Open 218: Two-fold C9 - Game Over

[ODDin]

inHimshallibe (1) ODDin
Beefster (5) Scott Brosius, Chronopie, Mr. Chaos, easjo682, Mr.Sandman
Scott Brosius (2) ConfidAnon, inHimshallibe
easjo682 (1) Chevre
Mr. Chaos (2) Karma, XScorpion
(No vote) Beefster
12 alive; 7 votes lynch.

Not yet updated on latest events, but:

@mod: could you reconsider the replacement policy? There have been a lot of replaces already, and eventually it hurts the game because replacements generally hurt the game. elscouta, for instance, was a fairly active player, and his last post was 3 days ago, which in many games wouldn't even warrant a prod.

[Korejora]

Elscouta was not replaced for inactivity.

[ConfidAnon]

ConfidAnon, where'd you go?

Post later.

Also warning: After June 13 my access to a computer will be unknown. I

should

be able to have regular access, but you might want to have a replacement ready in case I veg.

[Mr.Sandman]

Mr. Sandman, is there any particular reason why you suddenly left Chrono alone? You chastise Mr. Chaos for claiming that Chrono has begun to behave like town, yet you take the same action he does. And Chrono is also on the same wagon...you don't find this suspicious at all?

Beefster's latest move was ridiculous. At this stage, I'm now fairly happy that he is the best lynch for today. I still think Chrono is scummy and my scum read on him hasn't diminished any, however the scumminess coming from Chrono is overshadowed by beefster. I'm not chastising Mr Chaos. I'm asking exactly what in Chrono's last couple of posts are giving him a town vibe because I don't see it.

And no, both scum want other scum dead. I don't think it's unrealistic to think there is the possibility they could be on opposing scum teams.

[Mr.Sandman]

One thing about Chrono, anti-town at best, is the complete failure to respond to or even acknowledge the points myself or anyone else has brought up against him all game. I've used that tactic as scum before

[Chevre]

Posts 220-224 between Karma and XScorpion feel like buddying to me. Especially how XScorpion responds to Karma's reread. He's just way too friendly. I also agree with the Beefster/inHim thing ODDin pointed out. I'm going to need to reread all four of those and see if I spot anything else.

Unvote

[Chevre]

Before my posts, a note: These next two posts were actually one post, but since I didn't want to discourage players from reading them, I split it up into two.

- - -

Beefster:

Keep in mind that we have 4 scum in this game. Less people to trust, etc. Not only that, but you can't really look for affiliations because of the 2 factions.

This doesn't really make sense. For one, no one can really be trusted in this game. For two, we can still look for affiliations because there are pairs.

Y'know what? My case was weak. But relatively, for the current moment, it's average. There isn't much info to go by yet. Nothing really has come out inHim. Unvote I still feel he's hiding something, but I'm at loss to any links. In fact, I find it strange that anyone could possibly decide to follow me in my stupid argument.

This is quite the strange post. I don't get why he unvoted if his case on inHim, however weak as it was, was still his best case.

-Sandman for following suit with me yet continuing to vote on inHim riding my weak arguments.

I'm not sure how to explain this, but this post doesn't feel right. After Beefster discredits his case, but still says it's scummy, he attacks Sandman for continuing to vote inHim. It seems awkward, and I think there is a term for this type of tactic.

unvote

that is all.

This is very awkward. I believe at this point Beefster was beginning to gain suspicion, and as this is the last thing he has posted, it seems he is doing what he attacked inHim for - - receeding into the background.

Conclusion: Beefster was much scummier than I had previously thought.

- - -

inHimshallibe

Some of the assumptions Beefster is making seem very innocent/genuine. Also, the way he thought about his argument, and even rescinded some of it, seems town. I think Elscouta is town for trying to get people to focus (even if it was on me) and that XScorpion is actually town because of the way he was attacking easjo when no one else saw fit to do so. He kept an attack even after he was chided, I believe, and that's definitely townlike.

I didn't think too badly of the initial post where inHim credits Beefster as town, as I figured it was on the other suspicions in Beefster's post and not him. But then, in the above post, he finds people town who have attacked him (Beefster and Elscouta) which is just really kind of odd.

Conclusion: I would really like to see some completed games, as his behavior has been consistent throughout the game and I think it probably matches his meta.

- - -

Elscouta/Karma

Good. I'm happy to know you are town. Unvote

I've already pointed out this odd turnaround.

Conclusion: the reread wasn't as supplementary as I thought, but I read more strong buddying between Karma and XScorpion. There was a very tiny suspicion-bus from Elscouta to XScorpion, but thats about it.

- - -

XScorpion:

I've already mentioned the contradiction of the random questions. It occurs in ISOpost 7 (question answers) and ISOpost 8 (criticism of same questions).

Of the four, if I had to guess at one being scum, I would say Elscouta. I don't like his sudden unvote of easjo, his coaching of Beefster, and his relentless assault on Inhim.
unvote
Vote: Elscouta

Your unvote on easjo was a bit sudden. To be more specific, you never really explained why you unvoted him. But the vote on Elscouta doesn't seem like much of a bussy vote to me.

Conclusion: I'm a bit uneasy about XScorpion, but he has been one of the top contributors.

- - -

[Chevre]

Part 2 of la posta grande.

- - -

And now...for a bonus installment!

Mr. Chaos

What is this I don't even

Unfinished sentences really bug me. Could you finish it for me, Mr. Chaos?

Conclusion: After reading the contradiction Karma pointed out, I don't think it's really a contradiction at all. And looking at Karma's case again:

First of all, Karma's case (Post 222) has three points, which makes it seem like Mr. Chaos hasn't posted or contributed that often, which I disagree with. The first point is to me invalid; everyone is doomed to post "invalid fluff" at one point or another. And also, I didn't know what was "total defeatism" due to Karma's quoting, so I went and looked at the post:

I'm not debating whether or not this was planned or not, considering we're talking about easjo.

how does this effect anything, what you mean when you say considering its me?

Considering the style of VI your playing as. It deviates from the normal VI I would expect to appear, and sort of rocks in this gray area between VI and Normal play.

Hey Mr. Chaos, who is scum?

you

In all seriousness, I dislike Elscouta's and Chrono's play. I'm really more likely to vote for them than some others. I won't lie when I say I feel like my reads this game are totally off balanced, and I really dislike my play this game as well.

I dislike the inHim wagon, but I'm not entirely opposed to it. From what I've seen of his play, its not too far off, but it strikes me a little bit odd. Also this post:

OK, an actual attempt at scumhunting will come today. Lynch me otherwise.

Is pretty much total defeatism and I dislike it. But it also gives me a small town vibe as well, which doesn't sit well with me either.

I really think though, that Crono needs to get in this game more. I would really like to hear more from him, and I feel the only way may be to:

Vote: Chrono

That is the entire post, and in red is what Karma quoted. Karma pinpointed one part of a much larger post as "fluff."

The next point of Karma's case comes from the same post, actually, and it is just another tidbit.

Finally, the "contradiction." While it is awkward that Mr. Chaos would post those two things back to back, it is not necessarily contradictory. Contribution and townieness don't have to be linked.

All in all, I find Karma's case on Mr. Chaos is poor, and XScorpion's follow-up looks like extreme buddying now.

Vote: Karma

, with XScorpion as most likely partner. I would also like to acknowledge that Beefster is my second suspect, with inHim as his most likely partner.

[Scott Brosius]

Until someone flips, it's not really useful to attempt to find affiliations as it's D1. They are easier to find in retrospect (especially in NKs if one group hits the other). We should be focused on the scummiest player, not attempting to link players together on D1.

For example, you state that you are only "a bit uneasy" about XScorp, but then he is up there with your scum suspects because he welcomed Karma and followed a vote? That is a pretty weak relationship to attempt to determine partnership with.

I think your effort is town play Chevre, I just don't agree with the affiliations.

[XScorpion]

I unvoted easjo to move on to scummier targets. The inhim wagon was pretty scummy-looking from my perspective, and easjo's only scumtell was his contradiction, plus my vote didn't seem to be as useful there as it might have been if Elscouta returned.

Chevre, you seem to be throwing around the word 'contradiction' a lot, although in each case, it is a different situation. Easjo's contradiction was simply that: him saying something that contradicted what he said earlier (no reason for changing a vote vs. a need to change a vote). My "contradiction" was simply a case of me saying that RQS is useless, yet still answering the questions. However, the only reason that would make any sense for me to not answer them is if I had something to hide. Meanwhile, Mr. Chaos' contradiction is more of an inconsistency: he drastically changes his view of Chrono in the span of two posts, which seems very sudden. Do you not see how it looks as though Mr. Chaos is simply dropping his attack on Chrono because Beefster is a much easier target?

And P.S.

Unfinished sentences really bug me. Could you finish it for me, Mr. Chaos?

See here: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/what-is-this-i-dont-even

[Chevre]

easjo's contradiction was a true contradiction. I have agreed with that.

While yours is not a textbook contradiction, it is the best word I can come up with. What I'm trying to ask/say is that if you found the RQS useless, why did you answer the questions? This is going on in another (ongoing) game, though I must confess it is not exactly the same as yours, it is similar.

Finally, the Chaos contradiction. In the first of the two posts, Mr. Chaos had quoted one of Chronopie's posts and questioned it, just that post. The next post, Mr. Chaos found Chronopie's posts

as a whole

. I see that this situation is sketchy, so I'd like to pose the following question to Mr. Chaos: What about Chronopie has made him town?

And thanks for the meme-clarification. Although the way I handled it is one for the books

[Karma]

I'm not debating whether or not this was planned or not, considering we're talking about easjo.

how does this effect anything, what you mean when you say considering its me?

Considering the style of VI your playing as. It deviates from the normal VI I would expect to appear, and sort of rocks in this gray area between VI and Normal play.

Hey Mr. Chaos, who is scum?

you

In all seriousness, I dislike Elscouta's and Chrono's play. I'm really more likely to vote for them than some others. I won't lie when I say I feel like my reads this game are totally off balanced, and I really dislike my play this game as well.

I dislike the inHim wagon, but I'm not entirely opposed to it. From what I've seen of his play, its not too far off, but it strikes me a little bit odd. Also this post:

OK, an actual attempt at scumhunting will come today. Lynch me otherwise.

Is pretty much total defeatism and I dislike it. But it also gives me a small town vibe as well, which doesn't sit well with me either.

I really think though, that Crono needs to get in this game more. I would really like to hear more from him, and I feel the only way may be to:

Vote: Chrono

That is the entire post, and in red is what Karma quoted. Karma pinpointed one part of a much larger post as "fluff."

The next point of Karma's case comes from the same post, actually, and it is just another tidbit.

Finally, the "contradiction." While it is awkward that Mr. Chaos would post those two things back to back, it is not necessarily contradictory. Contribution and townieness don't have to be linked.

All in all, I find Karma's case on Mr. Chaos is poor, and XScorpion's follow-up looks like extreme buddying now.

Vote: Karma

, with XScorpion as most likely partner. I would also like to acknowledge that Beefster is my second suspect, with inHim as his most likely partner.

So let's see what you've got here:

First off, a GIGANTIC CHAINSAW DEFENSE.

Finally, the "contradiction." While it is awkward that Mr. Chaos would post those two things back to back, it is not necessarily contradictory. Contribution and townieness don't have to be linked.

Secondly, here's what happened:

1. Chaos votes Chrono because he thinks he's not participating enough
2. Chrono continues to not participate very much
3. Chaos suddenly gets a "decent townie feel" from Chrono

You call this "not necessarily contradictory." Explain yourself, cause it looks pretty fucking contradictory from my perspective.

Also, why question Chaos about the contradiction when you defended him about it two posts earlier? Subtle distancing?

[XScorpion]

What I'm trying to ask/say is that if you found the RQS useless, why did you answer the questions? This is going on in another (ongoing) game, though I must confess it is not exactly the same as yours, it is similar.

However, the only reason that would make any sense for me to not answer them is if I had something to hide.

If Beefster somehow was able to use my RQS answers to catch scum, despite my doubts, who am I to deny him the opportunity?

[Mr. Chaos]

gog damm, all the suspicion on me as soon as i go Limited Access. I think I can manage to do a couple things, though.

What about Chronopie has made him town?

His last post before I unvoted gave me an oddly town vibe, while I kept noticing Beefster being generally unhelpful and pinging my scum radar quite a bit more. TL;DR I thought Beefster looked more scummy at that point.

Also, why question Chaos about the contradiction when you defended him about it two posts earlier? Subtle distancing?

Obv she wanted to hear it from me to verify whether her idea was right.

Also, Karm, why'd you quote Chev's post about your disagreements with me, then say absolutely nothing about it?

@XScorp:

While beefster looks like obv. scum at this point, the people who are hurriedly jumping to his wagon could easily be on the other faction. I'll withhold from hopping on the beefster wagon since I'm in no hurry to end the day... and I want to pick out the scum on his wagon first. Karma has already pointed out everything I think is scummy about Chaos, not to mention that (as i said on page 5) he STILL hasn't contributed anything original.

This is terrible posting. If beefster is obv scum, why not lynch him? IMO you can't pick scum out on a player-that-might-be-scum wagon, if you don't even know if he is. And why mention something you said half the game ago now, when you should have been mentioning it repeatedly?

I'm gonna keep my vote where it is.

[XScorpion]

His last post before I unvoted gave me an oddly town vibe

personally, #1 or #2 seems most likely.

Putting my vote where my gut is at:

Unvote, Vote: Beefster

...This gives you a town vibe? Giving into me pressuring him to vote for someone he thinks is scummy? OK.

I'm not going to defend beefster, but it still looks to me like you are just rushing for the easiest lynch possible here.

If beefster is obv scum, why not lynch him?

Because, unlike you, I am in no rush to end the day. Is there some reason why you are in such a hurry to get a lynch?

IMO you can't pick scum out on a player-that-might-be-scum wagon, if you don't even know if he is.

And why not? If he is scum, then there may easily be scum on his wagon from the other faction. If he is town, then I can almost guarantee that there are scum on his wagon. Either way, I don't want the day to end in a rushed lynch of beefster without looking at who is on his wagon.

And why mention something you said half the game ago now, when you should have been mentioning it repeatedly?

Forgive me for not paying undivided attention to you and trying to pressure you to scumhunt in every post I make. I'll try to make up for it now.

[Karma]

Also, Karm, why'd you quote Chev's post about your disagreements with me, then say absolutely nothing about it?

Huh?

[Beefster]

Do you not see how it looks as though Mr. Chaos is simply dropping his attack on Chrono because Beefster is a much easier target?

QFT

And a supplemental PBP analysis on

Mr. Chaos

:
*Skipping RVS*

Vote: Easjo

Yea, what the hell is up with those last 3 posts, man? "Voices in my head" explanation is total bs since it doesn't explain anything about your latest vote.

And FoS: Elscouta and Beefster

El: For giving up his vote on Eas based on a post that IMO is completely incomprehensible

Beefster: For trying to prolong RVS/RQS.

Looks like he's just attacking the easiest targets. He posts minimal reasoning behind his statements. And what's this? He appears to be attacking Elscouta on a reason that he's attacking easjo with.
ISO3 hijacks a question aimed at me. Tries to clarify his reasoning against easjo and fails. Fence-sits inHim. Pretty much one big scumtell in a convenient package.
ISO4 dislikes the lurkers that answered the RQs.
ISO5 attacks my hypocrisy, despite the fact that he's more of a hypocrite than I am. Then he unvotes for no reason. WTF? Then he drops an excuse to coast by waiting until the next page to vote. (since that's how Korejora does vote counts)
ISO6 attacks WIFOM, and only WIFOM. No action here. Pretty sneaky way to avoid a prod.
ISO7 throws up another dust cloud that has nothing to do with his defense.
ISO8 looks like a diversion. Chrono didn't really bother him before, but he suddenly finds Chrono suspicious and promptly votes on him? WTF?
ISO9 begins with hypocrisy. Demands a scumlist. Disputes asking for meta/self incrimination. And all topped off with sarcasm.
ISO10 begins with more hypocrisy- for throwing up a dust cloud. Attacks me and my spontaneous time restrictions. Keeps his vote on Chronopie for one small thing.
ISO11: apology
ISO12 points out a question I missed.
ISO13- You're no better in the area of active lurking... I had too many suspects with equally weak cases.
ISO14 attacks Chrono again for not contributing much. Hypocrisy.
ISO15 jumps on me for "not scumhunting" and does a 180 in his stance on Chrono. Attacks playstyle instead of scum.
ISO16 calls V/LA
ISO17 defends (poorly) why his stance changed. He throws up another dust cloud in defending himself from XS. A note on XS's statement: I only

looked

like obv. scum. There was probably some other rational reason why he didn't vote on me.

Conclusion: Mr. Chaos is scum. He appears to attack the weakest target. He's a huge hypocrite. He's active lurky. He throws up dust clouds and incomprehensible paragraphs in his defenses, and dances around the questions pointed at him and hijacks the questions not pointed at him.

(the part about hijacking questions is a joke)

Vote: Mr. Chaos

[Chevre]

1. Chaos votes Chrono because he thinks he's not participating enough
2. Chrono continues to not participate very much
3. Chaos suddenly gets a "decent townie feel" from Chrono

You call this "not necessarily contradictory." Explain yourself, cause it looks pretty fucking contradictory from my perspective.

OK. There are two separate entities here. Think of them as 1 to 10 scales. They are:

Not Participating-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-Actively Participating
and
Scum-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-Town

For your contradiction to hold true, there would only be one scale:

Not Participating-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-Town

Which is obviously not the case.

[quote="Karma"Also, why question Chaos about the contradiction when you defended him about it two posts earlier? Subtle distancing?[/quote]

For clarification, obviously. If he couldn't come up with a decent answer, then I would've been proven wrong.

If Beefster somehow was able to use my RQS answers to catch scum, despite my doubts, who am I to deny him the opportunity?

I see. I guess it only is a scumtell if you say "the questions are completely useless to everyone" and answer them anyway. Therefore, my point on you was invalid.

Because, unlike you, I am in no rush to end the day. Is there some reason why you are in such a hurry to get a lynch?

So are you saying once you are satisfied with the day's activity and findings, you'll switch your vote to "obvscum" Beefster? If so, then what is the point of the Mr. chaos vote?

Beefster: Where was that type of PBPA on Elscouta?

[XScorpion]

When I'm satisfied with the day's activities, if voting for beefster is the only way to ensure a lynch, then I suppose I'll vote for him. However, if Chaos ends up being scummier than him in the end, and I can get enough people supporting a lynch of him, then I think he is a reasonable lynch alternative.

[ODDin]

inHim picked and choosed his targets from those who were on his wagon and ignored those who made the same case?

Ah, I get you now. Didn't read your post correctly.


Don't like Beefster's post 204. scorpion is asking good questions, which in my book

is

scumhunting.
Even more indicative is how he buckles under pressure and unvotes.

However, since we have 4 scum, it means if beefster is town, there are 4 people out there who don't mind voting for him. If he's scum, it'd mean there are only 2 people out there who don't mind voting for him. (though still more than the 0 of usual games, of course)

Until someone flips, it's not really useful to attempt to find affiliations as it's D1. They are easier to find in retrospect (especially in NKs if one group hits the other). We should be focused on the scummiest player, not attempting to link players together on D1.

I agree (although it's not entirely useless - you just need the argument to be especially strong since it's very easy to be mistaken. For starters, you'd need for both sides to have posts indicating of a mutual link)
However, scott, why don't you actually try to find the scummiest individual player? It's not like you're doing much other than telling others what not to do.

[ODDin]

Also, I see there's a case forming on chaos and I haven't really got an opinion on him either way atm, so I'll reread him when I find the time. (Lots of homework and nearing exams mean I haven't got too much of that...)

[Karma]

@Chevre: Chrono made 5 posts in between the time of Chaos's voting post and Chaos saying he has a "decent town vibe."

I guess this is a better question for Chaos than you, but it also applies to you:

What about those posts seemed so damn townie to you? Here they are for reference:

@Inhim: I too would like to hear why I make this scumlist.

@xScorpion: My top picks right now would be Elscouta, Sandman, and two of CA, Slepz, Inhim, and Easjo

You be in my head, posting my ideas.

Active lurking is anti-town, anti-town actions are scummy, therefore active-lurking is scummy.

@ODDin: I agree that many find Active lurking to be just anti-town, and pure theory discussion is unproductive, but in <ongoing - redacted> it's actually taken out

<ongoing - redacted>

several scum.

@Scott: No, I'm fine with standard mafia platitudes right now.

--

Beefster's erroneous conclusion suggests only a few possibilities to me: 1) Scumbuddies, 2) Scum that knows Scott is town (or at least not on the same team), thus

"Not on my scumlist"

because he knows who's scum (at least part), or 3) newb-town.

personally, #1 or #2 seems most likely.

Putting my vote where my gut is at:

Unvote, Vote: Beefster

Is that a superbly pro-town player to you? Are those posts good enough reason to shamelessly wagon on Beefster?

[Mr.Sandman]

Beefster, I can't believe after all the attention you gained from it and ridiculousness of it, you've still completely ignored the fact that you failed to explain your unvote on scorpion.

What about Chronopie has made him town?

His last post before I unvoted gave me an oddly town vibe, while I kept noticing Beefster being generally unhelpful and pinging my scum radar quite a bit more. TL;DR I thought Beefster looked more scummy at that point.

That still doesn't say anything about what it is that looks town about Chrono.

[Chevre]

Is that a superbly pro-town player to you? Are those posts good enough reason to shamelessly wagon on Beefster?

I never said I found Chronopie town. However, Mr. Chaos did, and all I'm trying to say is that I don't believe the contradiction point of your case is true. I also see you are being careful to give me all the information needed now, rather than snippets of posts.

[Mr.Sandman]

When I'm satisfied with the day's activities, if voting for beefster is the only way to ensure a lynch, then I suppose I'll vote for him. However, if Chaos ends up being scummier than him in the end, and I can get enough people supporting a lynch of him, then I think he is a reasonable lynch alternative.

Unless 7 people vote for a no lynch, we'll have a lynch no matter what happens, will we not?

Why are you saying the only reason you'll vote for beefster is to ensure a lynch, as if to suggest you don't find him particularly scummy but you'd vote him anyway to end the day?