NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[MichelSableheart]

Eight vote count of day 1:

askbob (0):
Chronopie (4):

Unsight, Leafsnail, Timeater, Parama

daniel94581 (1):

Dr. Robotnik

Dr. Robotnik (0):
Dry-fit (0):
foilist13 (0):
Leafsnail (0):
Lowell (0):
LynchMePls (0):
Midnight's Sorrow (0):
nhammen (9):

SerialClergyman, Chronopie, Seraphim, Dry-fit, pman5595, Lowell, vezopiraka, LynchMePls, daniel94581

Parama (1):

Midnight's Sorrow

pman5595 (2):

nhammen, askbob

Pomegranate (0):
Seraphim (0):
SerialClergyman (0):
Sevis (1):

Vi

SGRaaize (0):
Super Smash Bros. Fan (0):
The Goat (0):
Timeater (0):
Unsight (0):
vezopiraka (1):

foilist13

Vi (0):

Not Voting (5):

Pomegranate, The Goat, SGRaaize, Super Smash Bros. Fan, Sevis

With 24 players alive, it takes 13 votes to lynch someone.

---

All players have posted within the last 48 hours, therefore noone will be prodded.

[Leafsnail]

Comprehension Fail.

A roleblocker is a useless role for a townie to have, therefore, I doubt that it's a town role.

Yeah, blocking a scum kill, preventing someone from dying and finding out who is scum, is a totally useless ability to have :/.

[Vi]

Vi = VI?

Here's the game.

I also had a PM conversation about it with him afterwards and I feel he's a solid player, definitely not a VI.

I was referring to being able to

read

VIs, tyvm >.>

Sample post. In this game nhammen seems fairly comfortable and in control of himself, and makes his way to the point when he posts even if he doesn't post very often per se. (Also in this game Cruciare aka Moai Interceptor Cannons is my hero, but that's less important.)

While this game has gone like 8x as fast as that one, I can see how nhammen has been relying on emotion and much more simplistic attempts at scumhunting. I think there are more ?s and !s in 535 than the entire game you linked. And what else I noticed was that nhammen has the dubious achievement of never having been scum, so this kind of personality switch makes sense from that perspective.

About the claim - If you'll excuse me for seeming arrogant, I don't blame the relative newbies who think that all Roleblockers are scum-aligned and that Town Roleblockers are 95% guaranteed to be detrimental; I did that too until I learned better (a Roleblocker death here would mean less than a Roleblocker death later though; Town Roleblockers are better toward endgame).
However, there's another catch. Caught scum that have any idea what they are doing are expected to fakeclaim

anything

.

About what nhammen has said since SerialClergyman posted - He's still not going anywhere. Of all the people he could have voted for more information, he chose pman, who is least likely to gain a wagon (or directly give information). Lots of attempts at reads, none of which are particularly committal. It's scumhunting at its most ineffective.

I'll go with SC.

Unvote: Sevis

Vote: nhammen

(L-3)

---

askbob's recent posts make me wish I was a dayvig.

Sevis is continuing to reinforce my read that he's an experienced player sandbagging himself.

One of the games someone claimed roleblocker at the start of the last day. It turned out to be mafia roleblocker and when they don't say town roleblocker it makes me think mafia roleblocker. It's an important role for the mafia so it's best to lynch it.

I'm not saying that he is mafia roleblocker though.

So you're calling this a policy lynch?

Whether a roleblocker town role is useful or not....its still town? and therefore not scum?

Or have I missed some important memo?

If it actually is a Town Roleblocker, yes~
Noting whether that's the case or not is the important memo you missed~

[The Goat]

Wow. Okay...I honestly don't see the point of going after any of the masons right now. Working under the assumption that there's a cop, that should sort itself out quickly. If the entire thing is a gambit, it's done with an incredible amount of skill, because they REALLY come off looking like they're bumbling around more than anything.

Now...after a reread, I actually thought Time's #482 was funny and appropriate, and don't understand Vi's and Parama's reaction to it. Parama, could you elucidate the "scumslip" you referred to?

The two that come off as scummiest imo are nhammen and chronopie, but the assertion that there cannot be a town roleblocker is just silly.

FOS nhammen

vote chronopie

[vezopiraka]

@vi: you just said nhammen has never been scum. I often saw first time scums claim Roleblocker. One even linked the wiki and tried to convince us it's only a town role and it's never a mafia role.

[vezopiraka]

@goat : you're lynch target number 1 for today or the next day. You promised a PBPA and the only thing you do is write a shity post and jump on the wagon who doesn't endanger your scumbuddy. If the scums keep up the good work we can find all scum in D1.

[Vi]

The two that come off as scummiest imo are nhammen and chronopie, but the assertion that there cannot be a town roleblocker is just silly.

FOS nhammen

vote chronopie

Why Chronopie over nhammen?
(cut: I'm starting to like this vezo character~)

[The Goat]

@goat : you're lynch target number 1 for today or the next day. You promised a PBPA and the only thing you do is write a shity post and jump on the wagon who doesn't endanger your scumbuddy. If the scums keep up the good work we can find all scum in D1.

Interesting case you make there...whatever you are. That is NOT what I promised. Please don't misrepresent my statement. What I stated was "full reread and analysis coming soon." I hadn't expected to be as busy as I am this week, but I did at least reread and summarized my thoughts thus far.

More than anything, I'm amazed that with all the running around like a "chicken with its head cut off" you did, you managed to not vote for yourself.

[The Goat]

The two that come off as scummiest imo are nhammen and chronopie, but the assertion that there cannot be a town roleblocker is just silly.

FOS nhammen

vote chronopie

Why Chronopie over nhammen?
(cut: I'm starting to like this vezo character~)

Because I'm not willing to dismiss nhammen's claim as a non-town role, and see chronopie as a smarter lynch candidate.

Why did you dislike Time's post to the point where you suggest that someone should kill him?

[vezopiraka]

More than anything, I'm amazed that with all the running around like a "chicken with its head cut off" you did, you managed to not vote for yourself.

Did we met before?
Why would I vote myself??????

[SGRaaize]

Talking of scumhunting, why are you still voting for Parama?

My vote is currently on Vezopiraka if you haven't seen the latest vote count.

That's very ironic, because Vezo is precisely the only guy we can't suspect of,

Wait... unless he was a third party, like a serial killer, that would be genius from the mod, lol

MS strikes me as scum. Just sayin'.

He always tends to be too easygoing, distracted and sometimes stupid, but when push comes to shove, he does a good job, at least from what I've seen from him

And I would gladly post links from my previous games where I was confirmed Town if it was in this forum, but I don't like posting other private forums where I am, part of my moral.
Sorry, bud

[Parama]

A roleblocker is not a useful town role. Due to being uninformed, there is a much higher potential of missing a Block, or even Hitting something useful (Such as a cop).

[Parama]

Lol Nhammen is going to use meta.

unvote, vote nhammen

I don't like Chrono's explanation and his post is a total WTF but Nhammen is getting even worse.

[Vi]

Why did you dislike Time's post to the point where you suggest that someone should kill him?

Not only was the post completely fluffy and useless, it would be the third time I've seen someone try to interject humor into their catch-up posts to make it more interesting for them to type. The first two people I've seen do it were scum (SerialClergyman saw the second time, when xRx did it).

By the way, insulting vezo doesn't count as content.

[SerialClergyman]

I've actually done it myself, back in EMerald mafia. I think you could argue that catchups are more boring for scum, because they're essentially faking the mental strain, so they turn to humour.

But to be honest, I'm not convinced it's that reliable a tell. We'd have to kill Spyrex all the time

Yep, nhammen our reads sucked that game, but you're lucid, reasonable, rational and you think a lot about the game. Everyone has bad reads from time to time (mine were awful, as you know) but certain fundamentals are important. And they're also lacking in this game.

[vezopiraka]

@SC: I'm still trying to figure out what you meant in that last post of yours.

[SerialClergyman]

Ok, everyone gets 1 'SPELL THAT OUT' post, so this is yours.

I was replying to Vi's point about humour in catchup posts, and saying that not only can I confirm seeing scum do it, I've donei t myself when I played scum in a previous game.

I then said that although I can confirm a bit of a pattern, I don't think that means we should rush out killing people who write humerous comments.

I then reply to nhammen's objection to me finding him a good player.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Just saying that I'll do an analysis today on everyone, even thought Pomegranate hasn't completely caught up. I may reponse to some posts beforehand, thought.

[nhammen]

And I would gladly post links from my previous games where I was confirmed Town if it was in this forum, but I don't like posting other private forums where I am, part of my moral.
Sorry, bud

Provide links anyways. NOW! You stated that you are always defensive. I want to find out if you were lying.

Lol Nhammen is going to use meta.

unvote, vote nhammen

Why are you worried about me using meta? This triggered some major scumvibes, so I went to his wiki page and saw Mafia 109. Which showed me that:
Parama does have a meta of tunneling.
Hard.
On Town players.
He's worse than charter...

Nhammen is getting even worse.

Explain. Now! You keep saying how great your arguments are, but I have refuted them all, and you have said nothing about this. It has really pissed me off!

Now Serial and Vi have discussed my meta. The closest I can find to what is happening here is Newbie 850. I have only ever been wagoned 3 times, and in each of the other times, there have been arguments that I could defend against, or at least try to. This time, I try defending and NOBODY listens. It is really pissing me off. And I am sorry if my temper is getting the better of me. But the only actually good arguments at all have been Serial's. Not one other player has had good arguments. And I have defended against all as best I could, and Parama's response is "oooh! he's getting worse!" Arg! I need to stop thinking about this case...

Yep, nhammen our reads sucked that game, but you're lucid, reasonable, rational and you think a lot about the game. Everyone has bad reads from time to time (mine were awful, as you know) but certain fundamentals are important. And they're also lacking in this game.

I don't think I had a completely baseless wagon on me in that game though.

My next post will show that I have destroyed Parama's case against me, and he has steadfastly refused to listen.
And SGR,

your

next post had

better

show links to previous games.

[nhammen]

I will ISO all of Parama's posts that discuss my case, and reply to them one-by-one.

First I will start with the initial case:

Nhammen's post has made everything crystal clear.

So defensive after one vote?? And still sitting on that fence. I actually agree with Sevis here.

This is a good point and a good reason to vote someone... and yet you don't.

That same post contains this:

@SGR 370: If I didn't think foilist was scum I would be totally coming after you.

Hey, look a reason... And from a later post:

Oh and as for why I didn't vote SGR? I don't do that stupid vote one player, and then vote another in the same post. It is completely useless, so why do it at all?

Oh, look, another one.

@foilist 328: STOP ROLEFISHING!

vote foilist

@foilist 347: STOP ROLEFISHING!!!!!!

Looking at those two posts, they aren't really rolefishing... at all. More rhetorical questions adding to his points. And regardless that's not a good reason to vote.

Well, I have completely refuted the not rolefishing part

and so had foilist, who stated that it was

. As for not being a good reason, I disagree. At the time I though it was very scummy.

@Chrono 379: Not you too! DO NOT ROLEFISH!

@Chrono 382: STOP ROLEFISHING

FOS: Chrono

This is genuine rolefishing by Chrono, yet you merely FoS.

foilist, SGR, and robotnik are the current scummiest players IMO.

And not Chrono, for doing the same exact thing you accuse foilist of? Note that foilist isn't really rolefishing though you accuse him of it, while Chrono is.

This has been defended here:

The way he is pushing this rolefishing just strikes me as scummy, while chrono's doesn't. I've explained as best I can.

So that was his initial case. Completely defended.

Parama, rhetorical rolefishing is still rolefishing. And if you don't think that was rolefishing, you must be seriously blind. As for why foilist and not chrono? I just figured that foilist's was trying much harder to disguise itself as something else. You claim you read the posts in question and did NOT think they were rolefishing??? I do not understand how you could possibly think that.

Yup. Foilist's questions looked rhetorical (as in, don't answer these) and were lead-ins to his major points, which happen to be quote solid.

Chrono's posts are just blatant rolefishing.
The most damning evidence is a lack of you putting Chrono on your scumlist for the same offense that foilist (your VOTE) committed.

Also, Chrono, it's too late to bus for town-cred since your buddy outed you both.

Same argument, already defended.

If it doesn't look like rolefishing, then it isn't. If you think it looks like rolefishing, you're lying.

Except for the fact that, hey, I'm not lying! And foilist has said it was rolefishing! So wait, doesn't that mean that this statement of yours was a lie? An accidental one, but still a lie.

Also, by your definition of townieness, every power role should claim immediately.

Serious misrep, when I was saying they have nothing to hide, I meant that if they are rolefishing they shouldn't be trying to disguise it as not rolefishing.

They're VOTING for each other now?? What the hell kind of mason team is this?

I will take the 6)answer: Something you didn't talk about.

Seraphim claimed for whatever stupid reason he had.
I'll Unvote
Vote daniel94581

1) Saying it's something I didn't think of isn't good enough. You have to explain what that is, because I'm pretty sure I exhausted the possibilities.

2) If you do have some kind of magic role, why don't your mason mates know about it? The only reason I can think of is because you are a werewolf.

3) Normally I would be extremely annoyed at you for voting without an explanation. You however took it to the next level and not only didn't explain your vote, you voted for your mason mate! You're supposed to KNOW their alignment. If they could be werewolves, then yes he COULD be scum, but that isn't anything close to a reason to vote for him. The probability of him being scum is actually lower for him than your average player.

Reasons. Now.

You don't see any rolefishing in this post? It's all just rhetoric to you?

1) is frustration becausse vezo is being a VI, asking for an explanation on something that doesn't make sense
2) is a good question that doesn't have anything to do with rolefishing
3) has nothing to do with rolefishing in the slightest

1) Asking him to explain his role isn't rolefishing?
2) Rhetorical statement that is still rolefishing.
3) asking for the reasons for a vote, when his target had previously stated that he had role reasons for his vote... hmmm, yeah that has

nothing

to do with rolefishing at all.[/sarcasm]

Next posts explain how it was rolefishing. Then comes this:

The problem with Nhammen's posting now is that he hasn't done anything to disprove my main points.

Except for the fact that I had, and you refused to admit it. You have three points:
1) I baselessly accuse foilist of rolefishing.
Refuted
2) I found foilist to be scum for rolefishing
True, now explain how that is bad
3) I did not find chrono to be scum for rolefishing
True, but I showed why. You refused to respond to this.

The problem with Nhammen's posting now is that he hasn't done anything to disprove my main points.

Your main points are absolute crap!

^This is not a defense^

I ALREADY DEFENDED MYSELF! Grr!

Because I make valid points that you cannot deny, I'm scum? Sorry for scumhunting then.

No, because you make invalid points that I successfully deny, and then you REFUSE TO ACCEPT THIS, I find you scummy.

call my case crap for no reason, and you're just not even trying at all. I don't see how you can't be scum.

I call your case crap for very god reasons which you NEVER RESPOND TO! I am trying very hard and it is like TALKING TO A BRICK WALL! Eventually I get exhausted from doing this for so long.

Midnight is missing the point.

My original reasons =/= BS
My original reasons = easy logic to follow that damns Nhammen because he knows he's caught

Your blatant defense of Nhammen by calling the logic crap without disproving any of it is noted.

Sorry, but
Your original reasons = BS
As I have REPEATEDLY shown.

Then you don't understand my reasons which means you probably aren't reading my posts since I spelled them out pretty clearly.

READ THE THREAD.

No we understand them. We understand that they ARE INVALID. I have SHOWN how they are invalid. And yet, you keep saying how awesome your case is. And not responding to anything I say.

Nhammen is getting even worse.

Provide EVIDENCE please... I swear you are the worst VI I have ever seen... No DeathNote still takes that spot, but you are in second.

[Vi]

I've actually done it myself, back in EMerald mafia. I think you could argue that catchups are more boring for scum, because they're essentially faking the mental strain, so they turn to humour.

But to be honest, I'm not convinced it's that reliable a tell. We'd have to kill Spyrex all the time

I've been tempted to do it, I admit.

I think SpyreX is an exception because
*he always posts like that
*that's what makes him Awesome

---

Just saying that I'll do an analysis today on everyone,

Or you could just post when you do it.

---

But the only actually good arguments at all have been Serial's. Not one other player has had good arguments.

Also, Parama is not worse than charter. And he's certainly not worse than DeathNote.

By the way, there's a saying that defense is useless in Mafia. It's far better to find someone who needs to die more than you do.

Your posts in that Newbie game actually look nothing like your posts ITT. Seriously.

Incidentally, is Parama scum?

[nhammen]

By the way, there's a saying that defense is useless in Mafia. It's far better to find someone who needs to die more than you do.

So

that's

what I have been doing wrong... I see...

Your posts in that Newbie game actually look nothing like your posts ITT. Seriously.

Yeah, I said that was the closest I could find...

Incidentally, is Parama scum?

Unfortunately no. This matches with the Town play I saw in 109. And that was my only case against him. So....

But he's still annoying the heck out of me with this awful tunneling. Nad not responding to my rebuttals. And repeatedly stating how great this case is without backing it up...

[vezopiraka]

What is a VI? I know he's a player but someone said I'm a Vi so I'm confused

[Parama]

Nhammen, I can't be a VI if I'm right.

[nhammen]

Nhammen, I can't be a VI if I'm right.

But if at the end of the game, we find out that you are wrong, can I call you a VI? Can I gloat about it in the end of game part of the thread? Can I push for a policy lynch of you in any future game I play with you? Because I soooo want to do that.

And vezo, VI stands for Village Idiot. And VI is not the name of a player, Vi is.