me to confirm.

The game began with Night, after which SpeedyKQ, a Space Monkey Doctor, died. Absolutely everything made me assume I was a Traitor: (i) I was explicitly told I was "Scum"' (ii) the opening flavor made it seem like there was a "small number of Gorillas" (i.e. Mafia); (iii) the opening flavor told us the Gorillas were "organized," i.e. knew each other (i.e. Mafia); (iv) the opening flavor told us that the Space Monkeys "had no weapons"; and (v) and there was a death of a Space Monkey on Night One.

It turned out that the Night One kill was planned by the Mod; that 13 out of 18 was a "small number" to Mr. Stoofer; that the Space Monkeys

technically

began the game "without weapons" and then crafted a weapon during Night One ; that "organized" did not mean that Gorillas knew who each other were; and that being told I was "scum" was just semantics.

So please excuse me when I do not jump to what might seem to be the most logical conclusion every time I receive information.

I think we are both abundantly aware that Kinetic certainly could be doing something similar in this game, since, as you pointed out yourself, Kinetic was the mod for the most recent Wheel of Time Mafia. And in that game, Kinetic let out Aes Sedai roles with the clarification:

For the first oath, you cannot type a word that is not true. You can ‘lie’ by omission, or ask a question in such a way that you imply a false answer, but you cannot lie directly. You can also lie if you do not know what you are speaking is not true, however you can never represent something as true if you do not know for a fact (or believe for a fact) is true. (For Example, many people believe god exists, and if an Aes Sedai who believes god exists is asked “Does God exist” they can answer yes. While an Aes Sedai who does not believe God exists can answer the same question as “No”. However you cannot say “I know (insert mafia player) is scum” unless you 100% believe it. You can say “I believe XXX is scum” as that would not be a lie. )

(If you have read the books you know that Aes Sedai are weavers of words, and the ‘truth’ you think you hear is not always the real truth. You also know that if an Aes Sedai says something is fact, that it is fact.)

If you break this rule you will lose the ability to use ANY One-Power ability at night. I will be the sole judge of this. I may give you a warning if I believe you have said an untruth. This does not mean you cannot deceive; just the no word you type is untrue.

Learn to know the difference.

As Kinetic knows, there is a difference between lying and deceiving. I am simply leaving the option open that Kinetic has made a deceiving role.

~

Regardless, I do not see why you are making such a large deal out of this in order to avoid claiming your role. I have thought you were Town since replacing into the game, and you are not even on my short list of 2 scum with 5 players left alive.

Furthermore, if you want to push and shove, please remember that Boxman was not present on Night Two and also could not have sent the disappearing kill. If there is one scum remaining, it is not Boxman (now

me

). That means if you are going to push your logic on me, expect to have my logic pushed on you. If you are going to concede, however, that there are two scum remaining and therefore I cannot be ruled out as scum, then you, too, cannot be ruled out as scum.

Now, claim your role.

[Kinetic]

DoS has been prodded, I'm giving him until Tuesday to respond until I look for a replacement.

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

I am more than mildly disturbed that the two people I know or consider most likely to be Town (myself and Sajin) are essentially arguing with each other in-thread while the other players are not posting.

DragonsofSummer, I have seen you post on February 25, March 2 and yesterday, March 7, all in Mini 923. Despite this, you have not used any of those days to post in

this

game. You were very clearly available to send in the disappearing kill, and you are very clearly available to at least make a post in this game to show your presence. Get to posting. There is no reason Kinetic should be forced to find a replacement for you.

[RayFrost]

I don't really know what

to

post. >.<

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

I don't really know what

to

post. >.<

Here are a few topics, off the top of my motherboard:

1.)

Do you think Sajin should claim his role? Why or why not?

2.)

Do you think DragonsofSummer is intentionally lurking?

3.)

Do you think Sajin was role-blocked on either Night Two or Night Three due to malthusis' 24-hour knockout drug?

4.)

What do you think of Tarhalindur's Hider claim now that we know Konowa was telling the truth about being a Survivor? Be specific.

5.)

What do you think of my latest posts? Do you believe I am being manipulative? Dishonest? Faking?

6.)

How many scum do you think are most likely left in the game? Why?

[Kinetic]

Replacing DoS, Tar has a noted VLa

[RayFrost]

... Processing ...

I don't really know what

to

post. >.<

Here are a few topics, off the top of my motherboard:

1.)

Do you think Sajin should claim his role? Why or why not?

2.)

Do you think DragonsofSummer is intentionally lurking?

3.)

Do you think Sajin was role-blocked on either Night Two or Night Three due to malthusis' 24-hour knockout drug?

4.)

What do you think of Tarhalindur's Hider claim now that we know Konowa was telling the truth about being a Survivor? Be specific.

5.)

What do you think of my latest posts? Do you believe I am being manipulative? Dishonest? Faking?

6.)

How many scum do you think are most likely left in the game? Why?

I do because we had a MC yesterday, but he wasn't around then, so he should follow through and claim as well.

I think he's flaked, as per the replacement.

It's possible, but I don't really know how the knockout drug works, so I have no certainty either way on that.

I think the hider claim is suspect and seems like an easy fakeclaim. As a hider, he can be 'clear' from kills via his role when it really isn't solid at all. It seems too easy a role to fake without being confirmed.

I think you've been honest. You are my most solid town read right now.

I think one or two (two being unlikely) because of the number of people dead and the number of mafia dead. I'm not very good at this kind of speculation, though, so I'd take my own thoughts with a grain of salt.

Same questions to you.

[DragonsofSummer]

I just pm'd Kinetic about this, but I wanted to post here as well, I have had very little time to post in the last little while, and thought I had posted here to let you know, but appaerently that didn't happen, and I am sorry. If I am still in the game I am in the process of rereading, and will have some thoughts for you tomorrow afternoon.

I'll allow it!

[DragonsofSummer]

GlaDOS

: Replaced boxman. As far as box goes, I saw very little scum hunting, but GlaDOS has changed that completely since joining the game. At the same time most of the times she brings up her suspicions she just says who she is suspicious of with no reasoning attached. But given her questionings of the other players, and her involvement in the game since joining I am inclined to believe she is town.

RayFrost

: I really didn't like the period where he basically stopped participating because the flavor discussions "confused" him, but other than that period I have been impressed with his posting, and I do like that he wants more than just flavor reasons to follow a case. Of the two neighbors I think Ray is more likely to be town based solely on his active contribution to the game, but that being said I feel both of them are town at the moment. (Ray also has the most posts of any player left in the game by far, which is consistent with my town meta of him)

Sajin

: His early posting had him in my town catagory, but I feel his posting devolved about post 14 of his iso. Calling Malth saying girlfriend instead of boyfriend a scum slip is a huge stretch, and as most people had been using flavor for a majority of their cases up until that point, calling him out for that while not calling out anyone else is also bad (He asked tar about it, but never used it as part of a case against him). He also keeps trying to get people to tell him who is scum with very little of his own thoughts on it ever given. In all he seems very inconsistent.

Tarhalindur

: I've had a pretty firm town feeling on tar all game, but given that konowa came back survivor I am not sure how much of his claim I can believe anymore. He has also been very pushy to get his way when things start to go a different direction. I'm uncertain of his alignment at this point.

For now

FoS: Sajin

[GLaDOS]

Same questions to you.

I have largely already answered those questions.

1.)

Yes, Sajin should claim his role, for the reasons I have explained earlier.

2.)

I think DragonsofSummer remembered this game was in progress and chose not to post, and I consider that lurking. I also think scum are more likely to lurk than Town. He was obviously available to post since he had posted in an on-going game.

3.)

I am unsure if Sajin was role-blocked, as explained earlier.

4.)

Tarhalindur's claim is much more likely to be a fake-claim than it was previously now that Konowa has been shown to have not been lying when he claimed Survivor. As an afterthought, it makes little sense that Tarhalindur would "know" that all Hiders in this game would necessarily

have

to have his mechanics.

5.)

~ Insert Self-Serving Statement Here ~

6.)

Either one or two scum should be remaining, as explained previously. Hopefully there is only one on account of there having been a Survivor.

~

DragonsofSummer:

1.)

Please answer the six questions I asked RayFrost in Post 616 (although I understand you've answered or partially answered some of them).

2.)

When Sajin called malthusis out for claiming girlfriend rather than boyfriend, who else should he have "called out"?

~

Tarhalindur, since you have just recently replaced into Left 4 Dead Mafia as of yesterday, I assume you must be well enough to post in this game. Please get to posting.

~

Reminder #1

: Deadline is in seven [7] days unless we vote for an extension.

Reminder #2

: Sajin still needs to claim his role.

[Tarhalindur]

V/LA due to illness ended Sunday; V/LA due to midterms ended today (decided not to bother posting an update, since it was just changing the reason for the V/LA).

Case should be up tomorrow at latest.

[GLaDOS]

... Processing ...

...

...

...

I am so very,

very

GLaD I decided to join this game. It is always a pleasure to play with such an active group of players.

Vote: Deadline Extension.

[RayFrost]

Vote: Deadline Extension

geez, not my fault