NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[Vi]

What is a VI? I know he's a player but someone said I'm a Vi so I'm confused

VI is an acronym for Village Idiot.

But if someone tells you you're a Vi, you're

really

doing it wrong

---

nhammen, what about what SerialClergyman said about you? I find that more compelling than what Parama said.

[nhammen]

Here is my response to Serial's posts:

I am so into the nhammen wagon.

1) He uses the old rolefishing accusation style (PYP1 kids??)
2) he's been awful sneaky quiet, hence me calling him out last post.
3) Parama actually rocked the kasbah in his post and is almost certainly town.

unvote, vote nhammen

1) What is bad about me saying rolefishing=scum?
2) I always am quiet. I have a tendancy to only post when I have something useful to say, instead of acting like askbob and posting pure fluff.
3) Explain

This is exactly why nhammen's scum. The defence is 'But he WAS rolefishing' rather than 'But he is likely to be scum'.

That is because Parama said that my accusation was wrong. I was correcting him. And as for not saying he is scum? How about this:

@SGR 370: If I didn't think foilist was scum I would be totally coming after you.

In the original post that Parama attacked me for, I said that foilist was scum. SO what is the problem? If I am not allowed to defend myslef against Parama, then what am I supposed to do here? Notice that Parama's ENTIRE CASE is relating to my accusation of rolefishing.

However your actions suggest an interesting scum strategy that I have never seen used. I mean, in this situation, either Parama finds me scummy for not defending, or you find me scummy for defending. Unfortunately, I find you both Town right now. Otherwise, this would be a brilliant tactic.

I can't tell you how many times scum are the first to overreact to anything that looks like rolefishing (devotress in PYP1, Percy and Baltar in Amished mafia, roflcopter and Yossarian in /inv 4 - these are all in my wiki if you want to check). It's because if they're ever questioned about their suspicions, they don't have to make a case about that person being scum, or show their suspicions - they just need to say 'ROLEFISHING IS BAD, THAT POST IS ROLEFISHING'.

I don't think that nhammen actually believes foilest and chrono are scum because they are rolefishing. Look at his posts - he's telling them to STOP rolefishing, rather than telling the town that he believes he's caught scum.

AND it comes after a suspiciously long absence without him saying much.

OK, so scum have accused people of rolefishing in the past. SO obviously, whenever someone does this, that makes them scum. Gotcha! Except for that previously mentioned line that shows that I considered foilist to be scum. As for suspiciously long absence? Less that 2 days is suspiciously long? If I have to post as often as you want me to, I would have no time left for anything else in my life...

(Note he's still saying IT WAS FISHING not THEY ARE SCUM)

Again, I have to defend against Parama's absolute crap, and that makes me look suspicious to you. My argument was that he is scum BECAUSE he is rolefishing. If the "he is rolefishing" part is false, that makes the whole statement false. So I had to defend against Parama's attacks against that part. Also, notice that he has only once stated that the scum part of the statement was incorrect. All of the rest of his attacks have been on the rolefishing part.

More defense against serial is here and here.

[nhammen]

I already had that all written up, in case you didn't notice

[vezopiraka]

@vi:You edited the page you linked to to say not to confuse you with the VI?

Also. Nhammemn cracked under pressure. He's clearly scum.

[Parama]

Nhammen, I can't be a VI if I'm right.

But if at the end of the game, we find out that you are wrong, can I call you a VI? Can I gloat about it in the end of game part of the thread? Can I push for a policy lynch of you in any future game I play with you? Because I soooo want to do that.

You're sour that I made a good case against you and that you're going to get lynched because of it. I'm not a VI by any standards.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Here is my analysis on well, everyone expect the claimed masons/monks:

askbob

: He's doing fine so far. He hasn't made a super pro-town post that everyone has loved, but he has been putting forward some efforts into the game in scum hunting and his defending of himself is adequate as well. Digging out pman as a lurker is nice as well. I have a slightly pro-town read on him.

Chronopie

: I heard that Chronopie had an reputation for being scummy and I can now see why. He's been doing an fair amount of role-fishing in the game, which sounds like an attempt to derail the topic. Some of his posts are pretty fluffy. He has also not given out many original thoughts in the game, supported by the fact that he was in my bandwagon and nhammen's bandwagon, without giving much of a good reason. Did I mention that he was dodging questions in the game? He's not looking very good in the game, so I'm giving him an fairly scummy read for now.

Dr. Robotnik

: He's been lurking pretty badly. Started off by failing to explain which post of mine was suspicious. He's been parroting a bit in the game as well. Very little scum hunting has been put forth by him and most of his posts were talking about Masons. I'm getting a scummy read from him, he's currently my top suspect.

Dry-fit

: He's not very active in the game, but other then that, he's been doing good. Shown some effort of scum hunting in the game and most of his posts have been good. I'm currently getting a neutral-town read from him.

foilist13

: Like Dry-fit, not very active, but I'm currently liking him. He made a pretty strong case against Vezopiraka and according to his last post, defends himself pretty well. Currently a slight pro-town read.

Leafsnail

: His activity level has been acceptable in this game. He's been doing a fair amount of scum hunting, his mini-case against Parama was solid, and his defense is okay. I'm giving him a slight pro-town read for now.

Lowell

: His posts hasn't been too long, but he has put up some substance in the game. He has original thoughts on the game. However, two things I don't like about him is his low activity level and that he contradicted himself once, saying that he didn't like my bandwagon at the time, but in the exact same post, he said that no matter how hard I try, I will still get lynched. I have a null read on him.

Midnight's Sorrow

: Started out completely useless, which is why I originally had a case on him. However, he hasn't really redeemed himself in my eyes. Some of his posts are too short and could have been added into another post, which almost gives me the feeling that he's active lurking. He's only made a few decent posts that actually really contribute to something. I'm getting a fairly scummy read on him.

nhammen

: The current bandwagon so far. Currently not liking him. His case on folist13 in my opinion, sucks. Part of ISO: 5 were totally useless, specifically the latter part without the quotes. His defense his not been very good and he has been relatively demanding, as shown where he asked Chronopie and askbob to list out six suspects, something that is not easily accomplished, even in a large game like this. His case on Parama isn't that good either. And finally, his claim is ridiculous, as scums can be role-blockers as well. Pretty scummy read if you ask me.

Parama

: Initially my top suspect for having an awful case on me (Read my case on him to see why I was very suspicious of him), he has however, somewhat redeemed himself. Ever since he stopped tunneling me, he started to actually scum hunt, made a very solid case against nhammen and a few other people, and his defense has improved. I'm still slightly suspicious of him, but if he keeps improving, he'll be off my suspect list.

pman5595

: Almost useless throughout the entire game. Only one post from him has been acceptable, the rest doesn't really contribute to anything. Oh and he's been lurking even worse then Dr. Robotnik. I give him a fairly scummy read.

Pomegranate

: I like her so far. Her activity level has been acceptable in this game. She has been doing some form of scum hunting in the game. I don't have much of a read on her right now, but I'll give her a slight pro-town read.

SerialClergyman

: He's a good player as well. He has done some pretty good scum hunting in the game. I do appreciate him having original opinions on the game as well. Considerable town read for now.

Sevis

: Nice to see him posting some substances in the game. I disagree with people on Sevis being scummy, he has been putting forth some effort into the game and did some scum hunting. I have a neutral-town read from him, because despite daily posting, I want to see more of him.

SGRaaize

: I could go either way with him. On the one hand, he claims to be very defensive, which I see as a poor excuse for not scum hunting and he quotes too much, but respond to little. However, he has been relatively active in the game and has done a bit of scum hunting. My read on him is null for now.

The Goat

: So glad he is finally contributing, I was going to call bullshit on him if he remained inactive and failed to provide contents (He almost became one of my suspects). But it's nice to see him finally contributing to the game. Nevertheless, he's getting a neutral-scum read from me.

Timeater

: Posts have been relatively fluffy and he has been almost useless in the game. I mean, his analysis was basically describing what happen in the game with a vote on Chronopie to look like he's scum hunting, but he's not. I have a fairly scummy read, keep your eyes on him.

Unsight

: Pretty active in the game, did some strong scum hunting, and it's nice to see original opinions in the game from him. Also, out of all the people, he/she was the only person with good reasons for voting me. Pretty townie if you ask me.

Vi

: His activity level has been very high in the game. Very strong scum hunting, most of his posts actually contribute to the game, solid defenses, etc. He's also been helpful in a few instances. He currently has the strongest town read from me.

These are my top six suspects from least suspicious to most suspicious:

6): Midnight's Sorrow
5): pman5595
4): Timeater
3): Chronopie
2): nhammen
1): Dr. Robotnik

Vote: Dr. Robotnik

[Timeater]

Not only was the post completely fluffy and useless, it would be the third time I've seen someone try to interject humor into their catch-up posts to make it more interesting for them to type. The first two people I've seen do it were scum (SerialClergyman saw the second time, when xRx did it).

By the way, insulting vezo doesn't count as content.

You know, repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true. Thats not how truth works. So sorry. If you haven't noticed, I tend to "inject" the funny into almost all my posts, so I dont see how your "oh look its one of dem scummers tryin to look amicable so we won't suspect nuttin'" point is valid.

Also, what about those other two? What do they have to do with me? How does what you interpret as their 'injecting humor into catchup posts' have anything to do with me doing it? Is that a tell on me or what?

Epic scumslip, Time.

BUT I STILL WANT NHAMMEN LYNCHED.

This coming from Parama is amusing. I can see how me saying

"Building a case against him (Chronopie) is easy."

might be seen as a scummer "slipping up" in the respect that, if I were scum, I would be so dumb as to blatantly expose my plans to "frame up" Chronopie. I could understand how you would think that,

if you were a toddler.

Read the rest of the paragraph. Puh-lease.

[vezopiraka]

Now obligatory mod gaming from me. Lowell is scum. If anyone knows how I deduced this gets 6 vez points.

[Unsight]

You know... I don't like this nhammen wagon.

Before Parama's post, I had a null, maybe slightly town leaning read on nhammen. He was pretty helpful mentioning the possibility of monks and he was being pretty open with his votes/thoughts. Nothing was really bothering me about his posts.

Then when Parama made his big post, I went and read nhammen's post and foilist13's posts that nhammen called rolefishing. The questions foilist13 was asking could really only satisfactorily be answered by telling more about vezo's role. It really seems like Parama was deliberately ignoring that. If Parama is ignoring some things to push his case then I figure he might be ignoring others as well.

SC mentioned something really smart about how nhamman was calling out the rolefishing but not saying the person was scum. That kind of thing bugs me but it bugs me on the same level as seeing Parama call out one of Chronopie's posts as a scumslip, vote him, and then go back to nhammen justifying it with "lol he's using meta." If I see a genuine scumslip, I'm really not inclined to move my vote away so easily so seeing Parama change back to nhammen for seemingly much flimsier reasoning is worrisome. Looks more like wagon testing than scum hunting to me. SC may be onto something, but Parama's activity just makes the nhammen wagon feel dirty to me.

That said, I'm pretty happy with my vote on Chronopie. He goes from hinting that a mason could be a cop to mentioning that a mason could be werewolf. The second part wouldn't have been problematic if not for the first part. The first part doesn't really have a pro-town explanation. What would make sense to me is if Chronopie is a werewolf, wants the masons dead, and is trying to get the mafia to kill the masons so his team doesn't have to. If you look at his actions that way then the second post takes on an entirely new meaning.

FWIW, that's where I am right now.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

You know... I don't like this nhammen wagon.

I actually do agree with you on this. Sure nhammen is my 2nd suspect, but he at least seems to be trying in this games, while Dr. Robotnik doesn't seems to care about the game at all, hence why Dr. Robotnik is my top suspect now.

I also don't want to put nhammen at L-1 this early in the game. The bandwagon went way too fast on him and went way too hard on him and if he gets lynched this early and flip town, I don't want to be responsible for putting him at that position.

I'm going to give nhammen the chance to revive himself. If he fails to do so and becomes my top suspect when it's nearing deadline, then I might vote him, but not now.

[Lowell]

Now obligatory mod gaming from me. Lowell is scum.

If anyone knows how I deduced this gets 6 vez points.

Because it takes one to know one?

[Midnight's Sorrow]

Also. Nhammemn cracked under pressure. He's clearly scum.

Cracking under pressure =/= Scum

Sorry.~

[Dry-fit]

No, I was saying you were fence-sitting about the robotnik case. On the one hand, the wagon is scummy (case is bad) on the other he is scummy (case is good).

Oh. Well, actually, the case on Robotnik really wan't anything. The first two players on the wagon didn't really make a case at all. And yet several players jumped on stating they thought the wagon was good. That's what was suspicious. The reason I thought Robotnik was scummy was because of his response. Not the (nonexistent) case.

Right now I think Chrono is more likely than nhammen to be scum. He seems way to eager for an nhammen lynch

A roleblocker is not a useful town role. Due to being uninformed, there is a much higher potential of missing a Block, or even Hitting something useful (Such as a cop).

Firstly this is just wrong. A town roleblocker can potentially have the power of a cop and doc combined. See viewtopic.php?t=13353&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 for an example.
Second, Chronopie really seems to want nhammen lynched. I think it could be because he wants a powerrole dead.

Unvote. Vote: Chronopie

[SGRaaize]

And I would gladly post links from my previous games where I was confirmed Town if it was in this forum, but I don't like posting other private forums where I am, part of my moral.
Sorry, bud

Provide links anyways. NOW! You stated that you are always defensive. I want to find out if you were lying.

First of all, calm down, you hardly hold any authority over me here, there are many things I don't mind doing to prove my innocence, posting links for private forums on a forum as big as this just to show I like playing defensively is not in the list.

You know... I don't like this nhammen wagon.

Before Parama's post, I had a null, maybe slightly town leaning read on nhammen. He was pretty helpful mentioning the possibility of monks and he was being pretty open with his votes/thoughts. Nothing was really bothering me about his posts.

Then when Parama made his big post, I went and read nhammen's post and foilist13's posts that nhammen called rolefishing. The questions foilist13 was asking could really only satisfactorily be answered by telling more about vezo's role. It really seems like Parama was deliberately ignoring that. If Parama is ignoring some things to push his case then I figure he might be ignoring others as well.

SC mentioned something really smart about how nhamman was calling out the rolefishing but not saying the person was scum. That kind of thing bugs me but it bugs me on the same level as seeing Parama call out one of Chronopie's posts as a scumslip, vote him, and then go back to nhammen justifying it with "lol he's using meta." If I see a genuine scumslip, I'm really not inclined to move my vote away so easily so seeing Parama change back to nhammen for seemingly much flimsier reasoning is worrisome. Looks more like wagon testing than scum hunting to me. SC may be onto something, but Parama's activity just makes the nhammen wagon feel dirty to me.

That said, I'm pretty happy with my vote on Chronopie. He goes from hinting that a mason could be a cop to mentioning that a mason could be werewolf. The second part wouldn't have been problematic if not for the first part. The first part doesn't really have a pro-town explanation. What would make sense to me is if Chronopie is a werewolf, wants the masons dead, and is trying to get the mafia to kill the masons so his team doesn't have to. If you look at his actions that way then the second post takes on an entirely new meaning.

FWIW, that's where I am right now.

I'm not following with your Chronopie votelynch.
He said that its true that a cop could be among the masons, because its randomized on any non-mafia user.
He then said that its true that a werewolf could be among the masons, because its randomized on any non-mafia user.

...
Yeah... I'm not sure if I follow, maybe I'm just being a dumbass

[Vi]

Not only was the post completely fluffy and useless, it would be the third time I've seen someone try to interject humor into their catch-up posts to make it more interesting for them to type. The first two people I've seen do it were scum (SerialClergyman saw the second time, when xRx did it).

By the way, insulting vezo doesn't count as content.

You know, repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true. Thats not how truth works. So sorry. If you haven't noticed, I tend to "inject" the funny into almost all my posts, so I dont see how your "oh look its one of dem scummers tryin to look amicable so we won't suspect nuttin'" point is valid.

Also, what about those other two? What do they have to do with me? How does what you interpret as their 'injecting humor into catchup posts' have anything to do with me doing it? Is that a tell on me or what?

Oh, don't worry about me forgetting to consider you as a special exception.
I *cough* remember your play before you left, and if I didn't I know a couple of people who will certainly remember your play in Dwarf Fortress Mafia.

With that said, kuribo and to a lesser extent xRECKONERx weren't that different from you personality-wise, so etc..

While I'm not sure what you mean about me repeating things, I'm sure nobody thinks you're amicable either. Or not suspicious if they've considered it.

---

Now obligatory mod gaming from me. Lowell is scum. If anyone knows how I deduced this gets 6 vez points.

Or you could tell us...

Now obligatory mod gaming from me.

Lowell is scum. If anyone knows how I deduced this

gets 6 vez points.

Because it takes one to know one?

So you're saying you're scum because vezo is scum?

---

I remember getting a Town read from Chronopie, but I'm not really sure where looking at him in isolation. And I'm getting cold feet on nhammen again. Let's try this again.

Unvote: nhammen

Vote: Sevis

(L-12)

Bonus!
I will shamelessly jump onto the largest wagon formed on anyone (except maybe Unsight) on the Chronopie wagon (mostly because those are the people I don't trust individually, not so much because they're on the wagon).

[MichelSableheart]

Ninth vote count of day 1:

askbob (0):
Chronopie (5):

Unsight, Leafsnail, Timeater, The Goat, Dry-fit

daniel94581 (1):

Dr. Robotnik

Dr. Robotnik (1):

Super Smash Bros. Fan

Dry-fit (0):
foilist13 (0):
Leafsnail (0):
Lowell (0):
LynchMePls (0):
Midnight's Sorrow (0):
nhammen (9):

SerialClergyman, Chronopie, Seraphim, pman5595, Lowell, vezopiraka, LynchMePls, daniel94581, Parama

Parama (1):

Midnight's Sorrow

pman5595 (2):

nhammen, askbob

Pomegranate (0):
Seraphim (0):
SerialClergyman (0):
Sevis (1):

Vi

SGRaaize (0):
Super Smash Bros. Fan (0):
The Goat (0):
Timeater (0):
Unsight (0):
vezopiraka (1):

foilist13

Vi (0):

Not Voting (3):

Pomegranate, SGRaaize, Sevis

With 24 players alive, it takes 13 votes to lynch someone.

---

All players have posted within the last 48 hours, therefore noone will be prodded.

[Vi]

So Leafsnail is totally posting elsewhere onsite, thus making me glad he's in the umbrella of people I would shamelessly jump on

[Leafsnail]

he's in the umbrella of people I would shamelessly jump on

Steady on, I barely know ya .

And... sometimes I prefer to gather my thoughts before posting. Specifically, when it's 1:30 in the morning.

In other news, you're on the same scumteam as chronopie. Either that or you've suffered a stroke within the last 24 hours. I guess you're hoping your ranknames will allow you to get away with this ridiculous behaviour.

Now, if you think I'm scum for doing this, I'd like you to vote me now and give me your reasons for distrusting me. Y'know, vote someone who you think is scum rather than switching back and forth between an easy newb lynch and your backup vote.

[LimMePls]

@Leafsnail I kinda agree, I'm not convinced Vi is town.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@LynchMePls: I do think Vi is townie, but it is a bit suspicious that he would shamelessly jump on Leafsnail, even thought he has been more pro-town then pro-scum. Should have commented on that on my analysis.

[Midnight's Sorrow]

Here's a quick question for you guys.

Why is there an assumption that the major contributors are less scummy then those that don't? I'm curious to know what that has anything to do with being scummy besides just needing to post more?

[Vi]

he's in the umbrella of people I would shamelessly jump on

Steady on, I barely know ya .

And... sometimes I prefer to gather my thoughts before posting. Specifically, when it's 1:30 in the morning.

In other news, you're on the same scumteam as chronopie. Either that or you've suffered a stroke within the last 24 hours. I guess you're hoping your ranknames will allow you to get away with this ridiculous behaviour.

Now, if you think I'm scum for doing this, I'd like you to vote me now and give me your reasons for distrusting me. Y'know, vote someone who you think is scum rather than switching back and forth between an easy newb lynch and your backup vote.

"Gathering your thoughts" only involves responding when your name is called?

No comment on the awards beneath my name. I don't use them to claim that I'm right or that my word has more weight. As for having a stroke, that's just me being me.

I've already mentioned how bad it looks that after missing the nhammen wagon time-wise, you generically tut-tutted it while moving onto the obvious following wagon. You've said (since it became cool to dislike the hamwagon) that you had a newbTown read on nhammen. You don't bother mentioning why you think that or why the arguments are weak, just that the wagon is dumb.
Now really. On one side we have a number of fairly decent arguments for him being scum, and on the other side... your self-righteous word. Which one do you think I'm more likely to consider accurate? Never mind the discussion with SerialClergyman in broad daylight about the merits of the accusations. Never mind that I've left the wagon before and after that discussion because I got an honest-Town read from his posts.

Which nicely leads to the other point in this most recent post of yours. I call you out for posting elsewhere onsite - and you have been posting elsewhere, in multiple places over the course of the last several hours - and you tell me that you're gathering thoughts. But apparently your thoughts only seem to include attacking the person bringing to light that you've been hanging around the site all night. I don't think this is an honest attack at all, especially since your mention of me going back and forth between nhammen and Sevis has already been laid out plainly inthread whereas your initial complaint about the wagon was concerned with people who joined the wagon for no reason at all. Those thoughts you were preparing were not only narrow, they were shallow as well.

Incidentally, there are a couple of people who can readily vouch that vote-hopping is normal for me.

Since Sevis-scum doesn't seem very popular today I'll go ahead and give you what you asked for.
'Not sure if you as scum would go out of your way to stir up trouble like this, but I

did

say earlier that you were on the hatelist, so~

Unvote: Sevis

Vote: Leafsnail

(L-12)

---

Why is there an assumption that the major contributors are less scummy then those that don't? I'm curious to know what that has anything to do with being scummy besides just needing to post more?

The major contributors, the ones doing the heavy lifting and actual thought, are usually Town.
The ones who are secondary in this regard are more likely scum.
Lurkers, n00bs, VIs, renegades, rebels, and rogues are mixed.

[foilist13]

Jesus, I'm gone one day and I get to read 5+ pages to catch up. Ok, 1st,

unvote.

If vezo is town the the mafia have to deal with him, and he's no longer our problem. That unfortunately does not negate the fact that he is completely useless.

Well, I have completely refuted the not rolefishing part and so had foilist, who stated that it was. As for not being a good reason, I disagree. At the time I though it was very scummy.

Not so fast there mate. I said it was rolefishing

after

the post you quoted, not before. Stop trying to misrepresent him.

Except for the fact that, hey, I'm not lying! And foilist has said it was rolefishing! So wait, doesn't that mean that this statement of yours was a lie? An accidental one, but still a lie.

Here too.

nhammen is throwing his weight around at whatever points he can think of to get himself off the hook. Pro-town behavior? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Is Parama's case on him actually good? Not a chance in hell.

@Parama: Your case begins here, in ISO #28.

Wait.

Nhammen's post has made everything crystal clear.

So defensive after one vote?? And still sitting on that fence. I actually agree with Sevis here.

This is a good point and a good reason to vote someone... and yet you don't.

@foilist 328: STOP ROLEFISHING!
vote foilist

@foilist 347: STOP ROLEFISHING!!!!!!

Looking at those two posts, they aren't really rolefishing... at all. More rhetorical questions adding to his points. And regardless that's not a good reason to vote.

@Chrono 379: Not you too! DO NOT ROLEFISH!

@Chrono 382: STOP ROLEFISHING
FOS: Chrono

This is genuine rolefishing by Chrono, yet you merely FoS.

foilist, SGR, and robotnik are the current scummiest players IMO.

And not Chrono, for doing the same exact thing you accuse foilist of? Note that foilist isn't really rolefishing though you accuse him of it, while Chrono is.

Guys, I've caught scumbuddies here, can we lynch them?
unvote
Vote: Nhammen
Super Mega HoS: Chronopie
HoS: SGRaaize
HoS: SSBF
FoS: Dr. Robotnik

If there is not a nhammen lynch in the next 24 hours I'm going to scream. Nhammen's post has caught 2 scum.

1) Ok, first quote is a semi-decent point, but not worth anything like a lynch on. Unfortunately it's your best one.

2)Clearly I was trying to get him to explain his role. I don't really understand how you didn't see that, but I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt. Nhammen was wrong in thinking that what I was doing was inherently scummy. I do not however need to defend my vezo case here.

3) FoS is the logical thing to do if you're already voting someone else. This is not scummy.

So you'r actual case amounts to the fact that he finds me scummier than chronopie even though we were both rolefishing.

I was asking for a role claim and actually wanted it.

Chronopie did little more than speculation. Can both be considered rolefishing? Yes. Was his equally egregious? No.

nhammen was voting on the basis that asking for a role claim this early in the game was a scum move. If you take that as a given, his case was legitimate. It was pointed out to him that he was wrong, and he dropped the case. Scum move? I think not.

Your initial case is therefore illegitimate and can therefore be discounted.

[quote="Parama]

Parama, rhetorical rolefishing is still rolefishing. And if you don't think that was rolefishing, you must be seriously blind. As for why foilist and not chrono? I just figured that foilist's was trying much harder to disguise itself as something else. You claim you read the posts in question and did NOT think they were rolefishing??? I do not understand how you could possibly think that.

Yup. Foilist's questions looked rhetorical (as in, don't answer these) and were lead-ins to his major points, which happen to be quote solid.

Chrono's posts are just blatant rolefishing.
The most damning evidence is a lack of you putting Chrono on your scumlist for the same offense that foilist (your VOTE) committed.

Also, Chrono, it's too late to bus for town-cred since your buddy outed you both.

My questions were my major points. How could he possibly defend himself from them without claiming? Those were not rhetorical at all.

As I said before, Chrono's role searching was far more conservative than mine. I wanted to know his role. nhammen thought that was scummy. The fact that he thought Chronopie's posts were more legitimate is not at all implausible.

So you think that asking what role he could possibly have that would explain these actions is NOT rolefishing? Or did you just read this in some other language?

Hidden rolefishing is scummier than blatant rolefishing. If they are Town, they have NOTHING TO HIDE.

If it doesn't look like rolefishing, then it isn't. If you think it looks like rolefishing, you're lying.

Also, by your definition of townieness, every power role should claim immediately.

1) This was a ridiculous comment. However, this post by nhammen is the first one to lend some credibility to your case through no fault of your own. He does say that hidden rolefishing is scummier than blatant rolefishing. I was blatant rolefishing, Chronopie was hidden scumfishing (presumably).

2) His defenition of towniness was refering to the scum hunter, not the one being hunted. One has nothing to hide as in "if you want to rolefish, do it openly."

1) Saying it's something I didn't think of isn't good enough. You have to explain what that is, because I'm pretty sure I exhausted the possibilities.

2) If you do have some kind of magic role, why don't your mason mates know about it? The only reason I can think of is because you are a werewolf.

3) Normally I would be extremely annoyed at you for voting without an explanation. You however took it to the next level and not only didn't explain your vote, you voted for your mason mate! You're supposed to KNOW their alignment. If they could be werewolves, then yes he COULD be scum, but that isn't anything close to a reason to vote for him. The probability of him being scum is actually lower for him than your average player.

1) is frustration becausse vezo is being a VI, asking for an explanation on something that doesn't make sense
2) is a good question that doesn't have anything to do with rolefishing
3) has nothing to do with rolefishing in the slightest

1) This was not asked in frustration. I legitimately wanted the answer.
2) This is relevant to his role, and claiming would be the only real way of defending himself from it.
3) This clearly is relevant to his being a mason, which is role information.

So now after nhammen points out the ridiculousness, you come up with this.

The problem with Nhammen's posting now is that he hasn't done anything to disprove my main points.

This is called caught scum.

Clearly you didn't have any main points, so what did you expect him to defend against exactly?

Parama wrote:
The problem with Nhammen's posting now is that he hasn't done anything to disprove my main points.

Your main points are absolute crap!

^This is not a defense^

TBQH I don't give a damn about your claim, since that's equally likely a scum role as it is town, and I believe you to be scum aside from it.

1) No it is not a defense, it is a statement. A legitimate one incidentally.

2) Eh, maybe.

The wagon on me HAS to be scum driven. There is no way there could be this many mistakes unless there is a scum pushing them. I hope that Parama is scum.

Because I make valid points that you cannot deny, I'm scum? Sorry for scumhunting then.
Note that your argument is even weaker since there are two scumteams thus scum would want to find each other. I'm sure there's scum on the wagon, but it could be one scumgroup riding the wagon of another. And tbh that's fine, since it leads to a scumlynch. The goal of this game is to get the scum to lynch each other more than anything.
So obviously, you're just disguising OMGUS-esque logic as something that's certain not true. You call me scum for no reason, call my case crap for no reason, and you're just not even trying at all. I don't see how you can't be scum.

1) You haven't made any valid points.

2) His argument hasn't changed, he's just taken a crack at finding scum.

3) Yes it would lead to a scum lynch. That means that we can assume there will be scum on EVERY wagon until the end. One scum team will always be able to lynch someone who is not their own. This is a helpful legitimate point, not a weaksauce defense.

I love the people who are saying I "redeemed" myself when I never did anything scummy in the first place.

What

did

you do?

Epic scumslip, Time.

BUT I STILL WANT NHAMMEN LYNCHED.

...what? An epic scumslip would far outweigh everything you've brought up about nhammen even if it was legitimate.

unvote, vote: nhammen

I think we're forgetting why we're here, guys.
Less pointless talk, more lynching of obvious scum please.

Now you're just tunneling.

Midnight is missing the point.

My original reasons =/= BS
My original reasons = easy logic to follow that damns Nhammen because he knows he's caught

Your blatant defense of Nhammen by calling the logic crap without disproving any of it is noted.

You're lack of meaningful defense for your crap-case is noted.

Then you don't understand my reasons which means you probably aren't reading my posts since I spelled them out pretty clearly.

READ THE THREAD.

To quote you: ^This is not a defense^

A roleblocker is not a useful town role. Due to being uninformed, there is a much higher potential of missing a Block, or even Hitting something useful (Such as a cop).

Again.

Y'know what. Screw it. unvote, vote: Chronopie
Guys I think he scumslipped right here.

So this scum slip was enough to deter you from your nhammen case, but the epic one earlier was not? Interesting.

Lol Nhammen is going to use meta.
unvote, vote nhammen

I don't like Chrono's explanation and his post is a total WTF but Nhammen is getting even worse.

...so now nhammen's alleged degeneration of play is enough to outweigh Chronopie's scumslip? Even though you don't like Chronopie's defense?

Now you're somehow managing to tunnel nhammen AND wagon hop at the same time. This is impressive.

Nhammen, I can't be a VI if I'm right.

Yes you can.

Nhammen, I can't be a VI if I'm right.

But if at the end of the game, we find out that you are wrong, can I call you a VI? Can I gloat about it in the end of game part of the thread? Can I push for a policy lynch of you in any future game I play with you? Because I soooo want to do that.

You're sour that I made a good case against you and that you're going to get lynched because of it. I'm not a VI by any standards.

You didn't make a good case, and you're a VI by mine.

This concludes your posts. Based on what you've presented I see no reason whatsoever to vote nhammen. I actually see a lot more reason to vote you. However I'm going to reserve my vote for now until I've had a chance to analyze some of the other players.

[pman5595]

HOLY CRAP PAGES! I'll try to catch up as soon as possible.

[Unsight]

That said, I'm pretty happy with my vote on Chronopie. He goes from hinting that a mason could be a cop to mentioning that a mason could be werewolf. The second part wouldn't have been problematic if not for the first part. The first part doesn't really have a pro-town explanation. What would make sense to me is if Chronopie is a werewolf, wants the masons dead, and is trying to get the mafia to kill the masons so his team doesn't have to. If you look at his actions that way then the second post takes on an entirely new meaning.

FWIW, that's where I am right now.

I'm not following with your Chronopie votelynch.
He said that its true that a cop could be among the masons, because its randomized on any non-mafia user.
He then said that its true that a werewolf could be among the masons, because its randomized on any non-mafia user.

...
Yeah... I'm not sure if I follow, maybe I'm just being a dumbass

I don't see the purpose of the first part. Reads more as "Oh by the way, a mason could be a cop." Doesn't seem good at all to draw even more attention to them and he did it twice.

Still, I'll reread the thread tomorrow after a good night's sleep and make sure I think I'm still on the right track.