NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[Pomegranate]

There

could

be one, I just find it highly unlikely that there

is

one.

[Pomegranate]

Pomegranate, could you link to a two-mafia game where there was roleblocker scum? Thanks in advance :3

Sure I can.

Note DeathNote, American Mafia Roleblocker, IIRC. There were two scum factions- Sicilian Mafia and American Mafia.

[foilist13]

I actually really like nacho's post.

@SerialClergyman: Please link me to such a game so that I can correct my inexperience. In the meantime I strongly believe what SSBF is attempting is unbelievably anti-town, and you dropping everything and joining up so that you get the "confirmed town" status in unbelievably scummy. Why would scum even bother killing you? They can just kill the rest of them and single out you or someone else and say "hey, why isn't he dead yet?"

1) You'll probably all be dead before you manage to lynch all the scum, unless you get 7+ people as confirmed town. Good luck.

2) Trusting people is the worst possible idea in a game like this. Once you start trusting, you stop close reading. Once that happens, any scum good enough to get themselves on this list will have an easy ride for the next few days until Lylo, or close to it.

3) And most importantly: Do you really think that SSBF is confirmed town, or is it because he came up with this? I find it incredibly convenient that he suddenly gets to be confirmed town even though he is on several people's scum lists. That applies to you as well.

4) Joining this group in the first place is a null tell. If you're scum it's protection, if you're town you might get killed.

[Midnight's Sorrow]

Foilist's posts continue to make me wonder why there is even still a vote on him...

[foilist13]

There is a scum roleblocker in most newbie games. I've SE'd enough of them to know it happens more often than not.

The reason they are usually scum roles is that they are not very useful to the town. Scum roles are usually limited to goon, roleblocker, and godfather. The godfather is not a power role in the sense that he has nigh actions, he just has a collection of immunities. The roleblocker could himself be roleblocked, but that would be an odd situation. Or the roleblocker could hit the one of three scum sending in the kill which is a shot in the dark.

They end up being a liability to the town as they can easily hit the cop or the doc, or jail keeper, or whatever else the town happens to have. I've only ever seen someone claim town roleblocker, and ended up being scum.

Can someone provide a link to a game where there was a town roleblocker?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Yeah, Nachomamma8's post was fantastic:

Unvote, Vote: Dr. Robotnik

[Nachomamma8]

Town Roleblocker Nacho.

A more normal example.

Pom, thanks for the links. I guess I'm just a little biased; I haven't seen a game with two mafia that HASN'T had a town roleblocker...

[MichelSableheart]

SpyreX will be replacing animorpherv1.

We finally have a full game again!

Vote count and activity check coming up shortly.

[SpyreX]

What up game I'll be catching up tomorrow since it done be the sleepy times BUT real quicklike synopsis?

[Nachomamma8]

Vezo is confirmed town (monk + mason: Monks can't be mafia, Masons can't be werewolves, Vezo is both).

Nhammen is claimed town roleblocker from being wagoned day 1, claimed to RB Socrates on Night 1 and thinks he's scum from one kill.

Wagons on foilist for god-knows what, wagon on Dr. Robo thanks to an agreement between SSBF and I, wagon on nhammen because he's scum, and wagon on MS because he's "taunting newbie scum" (which doesn't make sense to me, but w/e).

Ya, that's what I can do for ya right now.

[MichelSableheart]

Twelfth vote count of day 2.

askbob (1):

nhammen

Dr. Robotnik (3):

Nachomamma8, askbob, Super Smash Bros. Fan

Dry-fit (0):
Faraday (0):
foilist13 (2):

Parama, Leafsnail

Leafsnail (1):

Timeater

Lowell (0):
LynchMePls (0):
Midnight's Sorrow (1):

Unsight

Nachomamma8 (0):
nhammen (5):

SerialClergyman, Dry-fit, Dr. Robotnik, Shrinehme, vezopiraka

Nikanor (0):
Parama (1):

foilist13

Pomegranate (0):
SerialClergyman (0):
Shrinehme (4):

Pomegranate, Socrates, Midnight's Sorrow, LynchMePls

Socrates (3):

Faraday, SpyreX, Lowell

SpyreX (0):
Super Smash Bros. Fan (0):
Timeater (0):
Unsight (0):
vezopiraka (0):

Not Voting (1):

Nikanor

With 22 players alive, it takes 12 votes to lynch someone.

---

Faraday has announced limited access.

Parama has announced V/LA from the 6th till the 9th of june.

No prods need to be issued, because everyone else posted within the last 48 hours.

[SpyreX]

Up to page 13 and me and my compadres are outed AND slappywag masons instead of fat ones?

Awesome.

While I'm still reading why isn't Goat dead? (I may fall asleep here soon but)

[SerialClergyman]

Nacho, could you expand on your thoughts behind nhammen? When you were defending the town roleblocker concept I got the feeling you were pro-nhammen but you recently suggest he's scum in your summary to Spy.

[nhammen]

Oh, wow, I think it's been 48 hours since my last post... How did this happen? Catching up... Need to procrastinate less. Will make a post in approx 2 hours. Maybe a little more...

[vezopiraka]

Why is nobody dead yet?
I can't stand wagons being made for everyone who comes up scummy. We had enough wagons let's lynch someone. I still say nhammen or socrates is the way to go.

[LimMePls]

Why would scum even bother killing you? They can just kill the rest of them and single out you or someone else and say "hey, why isn't he dead yet?"

Can we please not give the scum ideas?

In unrelated news:

Unvote
Vote: Dr. Robotnik

Nacho's case was made of win.

[SerialClergyman]

I probably owe you an apology, foilest, I didn't mean to be all arrogant about your play, it was early in the morning and i was feeling bitchy.

I just come across your objection every single game I play and I've never found it to be true, that's all. And it' rarely the players I really respect who make it.

Why would scum even bother killing you? They can just kill the rest of them and single out you or someone else and say "hey, why isn't he dead yet?"

This is like scum behaviour 101, so it's easily countered. If people start loudly saying ho, ho! who is this person left alive?? and then getting me lynched, my flip brings the town right back to them. Breaking up a town group is seriously hard as scum, you have a good chance of outing yourself even after one or more mislynches. I learned that in Emerald Mafia (in my wiki) as scum, where a protown group formed and almost won the game via PoE despite some great play on our behalf.

This is iam's dollhouse game where the last 3 lynches were essentially 'lynch anyone but Serial, farside or elvis.' Setting up that group won us the game and it meant the scum, who played really well, were totally denied a chance to win.

mith's /inv 4 is another pretty good example of just using a pro-town block of players to work through the scum's fakeclaim chain and crack it.

I've played games where all I do is townhunt early in the game and literally am happy to lynch anyone other than 5 or so people I have townreads on, and quite a few of them have been successful. If you think back to your town wins, I'm sure you'll find most of them were more successful when the town worked together and displayed some trust, NOT (counter to intuition) when the town were paranoid and watching their backs all the time. Being skeptical is good, and questioning your reads is also good but hell - this is a game where even the scum want to find scum! So chances are someone's suspicions are truly their suspicions. It's time to work with that and see where we can go.

By the way, vezo, I'm about 1,000,000% behind you.

[nhammen]

Yes, I do think he is saying that, and I do think it is wrong. Want to see why I think he is saying that?

I refuse to throw away a night kill as possible evidence because of WIFOM tendencies.

And its equally bad logic to not think Vi NK=/=Sevis scum. And no; I did not immediately leap on Sevis.

First one does look like he is saving scum killed Vi cuz sevis is scum. Second one looks perfectly reasonable. But if you look at his first post on the subject and most of his other posts, he is not saying that the incriminating evidence is the reason for the NK, but rather the read from the NK victim.

How much more immediate can it get than his first post of that day? It was even the 5th overall post of the day. Why not ask some probing questions of Sevis? Why not discuss the case from the day before? Once it's clear we're getting a Sevis replacement, why not wait to hear from Sevis replacement? If all he is going off is the case from D1, then why wasn't he with us on D1? Why wait for the NK and the WIFOM to be convinced? Both MS' play and his WORDS say that he is basing his case on the Vi NK.

No. I saw it as he is basing his read on the fact that Vi is CONFIRMED TOWN now that he is dead, so Vi's reads can be given more weight. Or maybe I'm seeing his case wrong.

Vote: Nhammen

Really? Absolutely no analysis at all? You could at least say hello, the experience you've had with the game, and why you think nhammen is scummy.

I agree with this... Agreeing with my top scum suspect. This makes me feel dirty...

In other news I stumbled across this gem while I was isoing Sevis:

Interesting finds, both nhammen and Parama. Now that I re-read foilist's posts, he does seem to be rolefishing quite a bit: previously, I took this for him just trying to make sense of the game. I still don't get the feeling that he's scum, but I'm not too sure just yet. Vezo really is contributing far less to the game than he could be, hinting at the role without any clarification only helps scum, as far as I can see.

The speed with which Chronopie jumped on the nhammen wagon does surprise me -- he seems to be hoping to put the focus away from him and thus be forgotten. This doesn't look like very pro-town play to me. I also have to agree that his attempts at rolefishing would cause more harm if they were successful (I see LMP's role and knowledge to currently be of more importance than vezo's).

FOS: Chronopie

Unvote; Vote: nhammen

Anyone up for a shrinehime wagon?

unvote, vote:shrinehime

Yes, my attacks are entirely hypocritical, and the only reason I'm not targeting myself is because I know my own alignment. Would you suggest I target nobody at all?

LMP complained I'm targeting someone who isn't all that scummy: I asked him who he finds scummier than Dr. Robotnik in the list of players I've had time to read on.

Oh my god why isn't this guy dead?

Hmmm... Considering it... Especially since only one player is joining me on the askbob wagon.

If you even bother to look at the time stamps you'd know it wasn't immediate >.< I can read pretty fast, but hell to the freaking no can I read that many pages in a *Snap* like that... It was a hour or two.

Stop saying I immediately jumped on it because of my first post being my vote on him.

THAT

is stupid. Sorry~

So you couldn't do the reread during the night like I did? You had to wait for day 2 to start to do a reread? Why is that, where you busy in the night time? If so, with what?

Ummm... you do realize that what caused him to do a reread is seeing that Vi is Town, right?

I think roleblocker is a fairly unlikely role for town to have. I also don't like the way nhammen gave his report and instantly voted SGR.

While I don't agree about roleblocker being a fairly unlikely role for town to have, I do agree that nhammen was way to aggresive with his vote on SGR. Almost like he was desperate to put the attention anywhere other than on himself.

nhammen didn't even consider for a moment that there could be other reasons for one less kill.

I agree with LMP here. Bolded is scummy of nhammen.

!@#$%^&*()
Except that I DID mention other possibilities. IN THE SAME POST THAT I VOTED HIM! I said that I didn't believe that the scum would have withheld their kill, but there was something else that I thought was likely. I later clarified that this something was the possibility of a Doc protect. I really should have specified that in the first place. I don't remember why I didn't, except that I had a specific reason for not doing so. I think maybe it was because I wanted to be able to catch a scumslip from a Mafia member that knew who the kill was made by, just in case the kill wasn't made by SGR. But the possibility of a Doc protect was fairly obvious. So I don't know why I would have thought that if SGR didn't make the Mafia kill, that only Mafia would immediately mention it.

ya i ignore u questshun cuz it suck and i alredy fond scum nhammen and askbob, with a socrates scum on the other team.

Maybe some cases would be nice?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@SSBF - How does a "I think these people are town" list help the town?

I'll explain what me and SerialClergyman were attempting to do:

SerialClergyman wanted in some way or form get the claimed roles dealt with and that it was important. He suggested that we formed a town group and I agreed. So I decided to set up four groups (Townies, Claimed Roles, Null, and Scums). My idea attempted to single out the scum reads first, then the null reads, and under the last circumstances, the claimed masons. I thought the group was too small, so we decided to look for more. We thought about a few candidates. Then we started to get attacked on (For legitimate reasons) by vezopiraka and foilist13, earning me and SerialClergyman a spot in foilist13's scum list. Others replied negatively as well.

Given that we've been called out on for attempting such things, I decided to drop the whole thing and move on with the game.

[SerialClergyman]

Wrong move, little man. Getting called out as scummy is par for the course when starting to talk about town reads. don't let it phase you. (and yes, town and scum both react negatively, although rarely do scum react positively. In fact if you offer to include scum, they're often so wary that they question their own inclusion, saying things like 'wait, I'm not confirmed town by any means' This happened in my last game, Hoopla's mini.) That was why I said earlier how I was feeling better about this game already. Besides, it doesn't have ot be quite so formal. Just lets get a bit of chat going about pulling this joint into a unified direction.

[nhammen]

I would be fairly surprised if you were a werewolf without Nhammen also being a werewolf and this is a turbo bus, but your play is picture perfect of what I would expect out of a member of the mafia.

Why is Unsight so obv town? And I don't know how comfortable I am with SC liking SSBF's town list and saying "Ok, I'm willing to go with this". Frankly it looks pretty bad to me.

2 posts before SSBF's list, SC says he can't find enough obv town to do it, and suddenly SSBF's post essentially saying "me, you and Unsight are" is enough to convince him? 1337 and 1341 stink.

FOS: SerialClergyman

I had an early game Town read on SC, so I ignored scummy behavior from him because this early game read was very strong. I need to reassess.

@1326 (Socrates) - how do you work out if people, say, "Aren't mafia"? With no dead scum, aren't both groups basically interchangable?

Two differences. Actions regarding the Mason/Monk claims. Actions regarding the RB on Socrates. Not interchangeable. Note: most of his differences are from the RB.



@nacho 1369 Cool robotnik case.

vote robotnik

3) And most importantly: Do you really think that SSBF is confirmed town, or is it because he came up with this? I find it incredibly convenient that he suddenly gets to be confirmed town even though he is on several people's scum lists. That applies to you as well.

The only people I can remember that have SSBF in their scum list are members of the Parama clique. And if you think those are the people that we should pay attention to...

While I'm still reading why isn't Goat dead? (I may fall asleep here soon but)

He was superlurk. Hard to read. Then, he was replaced by Nik. WHo is still catching up.



@Town Group: I can accept this idea, but it might be a good idea to wait one more game Day. I'm not sure. I know that with the flak I have taken, I won't be in this group, but I'm OK with the group if the included members make sense. I can get behind Lowell's inclusion. And SSBF. I would have said SC as well, but Soc and LMP raised good points. I have to reread him before I can say yes to that. I disagree with Unsight's inclusion. Too much hiding. I was considering for a moment to RB Unsight last night, before I decided on SGR. And I still don't quite like Unsight's play. I don't think there are enough Town members to do this yet.

[Parama]

SSBF's whole eagerly jumping with SC's

1337

remark about wanting a pro-town group just seems like scum trying to buddy town (or in SC's case maybe other scum group).

This is the best sentence ever. That 1337 was so unintentional yet it could be taken either way.

Okay screw my earlier read on SSBF he's probably town although he's playing incredibly stupidly. *sigh*

OH HEY SPYREX WHY ARE YOU ALWAYS REPLACING INTO BAD LARGE NORMALS (see: Mafia 112) AND ARE YOU GOING TO WIN THIS GAME FOR US LIKE USUAL?

WELP BACK TO NOT BEING HERE I MUST BE GOING. BYE.

[SerialClergyman]

Hilariously, Parama you posted that at 11:37am site time.

[SerialClergyman]

Or like, you know, not hilariously, because obviously 11:37 is not 13:37.

..

<-- is old and sleepy.

[vezopiraka]

Unvote
Vote Dr Robotnik

I want this day to end. If someone makes another wagon I am going to scream.