Mini 955 - Classic Mafia - Over

[Wickedestjr]

I'm here.... Planning to post soon...

Mod:

I'm V/LA May 8th, and may not be able to post May 7th.

(Noted. --AGM)

[DiamondCrash]

Good town doesn't let people get away with non-commital statements [...] And I'll call people out on them each time I see them.

Ah, that's entirely valid. I too would like to know about that. Secrets like that don't help town.

I for one enjoy hanging scum, and look forward to this happening.

Really, you couldn't try harder to look town if you... well, tried.

Now, who's in Greendude's slot now? because I want him dead.

Why?

But I'm going to assume that esurio was killed by mafia, because most people were assuming esurio was town, most people were iffy about Tang.

MT makes more sense as a Vig or SK kill than a mafia kill.

All we really need to know is there's a vig or SK. Does it matter which one the vig/SK killed and which one the scum killed? If it does, how does it matter? If it doesn't, why even bring it up?

[esuriospiritus]

Go figure it's the one time I'm actually enjoying playing as town, too... BAH! >_<

[Wickedestjr]

My opinion on Seacore? I briefly addressed it on an earlier post, but I didn't really go into the jump-issue in detail. As for me, any player that jumps alot, even if for the "right reasons", tends to lose credibility. At some point, that credibility loss might become suspicion material; but as for Seacore, I believe it isn't much of a suspicious behaviour as it is playstyle, at least for now.

This doesn't really say anything. Ythill/TLJ, were you satisfied with this response?


Post 206 looks bad. TCC seems to show a strong suspicion of SSBF here, yet doesn't vote even though he was only at L-3 at the time of the post. She says she likes to be conservative with her votes, but her behavior strikes me as too conservative. IGMEO DiamondCrash.


Ythill, why did you decide to reveal yourself?


Deer - Still waiting for some contributing from him. It seems like he broke his promise.

[Seacore]

Diamond, I had three major scum suspects yesterday. Two are now dead.
You player slot has contributed nothing but scummy behaviour and lurking.
You are primary suspect today.

Wicked, I'd like to actually hear your opinions rather than just your comments onother people's game.

Who should we lynch today?

VLA Til Tuesday

I'm moving house

(Noted. --AGM)

[Deer]

Hey Ythill! I assume that TLJ is the alt you were talking about in the Mafia in Mendo graveyard thread. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about what it was like playing as him.

Good town doesn't let people get away with non-commital statements [...] And I'll call people out on them each time I see them.

Ah, that's entirely valid. I too would like to know about that. Secrets like that don't help town.

I for one enjoy hanging scum, and look forward to this happening.

Really, you couldn't try harder to look town if you... well, tried.

Do you find Seacore scummy for this? Do you find Seacore scummy for all the things you brought up? None of the things you talked about are even scumtells, as far as I can see. If that's your attempt at a case on Seacore, that's just weak.

[Exilon]

Quick post to quick answer:

This doesn't really say anything. Ythill/TLJ, were you satisfied with this response?

Let me specify for you: I don't think Seacore is acting scummy rather what he has done strikes me as being playstyle-based. Therefore... null read leaning to town on Seacore from me.

sorry; I don't have much time to be able to re-do some notes as I wanted, but for now, I'm suspecting RankStranger. His predecessor wasn't doing a very good job on keeping appearances in my eyes and what I pointed out at twilight still stands.

Vote: RankStranger

Action, please.

I also think a reread on Wicked's ISO is in order for me. I have to make up my mind.

Offtopic:
Hey, you know- being concise and short is actually refreshing. O_o And I've noticed this is something I could use in real life too. This seems like a very nice win-win situation. =D

[Deer]

Hey, you know- being concise and short is actually refreshing. O_o And I've noticed this is something I could use in real life too. This seems like a very nice win-win situation. =D

Told you so.

[podium123456]

From Jesus to Fabio... lol. I hear you on your reason for being cryptic about MT.

hmmm... ok, well. some thoughts i guess. MT was definitely my next choice after SSBF... but now that role is out of the equation... so back to the drawing board.

As an observation, i noticed that seacore seems to be very pushy with his language at times -- 'we are lynching ssbf today'... 'who's in greendude's slot? i want him dead'... 'i'm definitely not scummy enough for a lynch'... etc. When no one is clear to lead, self appointed shot-callers are going to get second looks... at least from me. And, as DC noted, seacore has never shied away from dropping 'i am town' lines occasionally. But like i said, those are just observations... he's not high on my list at all right now. That stuff is kind of too wifomy to base a call on, by themselves... could just be his playstyle.

Magnaofillusion is, of course, high on the suspect list.... because of greendudes non-existent posting. So, you're definately gonna have to start laying down some words today, to give us something to work with. Sooner better than later.

DC, when it was all said and done, your role looked really bad yesterday IMO. She posted a lot, and said a lot of strong things about other players... yet she never actually placed a vote. Her reason was 'i like to be conservative with my votes'... but the day expired without her placing one. But, perhaps that was due to her having to leave the game near the end of the day. Regardless, i'm keepin a close eye on you at this point.

Exilon... he just seems kinda nervous/touchy. LOL.. can i get away with saying that and not having to explain why... cause i dont really know why... just an overall feeling i got from yesterday. That's just an observation, doesn't mean anything one way or the other right now. And, I did get what hiphop/TLJ were talking about regarding his unvote on me, after i reread things. Don't know how i feel about that action.

Today, my biggest scum needle is pointing at wicked. Just weird playing from him yesterday, as a whole IMO. Most of which i outlined in my ISO 29 (to which he never responded to... seems to be a trend of his).

From his activity/language/exp. at the start of the day, i was expecting him to be a leader in the scum hunting... but then he got hung up on that stuff at the very start of the day with seacore and, oddly, stayed with it till the end. Only after several people started talking about it, did he remove his vote from seacore... and then placed it on Deer for lack of contributing. ...but, if that was his criteria, greendude (or maybe even TCC) would have seemed a

much

better choice for his vote. Also, 'lack of contributing' seems an odd reason for a vote at the end of the day, when there was so much questionable actions/language available in the thread from other players.

I think wicked can stand some pressure today.

VOTE: Wickedestjr

[Ythill]

Ythill/TLJ, were you satisfied with this response?

Yes, in that it addressed my specific concern.

Ythill, why did you decide to reveal yourself?

I figured it would make you shit your pants if you're the arsonist.

Seriously though, I'll probably discuss TLJ @ length in MD after this game, but the general idea was to play my own VI, which becomes sub-optimal after D1, hence the reveal. TLJ is great scum-bait but probably not as good as straight Ythill for everything else. I think it worked well but I will not know for sure until I look back through the thread.

So anyway... I've got some coffee and some time and I'm going to start my rereads. May not finish tonight but I'll keep up on current affairs. Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that Exilon is the arsonist, scum are Diamond, Magna, and Wicked. Of course that's all just wild speculation and I reserve the right to change it completely after considering, you know, actual evidence.

[podium123456]

I figured it would make you shit your pants if you're the arsonist.

'You' meaning wicked, or 'you' meaning whoever is the arsonist?

And why would that make them go poopy?

May not finish tonight but I'll keep up on current affairs. Off the top of my head, I'm guessing that Exilon is the arsonist,

You still believe there is an arsonist, even after the mod's PSA (post 341)?

As seacore pointed out, if an arsonist killed esurio, that means mafia killed MT... which would be a strange choice for them, IMO. I think it's more likely we have something like a vig.

[Ythill]

'You' meaning wicked, or 'you' meaning whoever is the arsonist?

And why would that make them go poopy?

Just Wick. Last time I played with him, he was SK. I caught him and got him lynched pretty much single-handedly on D2.

You still believe there is an arsonist, even after the mod's PSA (post 341)?

I missed that. Don't know that it matters though. We've got a second kill. I haven't found any indication of that killer's alignment yet.

As seacore pointed out, if an arsonist killed esurio, that means mafia killed MT... which would be a strange choice for them, IMO.

Unless they understood why I was keeping secrets and thought I was on to something. I don't think there's much to be gained from NK speculation at this point.

Still reading...

[podium123456]

Just Wick. Last time I played with him, he was SK. I caught him and got him lynched pretty much single-handedly on D2.

just out of curiosity, do you have a link to that game? search is disabled. no biggie if it's a hassle to track down.

[Ythill]

You can use this to search for meta. The game was Mafia in Sienna.

[Ythill]

(In case you didn't catch it, podium, that thing about Wick and the arsonist was just a little inside joke. The actual reason I revealed is below that.)

Okay... I finished my reread. I still need to go through the notes, do a few isos, and check for buddy interactions. But I can tell you that there are some mistakes in the wild guesses I made earlier, and give you what I've found at a glance.

Exilon is not the second killer. He is scum. Without doubt. Rank and podium are cleaner that a tweaker's kitchen. I wouldn't go quite that far with Seacore, but I'll be very surprised if he's scum. I'll tell you about everyone else after I've had some sleep and some time to sift through all this information.

vote Exilon

[Exilon]

So Ythil places a vote on me, after changing his first belief on the fact that I'm the arsonist, and saying I am scum. Without a doubt.
I never really liked when people sounded too certain about their beliefs.
Specially when they don't provide any reasoning for the vote.

I'll post something more substantial as soon as I get home. (which should be in a few hours).

[Ythill]

Congratulations. You can read.

This is not a newbie game. I will gladly explain what it is that proves you are scum when I am ready to hang you. First, I'm going to find your buddies.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright, I haven't caught up yet, but here are my thoughts so far on the remaining players:

RankStranger/hiphop - I had a gut feeling hiphop might be scum, mostly due to him not doing anything that seemed particularly townish plus his attack of Exilon, which looks bad. I haven't seen anything from RankStranger yet, but hiphop seemed scummy.

Exilon - Earlier I had a strong town read on him, and still think he's town, but his few posts after his podium unvote didn't give me the impression that he was looking for somebody else to vote. I am leaning town still though.

Seacore - Agressiveness I see as a town tell, but there were still the points that I brought up about him earlier that made him look suspicious to me. I'm having a lot of trouble getting a good read on him.

Ythill/The Lord Jesus - Ythill revealing himself has changed my impression of TLJ dramatically, as I didn't think TLJ was as experienced. I was having difficulty getting a read on TLJ before Ythill revealed himself, but now that I know Ythill = TLJ, I'm going to have to take another look at TLJ's posts.

Deer - He has contributed hardly anything. I asked him to contribute, he promised he would, but looking at his most recent posts, he seems to have broken his promise. I feel he was active lurking for nearly all of day 1.

DiamondCrash/TheCheshireCat - Gut was telling me TCC was scum yesterday. TCC uses a lot of emoticons which I find suspicious. She said she was conservative with her votes, and I think she only placed a random vote, and showed strong suspicion of a player but didn't vote them. How conservative with her votes is she? TCC is a strong suspect of mine at the moment, but I still need to look at DC's posts.

podium123456 - Can't get a good read off of him. At the moment I'm thinking he's town. Not the strongest read though.

MagnaofIllusion/OpposedForce/GreenDude - GreenDude did some strange things, but never actually explained his behavior. Neutral for now. I still need to see what his replacements have said.

[Wickedestjr]

Ok by me. I don't really have a stance on Super. People have made very good points and justified themselves properly from what I can deprehend. But what Super has been doing still looks a little like "confused townie who didn't grasp the situation yet". So... yeah, bring the L1.

Alright, this looks really bad. You didn't have your vote on SSBF at the time, and you wanted him at L-1, so why didn't

you

vote him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Rather than do a slew of quotes and questions I’m going to give my general overview of the remaining alive players. I completed a full read-through and am going to summarize the points that stick out to me. Consider if I don’t specifically label comments as anti-town / scummy that I find the following anti-town / scummy : Active lurking / lurking, inconsitency in actions, over-reaction and fence-sitting.

Wickedestjr – The opening ‘gambit’ served to get discussion going. Early on does a good job of spreading out his questions and discussion among players. The constant ‘catching up’ posts perhaps. I’m trying to decide my thoughts on his defense of SSBF. Despite Smash’s Cop flip I find Smash’s play to be pretty anti-town. Perhaps his gut read as SSBF as a poor playing newbie is simply an accurate gut read. Usually, however, that sort of departure I see as scum laying the ground-work that they were against a mis-lynch. He held his vote on Seacore the majority of the Day and shift late to Deer for inactivity.

RankStranger / HipHop – I really dislike his first post of substance (HH ISO 2) where he makes a rather ridiculous assumption regarding Exilon’s potential game activity. His worry about labeling players as Town and his exchange with Podium contains more poor jumps in logic (that looking at players you find scummy and not every player is tunneling). I do like his thoughts that the Wicked / Seacore / Deer early debate devolved into repletion. His interaction later in the day with Exilon I feel are genuine. Then RankStranger replaces in. His opinion on TCC is an interesting shift since HH really didn’t address TCC at all. His activity is pretty sparse and I absolutedly hate ISO 3 - “Wow, two night kills?”. Also I don’t like his fence-sitting regarding SSFB – he would prefer to lynch TCC but didn’t build anything of a case other than some vague generalities.

Exilon – The RVS buddying with TCC is odd. AtE in ISO 4 regarding the “fairness” of when people post. His reaction to HH / Podium’s comments was way out of line which I find to be a scum-tell. I’m also not a fan of the ISO 6 where he goes out of his way to specifically say he isn’t hiding anything when no-one asserted anything at all regarding his play. He argues semantics to a degree I’m not comfortable with (‘trying’ to lurk, that 1 vote can hammer when his was the first vote). In general his posts are large but I don’t see significant stances being taken. ISO 13 in particular his take that “scummy content” doesn’t make someone scum I find as a perfect example of not being willing to take a stand. Lastly ISO 22 “If you’re town, I’m sorry” is of pure scum vintage.

Seacore – His early interactions with Wicekd and Deer regarding withholding of info seems consistent with his later questioning of Exilon for not committing. His attacks on SSBF I find well developed. His questioning of TLJ about his clearly affected posting style is also consistent with his approach that secrets / withholding information is anti-town. I’m troubled by the quick shift from my slot to TCC/ DC as the top suspect in Day 2, but that’s about the only negative thing I can see.

Ythill / TLJ – I’m not a big fan of alt-accounts built to use affectations in some sort of gambit form. The language of posts aside (which make a clear read difficult) I like the clear and broad questioning I see from the slot Day 1. His opinion on slots developed with his questions as the day and play went on, which I find Pro-town. I’m not thrilled with the direct identifications of innocent status with no prompting and the line “In case I do not live through the Night” is a classic Mafia line.

Deer – I absolutely hate his early game contributions – one line responses I consider the bane of Town. The multitude of prods combined with his lack of content when he does post say to me active-lurking which I find a scum-tell. Aside from light questioning about why people aren’t voting I see little scum-hunting activity.

Diamond Crash / TCC – The amount of emoticons that TCC used, especially while making serious points, I find a distancing tactic. It allows him to make statements with accusatory or strong points and then backtrack and say “Didn’t you see the smilie? I wasn’t serious” – not Pro-Town. In ISO 18 immediately backs off his first read (HipHop as scum) which is classic fence-sitting. As noted by others didn’t post a vote other than his RVS Deer vote. Diamond Crash replaces in.

Podium – Spreads his questions and response around to many players through the day, which is Pro-Town in my mind. About a week (RL time, of course) moves to a lot of defending against Exilon and esuri. When this is addressed (by Wicked, I believe) he moves back to scum-hunting and questioning. I don’t like in ISO 24 he calls SSBF for stating “I have absolutely nothing to hide from you guys” while he did not (as I can see) question Exilon’s similar statement.

Long story short (too late) – Based on my read-through I’m going to say I think our the majority of the scum group lies among the following players

Wicked, Exilon, Deer and Diamond Crash

Podium and Seacore I have the strongest Town reads on. Ythill I’m going to want to see his normal play before I decide what I think. RankStranger is working hard to undue the town read I had on HipHop.

I’ll come back with some more direct content later today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP -

Wickedestjr – The opening ‘gambit’ served to get discussion going. Early on does a good job of spreading out his questions and discussion among players. The constant ‘catching up’ posts signal to me active-lurking.

[Ythill]

...now that I know Ythill = TLJ, I'm going to have to take another look at TLJ's posts.

Fair enough. Keep in mind that there are some intentional meta differences. For example TLJ random-votes, I do not. For the most part, these things are based on the character, like defending everyone and their grandma, forgiving people easily, etc.

I’m not thrilled with the direct identifications of innocent status with no prompting and the line “In case I do not live through the Night” is a classic Mafia line.

I disagree with the first part. If you meta me, you'll see I give town reads as either alignment. "In case I die," is also something I say as scum or town. It's getting to the point where I die a lot. I'm scary, I guess.

I still haven't finished going through those notes and probably will not for a few hours.

[DiamondCrash]

Do you find Seacore scummy for this? Do you find Seacore scummy for all the things you brought up? None of the things you talked about are even scumtells, as far as I can see. If that's your attempt at a case on Seacore, that's just weak.

It's not, I was just making an observation.

Seriously though, I'll probably discuss TLJ @ length in MD after this game.

I'm interested in hearing more about it.

[Deer]

Do you find Seacore scummy for this? Do you find Seacore scummy for all the things you brought up? None of the things you talked about are even scumtells, as far as I can see. If that's your attempt at a case on Seacore, that's just weak.

It's not, I was just making an observation.

Then what was the point?

Deer – I absolutely hate his early game contributions – one line responses I consider the bane of Town.

I've discussed the one-line responses before. your personal playstyle/preferences differing from mine is not a scumtell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magnaofillusion is, of course, high on the suspect list.... because of greendudes non-existent posting. So, you're definately gonna have to start laying down some words today, to give us something to work with. Sooner better than later.

I’m going to address this at the top. It’s the only time I’m going to address my predecesors since I can’t really explain their actions (or in this case clear lack of actions).

Greendude played poorly and was very inactive(I’m trying to be charitable and kind with my phrasing). I’m not surprised given my experience watching his play in Mini 937 (Mafia on Death Row). The only reason I would even know OF was in the game is that I replaced him. Both efforts are pathetic. If you want to hold that against me I can’t to much about that. That said I don’t play inactively.

This is the last time I’ll address their play.

then two night kills... i dont even know how that's possible. can someone tell me what might have happened?

I note your sig says that you have played almost 900 games of Chat Mafia. Is the concept of a Vigilante or Serial Killer completely foreign to that environment?

I for one enjoy hanging scum, and look forward to this happening.

Who doesn’t? This looks like an attempt to build town-cred that really isn’t needed. The Mafia certainly isn’t going to come out and say something to the effect of “Hanging scum is stupid”.

All we really need to know is there's a vig or SK. Does it matter which one the vig/SK killed and which one the scum killed? If it does, how does it matter? If it doesn't, why even bring it up?

First – why do you outright ignore the possibility that we are in a 2:2:8 setup? I might be unaware but I haven’t seen anything about normal games the precludes that sort of set-up. If there is consider the question null and void. Second - considering who was responsible for each kill can be useful down the line when claims might need to be made and assessed. Of course spending significant amounts of time discussing it isn’t a good use of time at this point.

Ythill revealing himself has changed my impression of TLJ dramatically, as I didn't think TLJ was as experienced.

You didn’t see TLJ as an alt of an experienced player? His grasp of terminology and the manner in which he clearly spread his interactions around screamed ‘familiar with the game’ not ‘newb’ to me.

I disagree with the first part. If you meta me, you'll see I give town reads as either alignment. "In case I die," is also something I say as scum or town. It's getting to the point where I die a lot. I'm scary, I guess.

Both those things, which you do as any alignment, in my mind doesn’t really benefits you as town. The Mafia already knows you aren’t scum and town, if they have an iota of sense, will give them little weight given the meta statements you just made. Which is why I don’t like seeing them from an experience player. Being consistent with your meta for play purposes I can understand. I just think it would be better served not to pepper them at all IMO.

As to you dieing often – that was my initial speculation as to why TLJ appeared in the first place. I’ve gone through a similar circumstance on another site where I’ve played for a year and a half.

I've discussed the one-line responses before. your personal playstyle/preferences differing from mine is not a scumtell.

Do you believe that there is a set number of scumtells, like a bible that can be referenced? If so that’s another playstyle difference we have. My experience has let me to consider posters with a significant proportion of one-liner style posts to be a viable scumtell. You are free to disagree, of course. Also, do you still feel that DC (the TCC slot) is still a top candidate as you stated in ISO 19? If so please elaborate on why. If not why the change in opinion?

OpposedForce in is Greendude's slot. He needs some pressure - both of them lurked all day yesterday.

Is lurking different than active lurking in your mind? Should you also be pressured for what I see as active lurking in Day 1 also (as evidenced by the large number of prods and ‘I’ll catch up’ posts you made)?

Finally as stated at the bottom of Page 14 I’ll be V/LA this weekend for family obligations.