Open 218: Two-fold C9 - Game Over

[Scott Brosius]

Hey all

vote:easjo682

Only person with numbers in name in this game, highly suspicious

[Scott Brosius]

What's wrong with trying to end the RVS?

[Scott Brosius]

1. How long have you been playing Mafia? (inside and outside MS)
2. How would you describe your meta?
3. What's your win/loss record?
4. Favorite setup?
5. What do you think is the biggest scum tell?
6. How do you make your decisions?

1. Register date plus a few months elsewhere before that.

2. I have concise posts.

3. See sig

4. I always enjoy 2 scum group setups.

5. I haven't been scum in over a year so I don't really know. I was scum in my first game (2 scum group game) and when we found scum on the other team D1, he claimed scum and me as his partner. Although I wasn't his partner, I was scum so I had to dig myself out of that hole. Basically I feel like I have never played an untainted scum role.

6. Gut usually.

[Scott Brosius]

Here, will post

[Scott Brosius]

In my opinion little of worth happened yet. Crappy cases on easjo and inhim based off really weak cases got a few votes, but nothing much happened.

@Beefster :
* Could you sum up your case on easjo? After a reread, I still don't understand.

It starts with the "voices in my head" gag just after the RVS. He's trying to prolong it.
He's lying/contradicting himself.
I think there's a good chance that he's scum.

How is there a good chance he is scum? We have gone through 5 pages and maybe 1 of actual discussion. This case is incredibly weak. Also as someone mentioned you also prolonged the RVS/RQS with your questions. This alone isn't inherently scummy, but it is when you call someone else as scummy for it

Unvote
Vote:Beefster

[Scott Brosius]

Scorpion, how long had you been on the sight when you played VI as scum and were you successful?

He did it last game I played with him, I was town. Worked pretty well although his partners distancing was more the reason it was successful. Also a 2 scum group game fwiw.

[Scott Brosius]

I'm still not really compelled by anything in this game. A lot of crap arguments going around and useless quibbling.

[Scott Brosius]

I'm still not really compelled by anything in this game. A lot of crap arguments going around and useless quibbling.

so even though alot of people are finding you suspicious, not suspicious enough to lay down a vote on you, but still to some degree suspicious, you choose to not address them but to make a comment on how there are crap arguements flying around.

unvote

vote: Scott

Holy hell exaggeration. "A lot" of people find me suspicious. Please show me before my post the assortment of people to voiced their concern about me being suspicious.

I still like my vote where it is on Beefster.

I'm not thrilled with inhim's defense of Beefster either. I also think it's a waste of time to look for connections on D1. There are 4 scum in this came who can crosskill, speculating on connections when we don't have a dead body yet is going to be fruitless.

[Scott Brosius]

Hey scott, answer my question.

I did Beefster and inhim are my 2 main scum reads right now.

[Scott Brosius]

I'd like to see some links to Scott's completed games to see if he's this reluctant to say anything as town

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13537
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12108

I can be brief, which leads people to think I'm scummy. There really has been a lack of substance in this game, I know it's D1 and all but it seems worse than usual.

[Scott Brosius]

That's been my major beef with Scott Brosius. Vagueness, poor generalizations, and no major stances.

I have placed a vote on who I think is scum, and I am leaning towards scum on you. Unless you expect me to have nailed down all 4 scum at this point, not sure how my stances aren't "major".

[Scott Brosius]

Scott really only has active lurking and confusing posts against him. If I had more time to actually take a look at him before, I probably wouldn't have put him on my scumlist. There isn't enough evidence against him.

Just noticed some flawed reasoning. Active Lurking is an anti town action. I don't really see how lack of evidence = less scummy. If anything, it should make him look even more scummy.

You be in my head, posting my ideas.

Active lurking is anti-town, anti-town actions are scummy, therefore active-lurking is scummy.

Yawn, care to provide something other than standard mafia platitudes?

[Scott Brosius]

responses in italics.
XS, could you do a little more than ask questions? I know you mean well by it, but it comes off as avoiding scumhunting to me. Maybe a vote will coax you into analysis.

Vote: XScorp

It's been provoking some discussion so I don't really think it's scummy. He has provided some opinions with the questions too.

[Scott Brosius]

Until someone flips, it's not really useful to attempt to find affiliations as it's D1. They are easier to find in retrospect (especially in NKs if one group hits the other). We should be focused on the scummiest player, not attempting to link players together on D1.

For example, you state that you are only "a bit uneasy" about XScorp, but then he is up there with your scum suspects because he welcomed Karma and followed a vote? That is a pretty weak relationship to attempt to determine partnership with.

I think your effort is town play Chevre, I just don't agree with the affiliations.

[Scott Brosius]

I unvoted because I was getting frustrated at how much I sucked at explaining myself. Just because I'm an easy target to attack doesn't mean I'm scum.

Reeks of AtE.

[Scott Brosius]

I've seen Beefster as scum twice, and he's never AtE'd like this before. I don't know what to make of it. Chaos is still scum.

Can you elaborate? How has he acted when put at L-1?

[Scott Brosius]

Well one is ongoing, but we're both dead in it. Actually looking back he never got the chance to claim at L-1, but the hammer happened quick and he was still defending himself til the end. The other was a game I read - he never got pressured and actually played a good scum game.

Maybe that statement above was wrong. I don't know how he acts in danger of a lynch.

Ok, also against site rules to discuss ongoing games even if you both are dead.

[Scott Brosius]

...oh shit.
4 Townies, 4 scum.
This is pretty scary...

I really don't like this reaction. No it's not a great situation, but we are facing 2 scum groups. Lynch one and get some lucky crosskills and we will be fine. I remember you had a coy comment like this in Fire and Ice when you were scum, not exactly the same but something I got the same impression of. I believe it was hammering and saying "hope the game is over" when obviously you knew it wasn't.

Just my initial thought, I will have to reread as my top 2 suspects flipped town.

Vote: XScorpion

[Scott Brosius]

I agree I'm with the chaos is scummy thing too, not laying down a vote yet.

Why not put down a vote? This looks like hesitant scum actions to me.

Unvote
Vote: easjo682

[Scott Brosius]

scott is correct that scorpion is taking things a bit out of perspective. I wouldn't say scum has no reason at all not to try to kill the other scum at night, not to mention that even if they don't try, it might very well happen.
However, the fact that there are 4 scum out of 9 players does mean that there are 4 players out there who don't mind lynching a townie, and thus I'd recommend more caution with our votes. In this light, the rush on chaos seems especially interesting, especially scott's push on eas. The desire not to rush things and not to be quick on the trigger is perfectly justified, and I don't like it how scott is pushing him to vote asap. karma is also apparently up for a quicklynch.
Don't like this at all.

And scott, why aren't you responding to scorpion in any way? You voted him, and then unvoted without saying anything about him.

Well there are 4 players out there who wouldn't mind lynching a townie, but its not as if they are a scum team together. I just don't like the mention by eas that he thinks Chaos is scummy then doesn't do anything about it. Rereading XScorp, there wasn't really any scumtells D1, but I am still weary about his first comment today. He's still on my radar. I still need to reread Chaos.

The scumlists of the 3 dead townies follow (who they had their vote on is first in caps)

Beefster- MR. CHAOS, inHim, Mr. Sandman, Scott
Chevre- KARMA, easjo, Mr. Chaos, Mr. Sandman
inhim- SCOTT, ConfidAnon, Mr. Chaos, Chronopie

So Chaos is on every list, Sandman and myself are on 2 lists.

[Scott Brosius]

scott - of course they aren't on a scum team together, but if player x is a townie, then all of the scum think, "well, he isn't on my team, he might be on the other scumteam or he might be town, and either way I'm all for lynching him". And considering scum can't talk during the day, when it comes to lynching townies, the situation with 4 scum on a single team is fairly similar to the situation with 4 scum on different teams - either way we have all four of them wanting to lynch him asap.

This is the best towntell in the later stage of the game. Of course we need flips from both scum factions, but finding players who BOTH scum groups went after are pretty easy to clear. Naturally we need to find scum first for this to be effective.

[Scott Brosius]

Okay, reread chaos, and I don't find him worthy of a vote.

Isn't it telling that all 3 confirmed dead townies had Chaos on their scumdar though?

[Scott Brosius]

Okay, reread chaos, and I don't find him worthy of a vote.

Isn't it telling that all 3 confirmed dead townies had Chaos on their scumdar though?

Okay, reread chaos, and I don't find him worthy of a vote.

Isn't it telling that all 3 confirmed dead townies had Chaos on their scumdar though?

I agree with this. Genuinely motivated scum hunting detected this, therefore it's likely more reliable than other suggestions and it shouldn't be written off.

This is basically appeal to popularity. I have a brain of my own, thank you very much, and I don't think chaos is especially scummy, and thus I'm not intending to vote for him unless my opinion changes. (And logical fallacies, such as appeal to popularity, aren't what's going to change it.)

It is noted, however, that scott is still applying pressure trying to get people to vote for chaos (using logical fallacies, too), and it is also noted how mr sandman has joined this wonderful, helpful and pro-town trend. (Yes, that was sarcasm)

Obviously you should have your own opinion. I never said you shouldn't. But almost half of this game is scum at this point. If you are going to use someone else's opinion as help in forming your own, we have three untarnished opinions that we know are coming from a town's perspective.

I am pretty null towards Karma. I think the wagon based on his tunneling is a weak argument that is easy for scum to jump on, but I'm not going to call him town either.

easjo has also vanished for the record.

[Scott Brosius]

Wow this game has died. Looks like Chaos hasn't posted anywhere in almost 2 weeks, easjo in about a week. However, Chronopie has been posting in other games and promised a reread 3 days ago.

Unvote
Vote: Chronopie

[Scott Brosius]

I'm here, but really have nothing new to add as this game only has 5 participants.

[Scott Brosius]

I'm fine scrapping it.

[Scott Brosius]

Yeah, I'm here will need to re-read

[Scott Brosius]

@People who aren't replacements: do you agree with Taz that I should cut equinox slack, despite my previous suspicions of Karma? Are you going to vote for the same people you are voting for, even if they were replaced? Opinions, please.

Definitely not.

Chaos and Chrono are still my top 2 suspects.

Vote: drmyshottyizsik

[Scott Brosius]

please unvote guy, at least one. Wait for a counter claim before you kill me.

Wait, wait? You want us to wait for a counter-claim?

[Scott Brosius]

Ugh if there is a town doctor don't counter-claim. Lets lynch him.

[Scott Brosius]

I was basicly saying that if there is no evidence saying I'm not a doctor why not believe me, also why lynch a doctor

Ugh if there is a town doctor don't counter-claim. Lets lynch him.

Seriously you would rather quick lynch a doctor then talk it out and look for the real mafia?

Unvote
Vote: Scott

Sorry that was just too scummy for me.

Why are you apologizing for your vote?

Sure you could be a doctor. There's no way you are town aligned though.

[Scott Brosius]

His botched claim and calling for a counter-claim speaks for itself.

[Scott Brosius]

I've never played a game with so many VIs. Was going to be impossible for town to win with all those characters.

[Scott Brosius]

Why play then? Do you always just give up and provide nothing when you are VT? Obviously it's more entertaining to have night decisions but that's not fair to everyone else in the game.

It's one thing to be new to the game and obviously act scummy because you don't know any better. This doesn't seem to be true in your case.

[Scott Brosius]

Why play then? Do you always just give up and provide nothing when you are VT? Obviously it's more entertaining to have night decisions but that's not fair to everyone else in the game.

It's one thing to be new to the game and obviously act scummy because you don't know any better. This doesn't seem to be true in your case.

It's more that I expected to see a fair bit of Night interaction, instead we had a

Mafia

Angel, and a Town Tracker dead N2.

So it became pure mountainous (from a town point of view), and scum-hunting (Without scum flips) is really, really not my forte. I like to see NAs + Scum flips, then draw conclusions based on said interactions between players and roles...

(I'd never willingly play a pure mountainous game)

I play the same way every (and I mean every) game. My enthusiasm may wax or wane, based on role, but not my play.

--

If we'd switched spots, I probably wouldn't have (basically) flaked half way through.

Fair enough. This setup was kinda lame.

I like 2 scum group setups, but the PRs should be limited to town. At least not a doctor/angel/protecting role. Otherwise you always have an NK-immune player. Actually looking at the PM, it's not clear. If Oddin died, could Sandman save himself? It does not specifically restrict this.

[Scott Brosius]

Agree that scum should not have an every night doctor (x-shot doctor would be a little better but still not great). I like the JK idea over doctor.

Maybe one difference would be after determining what PRs are in the game, instead of random assignment to town/scum, maybe skew it that the roles are 2/3 chance of being town 1/6 wolf 1/6 mafia.

The setup was not the reason we lost the game, we had lurky useless town and got really unlucky with no night cross-kills.