Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[Amished]

Ask a question/talk about something.

Maybe it'll jog my mind into motion cause something is at the tip of my tongue but I can't spit it out.

[Yosarian2]

Did you miss the fact that I caught PE days ago, and have been trying to lynch him and his replacement Cove all game? Long before you voted him.

I can't pretend to like this comment. "I voted Cove before you did, so I'm town!"
Yos, do you believe that scum is incapable of bussing?

That's a silly question.

Amished attacked me, claiming I wasn't "really scumhunting". I responded by pointing out that I was not only scumhunting, but that I actually

caught scum

. I think that's a perfectly valid response to an accusation of "not scumhunting", don't you?

Yos, could your reasoning behind this post a bit better? Right now, I'm reading it as "waffle on scot waffle on scot waffle on scot… VOTE for Cove!"

No waffle at all.

Fonz posted a solid, logical post, that I disagreed with based on gut, even though I couldn't disagree with the logic. I could have just ignored it or whatever, but I'd rather say what I was thinking. And what I was thinking was that, depsite Fonz's post, I thought (and think) Scot is town. I don't know how you can say that's a waffle.

The vote for cove wasn't directly related to the comments about Scott.

Eh. Whenever I see someone make odd assumptions about the kill, like you seemed to be doing, I tend to think of it as a huge scum tell. It seemed obvious to me that that was a scum kill, but you seemed sure it wasn't; so sure, you were willing to vote someone partly because he disagreed with you about it. In my experience, that's often a sign that you are scum and already know who the scum killed (which it what I was clearly implying in my "do you know something I don't" question.)

Odd... as in, not the conclusions you draw? So you're ignoring the possibility that your assumption about the kill was odd to him, he thought of it as a huge scum tell, and voted you? Or are you simply being hypocritical?

Something is odd if it's odd. It depends on the circumstances, and yes, it can be subjective, but hey, mafia is a subjective game. In this case, it's odd that he instantly jumped to the conclusion that Fonz was vig killed, despite Fonz being SOO obv pro-town all game, and despite the fact that no one expressed any suspicion of Fonz all game. It's even more odd that he was so certain of this; if he had just vaguely speculated about the kill our whatever, that'd be one thing, but it almost seemed like he KNEW who made the kill, and that set off warning bells in my head.

When I saw the kill, I automatically drew the opposite conclusion, yes, and the fact that his conclusion seemed so bizzare to me did make me wonder if he might be scum who knew it wasn't his group who did the kill. That's actually a really strong tell; if something looks like a scum kill, but one guy is randomly insisting that it must be a vig kill, that guy is likely to be scum. It's one of those things I always keep an eye out for.

So, I asked him about it.

And, hey, if he wants to try to use that argument against me, if he really thinks that my assumption that no town vig in their right mind would kill fonz, is somehow scummy, he should feel free to make that argument. Of course, he hasn't made that argument when listing the reasons he voted for me, and I don't expect him to because it really wouldn't make sense, but hey.

Your response seemed somewhat plausible, and

I'm giving you some credit for helping push the cove lynch, yesterday,

so I dropped it for the moment. That dosn't at all mean the question was "pointless" though; just the opposite.

...? I can't say that I'm following your logic here. I don't even know why the bolded was added in. Care to clarify?

If it wasn't for Amished's attack on cove yesterday, there's a high chance I'd be voting him now. However, I don't really think Amished is scum, simply because his attack on cove was very pro-town, and I don't think it was a bus.

Basically, I didn't press an attack on Amished despite the possible tell mostly because, on re-reading, I decided that the whole situation with Cove made Amished probably town.

My case against PE, followed by my support for Cove wagon, were two of the main driving forces behind his eventual lynch. There's no way anyone would have taken your (rather abusrd) "cove" tell seriously if I hadn't already gotten everyone suspicious of that rule, and then supported the cove wagon. Frankly, you got a little momentum going on the cove wagon, which was very helpful, but then when you revealed your "tell" the absurdity of it almost derailed the wagon.

Would you mind providing links to back up that extremely bold statement? I’m having trouble believing it.

I first started going after PE in post 713. The only person who had voted PE before me was Anon, just a few posts before. This was a pretty radical departure for me, since up to that point I was mostly going after Richard, but re-reading day 1, PE's behavior on the mipe wagon just screamed scum to me. I took a fair amount of flack for attacking PE here (From quagmire, Fonz, and Shanba) but I stuck by my guns in post 742 (defending my "PE is scum" theory against Shanba) and post 743 (defendign it against Fonz). I continued to attack PE in 748 and 749.

Eventually, The Fonz followed me onto the PE wagon (post 774).

In the end, I wasn't able to push through a PE wagon that day. However, the next day, when Scot led the attack on Cove, one of the main reasons he gave was the argument I was pushing so hard, that PE looked scummy on the mipe wagon.

If you read through day 2 and day 3 in context, I think it becomes clear that there's a clear trajectory from the big, long, and detailed attacks I made against PE on day 2 through to cove's eventual lynch on day 3.

[Nachomamma8]

There's a question that I feel should be extremely relevant to this game hovering at the edge of my conciousness regarding you, Anon, but it won't come to mind atm. Anything you want to talk about?

I dont understand what you are saying, Amished.

lol

Amished attacked me, claiming I wasn't "really scumhunting". I responded by pointing out that I was not only scumhunting, but that I actually caught scum. I think that's a perfectly valid response to an accusation of "not scumhunting", don't you?

Fair enough.

The vote for cove wasn't directly related to the comments about Scott.

Ooh. That explains it.

That's actually a really strong tell; if something looks like a scum kill, but one guy is randomly insisting that it must be a vig kill, that guy is likely to be scum. It's one of those things I always keep an eye out for.

Yeah, but that's not what happened. Amish presented his views, you countered with your view and called his scummy, IIRC. Dahill agreed with you, but no one else said anything, maybe you should've asked for their opinion?

This question:

Would you mind providing links to back up that extremely bold statement?

reffered to this statement:

Frankly, you [Amished] got a little momentum going on the cove wagon, which was very helpful, but then when you revealed your "tell" the absurdity of it almost derailed the wagon.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[farside22]

vote count:

Dahill (1) VasudeVa
Scot (2) Dahill, RichardGHP
Don_Johnson (1) Mr. Chaos
Yosarian (1) Amished
VasudeVa (2) Anon, Scotmany, Nachomamma

not voting:

iamausername
Don_Johnson
Yosarian2
inHimshallibe

With 12 alive it will take 7 to lynch
Deadline June 24th, 6:00pm PST

[Amished]

Oh,

@Yos: since you caught scum, who else is scum?

[don_johnson]

alright. 932 is over. town win. now i can focus a bit here. sorry for the delay.

[Yosarian2]

That's actually a really strong tell; if something looks like a scum kill, but one guy is randomly insisting that it must be a vig kill, that guy is likely to be scum. It's one of those things I always keep an eye out for.

Yeah, but that's not what happened. Amish presented his views, you countered with your view and called his scummy, IIRC. Dahill agreed with you, but no one else said anything, maybe you should've asked for their opinion?

Why? What Amish did is a scumtell if he had no logical reason for thinking Fonz was a vig-kill, less of one if he had a logical reason. So what mattered was asking him questions, discussing it with him, getting him to explain and defend his position. Why would I go around taking a straw poll at that point? In fact, trying to get everyone's opinion on "Do you think kill X was a scum kill or a vig kill" is generally a bad idea, since if there is a hidden vig that kind of questioning is likely to out him.

This question:

Would you mind providing links to back up that extremely bold statement?

:

Frankly, you [Amished] got a little momentum going on the cove wagon, which was very helpful, but then when you revealed your "tell" the absurdity of it almost derailed the wagon.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Right after Amish clarified his "tell", 2 people said that it was "stupid" (Scot and Dahill; Scot still wanted to lynch Cove, but at this point largely becuase of the vanilla claim), and Fonz decided that Cove was probably not scum and voted to lynch Scot instead.

I do think there was a significant risk at this point of the wagon being derailed at this point, partly because people were disenchanted after Amish's reveal of his "tell". I understand that you liked the tell, because of experience, and Chaos went from not liking the wagon at all to voting for it after the tell was explained (I don't full understand his reasoning here, and frankly several things about Chaos this game wierd me out a bit), but I think by the end of the day, Cove was more lynched despite Amish's tell then because of it.

That being said, I don't see Amish going after a scumbuddy for something like that, and, like I said, the added pressure he had put on cove before that point had been very helpful.

[Amished]

Oh,

@Yos: since you caught scum, who else is scum?

[dahill1]

I'm really sorry guys I'm going to have to replace out. Not because I don't want to play any more but I have finals coming up tomorrow and after that I'm pretty much gone all summer at camp.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I'll make a quick answer right now, Amish. I thought my suspicions were generally pretty clear, but if you want me to lay them out all in one place, that's fine.

Obv town:
Nachomamma8 (must be town; the tell I caught PE with was the way he was trying to lynch Mipe, his predecessor)
scotmany12

Probably town:
Anon
RichardGHP
inHimshallibe (I really liked the way he did that hammer yesterday, just as it looked like the cove wagon might start to loose steam, and he had a good reason for it to. I think he's town.)
Amished

?/ no read
Mr. Chaos
dahill1

Scummy-ish
VasudeVa
Iamusername
Doc_Johnson

[VasudeVa]

mipe -

PaltryExcuse

, VasudeVad,

ksun482

,

sorasagoof

, RichardGHP,

FeFiFoFum

(L-5)
RichardGHP- scotmany12, Mipe, Yosarian2, Quagmire,

korts

(L-6)
ksun482-

Shanba

, dahill1,

The Fonz

, inHimshallibe, iamausername (L-6)

mipe -

PaltryExcuse

,

ksun482

,

sorasagoof

,

FeFiFoFum

(L-7)
RichardGHP- scotmany12, Mipe, Yosarian2, Quagmire,

korts, Shanba

(L-5)
ksun482- dahill1,

The Fonz

, inHimshallibe, iamausername, Anon, RichardGHP, DizzyIzzyB13, VasudeVad,

Zoraster

(L-2)

zoraster- Anon, inHimshallibe, Mr. Chaos, DizzyIzzyB13, RichardGHP, Dahill1

Scotmany (5) inHimshallibe, Cove, VasudeVa, RichardGHP, dahill
Cove (7) scotmany12, Yosairan, Amished, Nachomamma8, don_Johnson, Mr. Chaos, Anon

D1 votals tell me either: 1. there should be more scum voting for Richard(otherwise, where would the scum votes be?) or 2. there is one more busser in the ksun wagon(an earlier one).

Number 1 seems unlikely considering the cove lynch has all of those players.
Number 2, however, seems to point to dahill(with a late Zoraster bus).

Vote stays.

[Anon]

@Vasudeva, I dont get smething. In your D1 votals, you say that there should be more scum voting for Richard. Do you think its unlikely there is a busser in the ksun wagon or that richard himself is scum?

@Yos, why are scot and richard on the town side of the spectrum? Also, do you disagree with my logic to clear donjhonson?

[Anon]

Vasu, same question about my reasoning to clear dahill, do you disagree with it? Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Mod, I'm voting VasudeVa.

Guys, can we PLEASE lynch VasudeVa right now?

Fixed

[Amished]

@nm8: we have like 2 weeks. What else (other than your wagoning thing) do you have on VV to convince me that he's scum and not a VI?

[VasudeVa]

@Anon: It's either 1 or 2, leaning to 2, another busser.

No, I do not think that Richard is scum(as of now.). I do not detect an ounce of pressuredness/guilt on him. His defense is far too confident as scum.

Missed that one on dahill. I don't see scum reacting to one of their important dudes dying like that.

Guess the busser is iamusername then.

Vote: iamusername

[Yosarian2]

@Yos, why are scot and richard on the town side of the spectrum?

I'd pretty convinced Scot is town at this point. Part of it is the good vibes I've had about him all game. Part of it that I pretty much agree with most of the posts he's made, and he seems to be looking at the game from what feels to me like a pro-town stance. And I like the way he did his cove vote yesterday, and the way he stuck to it.

As for Richard...at this point, that's mostly based on his role claim. There are still some unknowns and stuff, and I'd hate to walk into a sucm tracker or whatever, but I think that based on what we know now, he's more likely telling the truth then not. That's not a solid read at this point, though; again, if we're lucky, we may have more info tommorow.l

Also, do you disagree with my logic to clear donjhonson?

Eh; I'm not sure about the "Don wouldn't vote for me if he was scum who knew I was a vig" argument. I mean, heck, I've had scum vote for me when I was king in a kingmaker game before. I see where you're coming from; I'm just not sure it's as strong an argument as you do, and what we really need is some useful, positive content from Don himself at this point.

[don_johnson]

iso of ksun is easy.

jumped off the dahill wagon with no real reasoning.

zoraster iso reveals an attempt to connect scot to vasudeva. vote goes to scot. vas more likely scum imo. nice way to look back and say "i knew one of them was scummy!"

richard votes are bad according to iso 6. zor spends time lamenting on the richard "mislynch", again, setting up scot to take the blame for the townrichard flip.

iso 15 is horrible richardvote reasoning. ghp is more liikely town.

iso 17 is a poor vote on anon, again not taking responsibility for the lynch.

iso 20 could be a bus. kind of "oh well, i've been called out on all my town wagons, may as well call it as i know it!", leaves the vote on as well. kind of like "now i'm going to lurk. if the lynch swings to vas i come out smelling like roses."

FoS: vas

bear with me. this thread is obnoxoiusly long at this point.

[don_johnson]

paltryexcuse:

iso 2 defends dahill.

ignores the izzy wagon.

really fence sits with his support of the vas wagon. criticizes and supports it at the same time.

mipe is most likely town according to pe's own "scum tactics".

iso 6. scum to scum chat? "get in the game"

@VasudeVa: There is no 'proof' in mafia games beyond night actions (and those can be lied about as well). For example, the case on mipe isn't foolproof, it's based on anti-town bandwagon-y behaviour and then the sudden change in attitude once he's being pressure. I think he's scum, but 'proof' will never be there.

mipe is town, but he's playing poorly so i'm going to use that as my cover for being on his wagon. if you'd like, you could do it too.

another vas vote camped by known scum. 11 days, was this including a night phase?

votes inhim weak, unvotes to leave game.

i'm probably starting to tunnel on vasudeva here. but i think that's okay.

vote: vasudeva

[VasudeVa]

While I honestly don't mind getting lynched, you really should lynch that scummy player slot who isn't getting replacements first.

Just sayin'.

[Nachomamma8]

@nm8: we have like 2 weeks. What else (other than your wagoning thing) do you have on VV to convince me that he's scum and not a VI?

While I honestly don't mind getting lynched, you really should lynch that scummy player slot who isn't getting replacements first.

Just sayin'.

[Amished]

Yeah...

Unvote
Vote: VasudeVa

[Anon]

While I honestly don't mind getting lynched, you really should lynch that scummy player slot who isn't getting replacements first.

Just sayin'.

lolwat

Vote: Vasudeva

L-1

Claim please

[VasudeVa]

Vanilla. Lynch away. Just make sure you go after iamausername afterwards.

[Amished]

lolk