Mini 955 - Classic Mafia - Over

[Exilon]

I have meditated upon Exilon on isolation. It is true, what esurio says about the oddity of his unvote, and there are some places where his tone is both nervous and appeasing. Such things were not reflected in the completed game that he offered us. This is enough that I have stricken his name from the Book of Life, but not enough that I have listed him as a suspect yet.

Exilon: Is something about this game intimidating to you? What is your opinion of the allegation that Seacore has been jumping his vote around? Are you suspicious of hiphop? Thank you for your answers.

First, what did Esurio say about the oddity of my unvote? If I recall correctly, she only agreed with Hip hop on what I have already answered, and you didn't address any part of that answer on my post.

Instead, you add that there were some places where my tone was nervous and appeasing; but you don't provide any examples of this. With such two subjective qualifiers as those, we have no way of comparing it to our knowledge, and therefore we're left with nothing. I, for example, can't even defend myself, because I don't know how something qualifies as nervous and appeasing to you. So I'd like to ask if you could please point out what you have found.

If there is something about this game that intimidates me? Well, if there is something, it's the size of the game, and the heavy content on it. I can compare it to when you first walk on a big stadium full of people - you might be used to see it on TV, but when you're there, the size of it intimidates you, and it's a completely different experience.

My opinion on Seacore? I briefly addressed it on an earlier post, but I didn't really go into the jump-issue in detail. As for me, any player that jumps alot, even if for the "right reasons", tends to lose credibility. At some point, that credibility loss might become suspicion material; but as for Seacore, I believe it isn't much of a suspicious behaviour as it is playstyle, at least for now.

I'm not very suspicious of Hiphop, although I got a little ticked off about that first mis-interpretation. Even so, being ticked off does not equal being suspicious of - at most, it makes me more wary of that player.

[Exilon]

EDBWOP: and you didn't address any part of that answer on my post.
... should read "on your post".

If there's anything else that seems off, please bip me xD

[AlmasterGM]

Day 1, Vote Count 5 - Afternoon Nap

With 12 players alive, 7 votes are required to lynch. The Deadline is May 2nd, 2010 at 11:59 EST.

Votes

Super Smash Bros. Fan - 4

(Seacore, Deer, TheLordJesus, esuriospiritus)

Seacore - 2

(Wickedestjr, Super Smash Bros. Fan)

The Lord Jesus - 2

(podium123456, GreenDude)

Exilon - 1

(hiphop)

Not Voting - 3

(Exilon, Master Tang, TheCheshireCat)

Activity

GreenDude

has not picked up his prod. I have begun searching for a replacement.

Master Tang

has not posted within 48 hours and has received his second prod.

Wickedestjr

has not posted within 48 hours and has received his first prod.

[Master Tang]

Wow giant walls of text, Will take me a while to read and post anything worth while. !0 days to lynching, correct?

[Wickedestjr]

Hi guys. I'm sorry for my inactivity. Still catching up. The conversations between podium and Exilon look like town vs. town. I can understand both sides of the conversation coming from a townie. TLJ's judgement is interesting. Anxious to see how he replies to the questions directed at him.

Could somebody please explain the reasons for voting SSBF?

Also, Seacore, please show me where you have responded to my points against you. If you haven't then please respond and explain why you have ignore them for so long.

@Mod

- I really want to keep playing this game, but I am going to have no computer access the next two days. This has been an unusually busy week, but I think I should have plenty of time in the following week. Is that allowable?

(No problem, V/LA noted. Thanks for letting me know. --AGM)

[Master Tang]

Could somebody please explain the reasons for voting SSBF?

I too would appreciate people explaining their reasons for voting SSBF. I would be doubly greatful if you could do it in a reasonable size and not a wall of text.

[TheCheshireCat]

Who is that better lynch, Cheshire?

haha are you serious?
I think the better lynch is Super.

and btw hip-hop, see that little pink symbol underneath my avi
and i have a FOS on him, and i have stated why i have a fos insted of a vote, go back and read if you dont remeber


sry dont have a lot of time this is all i have for now

[Seacore]

Oh my god wicked. I've responded to your questions. Look them up yourself. An ISO of me should help.

An ISO of me should also help the SSBF question you have.

[Seacore]

Fine.

A summary of the SSBF case.

SSBF launched into an opening post stating that his top two suspects were TLJ and myself.
He then stated that TLJ wasn't that scummy, but that he didn't like his style of posting and that he had at most a null read on him.

He then made a case against me that other people seem to agree is flawed. Largely, that I've been suspicious and aggressive towards many people and that makes me scummy. He did not take the time to differentiate between me attacking plays I didn't like (wicked and deer most notably), me voting tactically (TLJ bandwagon) and me voting with a strong desire to lynch (MasterTang and now himself).

He then declared that Greendude was also a little scummy because he was going after TLJ because he didn't like his posting style.

I declare this is an incredibly scummy post because
a) It's hipocrital. He's attacking Greendude for the same thing he's doing himself.
b) It's contradictory. He's saying he has a null read on TLJ, but that TLJ is one of his top suspects.
c) It involves some blatant distancing. I think his attack on Greendude without including Greendude in his original summary of suspects is made to look like he's suspicious of Greendude for later use. Greendude is probably his scum buddy.

Since then he has back tracked on TLJ, now listing Greendude as his second suspect.
It is also clear that, apart from attacking me, his other suspects were designed to make it look like he was willing to consider other suspects. I.e. It was designed to make him look like a scum hunter.
He has then made several Appeal to Emotion posts about being misunderstood, and his original attack on me has started wavering. I'm now guilty because I've taken so much of the limelight?

There is nobody, nobody who is as scummy as SSBF and I believe we should move forward with a lynch. Or at least to L-1, let him claim and decide what to do. But at this point, I'd be suspicious of a claim anyway.

[Deer]

Who is that better lynch, Cheshire?

haha are you serious?
I think the better lynch is Super.

I know you don't like throwing around your vote, but you have to make it at some point. Why don't you vote him?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Seacore, Deer, TheLordJesus, and esuriospiritus: I'd like for all of you to respond to my latest post. Give out your opinion on it and why you like or dislike the post.

[Seacore]

Your latest post is almost pure Appeal to Emotion.

Your previous games tell us nothing. As you've said, you did a poor job of playing scum and were caught out. You probably changed your scum game a lot from that experience, so looking at it tells us nothing.

Your case on me seems to have devolved into "I think Seacore is scummy because his actions will make people look at him like he is scummy"

You have not explained why you felt the need to list TLJ as one of your two main suspects from your first post.

You have not explained why Greendude was not listed among these suspects despite your points against him being harsher than your points against TLJ (in your first post).

Apart from apologising and saying that we have misunderstood you (which is AtE) you have not explained why you felt it necessary to construct multiple suspects when apparently I was your only genuine suspect.

Overall, I feel that you are our best lynch of today and I expect you to flip scum. If you do flip scum, I will likely be looking very harshly at Greendude. Less so if you flip town (and he gets replaced by someone who actually contributes)

[TheCheshireCat]

hyey guys im really sry but i am gonna be

V/LA

this weekend, be back sunday night/ monday morning.

(V/LA noted. --AGM)

[podium123456]

Podium: I do apolgize for that. If I am still alive when it is appropriate for me to explain in detail, I will do so unprompted.

Why would it not be appropriate for you to explain it now? It's a simple question, and i am confused by both of your responses (they both say the same thing, basically, even though you thought i was talking about something else the first time you responded). Were you not accusing him of bandwagoning? It looks like you are. It does not make sense to me that you would accuse him of BW'ing (on you, no less), breaking one of your 'commandments', and then judge him innocent.

Due to your gameplay, i had been considering moving on to other targets... but when you tell me to basically stop asking you about an issue, it sends up red flags. Is it because i dont understand your point, or is it because you recognize a misstep and dont want to have to try and explain it?

[podium123456]

Hiphop:

I have a gut feeling that Hiphop is tunneling on Exilon for some reason. Upon doing an ISO, i realized that he appears to mainly be voting Exilon due to the circumstances surrounding Exilon's unvote on me. Yet Esurio did almost the exact same thing, and Hiphop never mentioned it. Odd. And it corresponds with an earlier accusation (from Esurio) that Hiphop was reaching hard to put a non-RVS vote on someone.

Hiphop, you are slowly rising on my scum-meter. Please explain why you considered Exilon's unvote on me so scummy, and never mentioned it when Esurio did almost the exact same thing.

------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

Viewing Hiphop in that light, leads me to consider other teams. Upon reading more ISO's i noticed this.

TLJ places a vote on Hiphop in post 84 using one of his patented 'wait... huh? oh... ok.. i think i understand... wait, what?' arguments. In post 98, he re-iterates that Hiphop has 'broken one of his fathers commandments'. Then in post 102 with NO RESPONSE from Hiphop, he removes his vote and places it on someone else. Bussing hiphop perhaps?

Fast forward to where we are now in the game. Hiphop makes his case against exilon, using what i consider to be a biased reason. In post 199 TLJ

agrees

with Hiphop that the unvote was odd... yet he COMPLIMENTED Esurio for the same type of behavior in post 161.

Something smells to me. I dont think TLJ is a person that would remove a vote off someone that has 'broken a commandment' without SOME reply. But, i could be wrong about that. However, i certainly dont think TLJ is the type of player that would not realize that Hiphop didn't say anything to Esurio when she did the same thing that Exilon did. TLJ seems to be VERY sharp and VERY tuned in to this game, and has been calling out players for this same type of behavior. But doesn't here.

Care to address that TLJ?

[podium123456]

TCC - Why are you being so cautious/timid? We are 9 pages in, and you have essentially not placed a vote yet.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------

SSBF - As i mentioned earlier, I feel like we have been getting a lot of double talk from you. Along with a heavy dose of AtE comments like this one:

I have absolutely nothing to hide from you guys and that is a promise.

Sorry man, but stuff like that just reeks. Seacore has made a compelling case, and others have joined in as well. I feel taking it at least to L-1 for a claim is probably where this is headed. No need to drag it out longer than neccessary.

UNVOTE

VOTE: SSBF

[hiphop]

I will answer all questions in the morning. Don't have time to do them now.

[The Lord Jesus]

Exilon: Please forgive me. In my haste, I wrote esurio's name when I should have written hiphop's. It was he who pointed out the problem with your unovote, and with whom I agreed. I read your response to him, but did not find it sufficient reason to dismiss his testimony. The most concerning instances of tone that seemed nervous and appeasing to me were when you spoke to Wick in your fifth and seventh posts (iso 4/6), hiphop in your eighth (iso 7), during the unvote of which he has testified (iso 8), and -to a lesser degree- in your tenth statement (iso 9). I am willing to quote and discuss these should you request it, brother, but I would prefer to spend these last days focusing on those more worthy of the noose. I have not condemned you as a sinner, only removed your name from the list of my most trusted.

Master Tang: Your prayers are answered. I will repeat my condemnation of Super Smash in a separate post.

Super Smash: You asked for my opinion on your last post. I believe that it apologizes for but does not explain your actions. On the matter of your opinion of Green, you have stumbled again over your own contradictions. If you are truly distraught, then you have my pity, but my vote will remain.

Podium: In a similar vein, you have made accusations against myslef and hiphop that are unreasonable. Even I was born of man, and men are not omniscient. Players, no matter their skill, should never be held to a standard of perfection; failing to see something is not a sign of guilt, but only of humanity. However... if you do not understand the difference between where esurio removed her vote from you and where Exilon did, then I fear you have not read the case against Exilon closely enough.

You go on to conflate this argument with two more points against me: that I voted hiphop vaguley and that I removed that vote prematurely. To the first I quoth: I was questioned about my suspicion of hiphop and answered; as well, I continued to question him and found the answers that I was seeking. To the second I say, verily, meditate upon what I have done. I voted hiphop for a minor infraction. Before he answered me, brother Seacore inspired new information and esurio left my bandwagon in a way that seemed suspicious. I simply moved my vote onto the person whom I felt was most worthy of it at the time.

All: The deadline is not far off and we must reserve enough time to discuss a roleclaim should one come, so let us decide upon a lynch forthwith. It is my suggestion that Super Smash be placed at L-1. What say you?

[The Lord Jesus]

I cannot fault Super's persecutors. He states a fear of being seen as having tunnelvision and so lists suspicions which he, himself, does not believe. He has done so to Green and to myself, violating both the first and fifth commandments. Even when lambasting Seacore, he minimizes his own faith. Super is too timid and apologetic to be among the chosen. His latest post, wherein he asks about Seacore's judgment of "interesting," suggests that he has not read the arguments of his only heartfelt suspect, for that point was explained in deatil already. I believe this wagon to be just and true.

Master Tang: The first and fifth commandments are (1) Thou shalt have no motivations before the town's and (5) Honor your reads and perspective. In addition to this, Super has confirmed a contradiction in his own words: in his third post he says none of Green's posts have been very scummy, though a serious suspicion of Green was stated in his first post, a fact confirmed in his sixth.

[hiphop]

Exilon 197

1) Now you are being smart with me. One vote on a person will not kill. 7 votes yes, but not 1. So your response of not wanting him lynched, when you suspect him irritates me a lot.

2)That is where building comes into play. If you can't build either he is town, and you don't suspect him, or he is obv scum. Since you suspect him he must be toward obv scum, yet you are not convinced that he is, Why?

3) Now you are fence sitting. Does major fos mean anything to you at all, or are those just words to get the town off your back. You say he is your only main suspect, but you are not even making an attempt at scumhunting anyone. Therefore yoou are scummy in abiding your time.

As for your comment on "those hobos" it is better than what you are doing. I would think that when you say "blatant scummy content" it is obv scum. Or do you believe scummy content does not make him scum?

Fast forward to where we are now in the game. Hiphop makes his case against exilon, using what i consider to be a biased reason. In post 199 TLJ

agrees

with Hiphop that the unvote was odd... yet he COMPLIMENTED Esurio for the same type of behavior in post 161.

Who wrote 161?

I have a gut feeling that Hiphop is tunneling on Exilon for some reason. Upon doing an ISO, i realized that he appears to mainly be voting Exilon due to the circumstances surrounding Exilon's unvote on me. Yet Esurio did almost the exact same thing, and Hiphop never mentioned it. Odd. And it corresponds with an earlier accusation (from Esurio) that Hiphop was reaching hard to put a non-RVS vote on someone.

Esurio did not do the same thing. Esurio is actually voting for someone who she thinks is scummy. When she unvoted you, it was because she found someone scummier, yet she still fos, because she still suspected you, though not as much as the person that is she is voting for. Exilion unvote you, why? He didn't want to see you lynched when A) you are his top suspect, and B) you were at L-6? What? If that isn't scummy, I don't know what is.

haha are you serious?
I think the better lynch is Super.

and i have a FOS on him, and i have stated why i have a fos insted of a vote, go back and read if you dont remeber

You have stated you don't like throwing your vote around. When will be a good time to vote someone?

[Master Tang]

Fine.

A summary of the SSBF case.

SSBF launched into an opening post stating that his top two suspects were TLJ and myself.
He then stated that TLJ wasn't that scummy, but that he didn't like his style of posting and that he had at most a null read on him.

He then made a case against me that other people seem to agree is flawed. Largely, that I've been suspicious and aggressive towards many people and that makes me scummy. He did not take the time to differentiate between me attacking plays I didn't like (wicked and deer most notably), me voting tactically (TLJ bandwagon) and me voting with a strong desire to lynch (MasterTang and now himself).

He then declared that Greendude was also a little scummy because he was going after TLJ because he didn't like his posting style.

I declare this is an incredibly scummy post because
a) It's hipocrital. He's attacking Greendude for the same thing he's doing himself.
b) It's contradictory. He's saying he has a null read on TLJ, but that TLJ is one of his top suspects.
c) It involves some blatant distancing. I think his attack on Greendude without including Greendude in his original summary of suspects is made to look like he's suspicious of Greendude for later use. Greendude is probably his scum buddy.

Since then he has back tracked on TLJ, now listing Greendude as his second suspect.
It is also clear that, apart from attacking me, his other suspects were designed to make it look like he was willing to consider other suspects. I.e. It was designed to make him look like a scum hunter.
He has then made several Appeal to Emotion posts about being misunderstood, and his original attack on me has started wavering. I'm now guilty because I've taken so much of the limelight?

There is nobody, nobody who is as scummy as SSBF and I believe we should move forward with a lynch. Or at least to L-1, let him claim and decide what to do. But at this point, I'd be suspicious of a claim anyway.

I cannot fault Super's persecutors. He states a fear of being seen as having tunnelvision and so lists suspicions which he, himself, does not believe. He has done so to Green and to myself, violating both the first and fifth commandments. Even when lambasting Seacore, he minimizes his own faith. Super is too timid and apologetic to be among the chosen. His latest post, wherein he asks about Seacore's judgment of "interesting," suggests that he has not read the arguments of his only heartfelt suspect, for that point was explained in deatil already. I believe this wagon to be just and true.

Master Tang: The first and fifth commandments are (1) Thou shalt have no motivations before the town's and (5) Honor your reads and perspective. In addition to this, Super has confirmed a contradiction in his own words: in his third post he says none of Green's posts have been very scummy, though a serious suspicion of Green was stated in his first post, a fact confirmed in his sixth.

I would like you both for summarizing you cases and you both have convinced me.

VOTE: SSBF

. You both have a very good point about his contradicting statements and scum-like behavior.

[podium123456]

Esurio did not do the same thing. Esurio is actually voting for someone who she thinks is scummy. When she unvoted you, it was because she found someone scummier, yet she still fos, because she still suspected you, though not as much as the person that is she is voting for. Exilion unvote you, why?

.

Ok, i hear what you are saying with the not voting for someone else part.

However... if you do not understand the difference between where esurio removed her vote from you and where Exilon did, then I fear you have not read the case against Exilon closely enough.

How hard is it to say, "it's because he didn't vote for anyone else"... if that's what you are referring to? And you can save the clever philosophical retort.

Also I find it rude (aside from the possible scumminess of it) that, when someone is confused about something, you refuse to help clear it up. Whatever. As you make your bed, yadda yadda yadda.

[esuriospiritus]

I agree with Exilon that TLJ should point out where exactly he is being accused of being "nervous and appeasing". It would make it easier for exilon to respond to the accusation and thus easier for the rest of us to determine whether we disagree or agree with TLJ's stance.

SSBF, I attempted to read your games but that forum colour scheme hurts my eyes. x_x You technically shouldn't link ongoings anyway, even if they're on another site, even if you're dead in them, but I asked so I don't really consider that your fault. <_<

Regarding your 199, I empathize with you (even if I still think you're scum) on the whole negative attention thing. Everyone seemed to pretty much think I was obvtown in my first few games (on another site), which allowed me to hone my skills a little before I finally got into a game where someone thought I was scummy and I had to defend myself. As one player to another, my advice to you is to read as much game theory as you can get your hands on, and read a few completed games too (revealing to yourself who is what role so you can notice more how certain roles behaved, what worked, and what didn't) and improve your play accordingly.

I too would appreciate people explaining their reasons for voting SSBF. I would be doubly greatful if you could do it in a reasonable size and not a wall of text.

Or

YOU

could read the goddamn game, rather than asking people to repeat themselves, when it's

your own damn fault

that

you

fell behind.

You have been prodded twice now, and

this

is what you come back to the game saying? If you care for the game as little as you obviously do, why did you sign up for it? And why would you persist in active lurking instead of just replacing out if you legitimately can't handle the amount of content that people who

give a frak about the game

churn out?

At least Wicked's return post gives us

some

actual content, geez. (And I am inclined to agree on the exilon vs podium thing.)

@podium 213: I think he's insinuating that it has something to do with an ongoing game, based on his wording. I dunno though.

Esurio did not do the same thing. Esurio is actually voting for someone who she thinks is scummy. When she unvoted you, it was because she found someone scummier, yet she still fos, because she still suspected you, though not as much as the person that is she is voting for. Exilion unvote you, why? He didn't want to see you lynched when A) you are his top suspect, and B) you were at L-6?

This.

Something rubs me wrong about the Exilon case, though. I think it has to do with hiphop's tunneling, but... I don't know. My gut tells me that Exilon is town despite his crappy unvote.

Not liking MT's contentless vote. At all. Don't you have

anything

else to say about what you've missed?

[Seacore]

I feel that MT's vote here is similar to his vote on TLJ, he's just happy to jump on a bandwagon that others have started. Last time he got criticised for having a poor case, so this time he's asked others to make it for him.
He's possibly a third party, or scum, but I don't feel like he's town.
Still, SSBF is a better lynch today.

[Seacore]

Also, MT's vote brings SSBF to L-1.

We have plenty of time left, so I would encourgage SSBF to NOT claim, unless someone posts that they are willing to hammer.

Cheshire, I would like you to actually step up and say you are willing to hammer.

Exilon, I would like to know why you don't want to hammer SSBF (if in fact you do not)

You both should have votes on somebody by now, you're giving the impression that you aren't scum hunting.