NY 120: Flash mafia 2. GAME OVER

[Espeonage]

Also. What the town has currently is more than fine to be going on with. Mafia is a long game however. The day has barely started. I will have a serious vote well before we get in range of deadline.

[vollkan]

That is definantly a reason not to post them. Especially when the power of the case is that the scum don't yet know what they are dealing with. There is more than one way to catch scum.

No, it isn't. If your arguments are not going to convince people (for the third time, OF WHAT?), it is probably because they crap.

Also, your second sentence doesn't make sense. If you are suggesting that you want an element of surprise in your attack, I fail to see how that is pro-town (ie. using psychological tricks to make answering your case more difficult) at all.

Cases that have one very strong point that has a convoluded path is weak by this site's meta. Consider it a partial case with a confusing base that will explaination and backing up.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you suggesting that not only have you predicted that you will have a case in the future, but you also know what the core thread of that case will be?

information fishing is like role fishing but for information. Scum really likes to know exactly what the town is thinking.

And town doesn't?

Because he isn't acting on the unexplained parts yet. Until he does that he doesn't need to provide reasoning and it would be pro scum to do so even if it isn't scummy.

He declared it. That means by definition he should have reasons. I frankly don't give a toss whether he has acted or not.

[Espeonage]

Ok, you guys need a big easy to read explaination. Get ready.

My arguements may convince some people that my suspects are indeed scum but the cases are a bit weak and more will be gained from not posting them. My second sentence does make sense. If I post the case now when it is an infant then the only thing that comes from it is that scum know the case that is on them. They can change their play. the case loses credibilty and they get off. There is more to be gained from waiting. it is not a surprise attack, it is an exercise that will draw out the scumtells.

No I'm saying I already have the core of the case. I've said all this before. I feel like a broken record. I really wish you were more scummy. It would give you an excuse.

In this particular case I imagine scum would more.

Yes he should but just because you have reasons doesn't mean you should post them. You would suck as a torturer irl. Too hotheaded when people don't comply.

Hope this post has made it easier for everyone to understand that I will have the full scumteam by the end of the day.

[Porochaz]

Damage been done. Really obvious if they start changing play based on case, only applicable if case is based on playstyle etc.

[Espeonage]

Nuances are easy to change under the radar.

[Oman]

Damage been done. Really obvious if they start changing play based on case, only applicable if case is based on playstyle etc.

<3, this, +1, etc.

[Espeonage]

Damage been done. Really obvious if they start changing play based on case, only applicable if case is based on playstyle etc.

<3, this, +1, etc.

</3 -1 et cetera

[Fishythefish]

@Espe: If you have seen a playstyle-related scumtell that you'd like to see a few more times to make it more convincing, that's reasonable. If you have just seen a scumtell, and want to add unrelated things to your case before you publish it, then you are just deliberately going down the road of confirmation bias. I think you should be very wary of a case that makes you think "X is scum, but it's not convincing enough to tell people yet" - it sounds exactly like a recipe for unreasonable tunnelling.

[Espeonage]

Playstyle related. Thought that was obvious seeing as i have said that I would like it to happen again. I have definantly either said that or implied it strongly.

[Fishythefish]

OK. The last sentence still applies; you should be careful about what happens if you

don't

see it again.

[Parama]

3, is bullshit. Sometimes the small things count, and the small things can lead to bigger things. Granted Im arguing the opposite side of this argument with Parama but at least it creates discussion.

Admitting to contradict yourself does not make contradicting yourself ok.

[Porochaz]

I am okay with you creating discussion off the basis of me. However Im still waiting for a case that's not "He didn't join an RVS wagon and he should have voted me". Cause that case is a pile of crap.

[mikeburnfire]

Espeonage wagon is too easy.

[Ojanen]

From a skim, my guess is that Esp is either town or a player who enjoys being scum immensely more than town, the former being more likely. Answers+full post in 8 hours.

[RichardGHP]

vollkan, I'm not going to answer all those.

In answer to your final question, I read each player in isolation to determine their placement in my list.

[Porochaz]

TOWN:

vollkan
Budja
Porochaz
Parama
Untrod Tripod

NEUTRAL:

Fishythefish
JDodge
Luchris
mikeburnfire

SCUM:

Espeonage
Ojanen
Oman

What about my play makes you think he is more likely town than scum?
What about budja's play makes you think he is more likely town than scum?
What about Prozac's play makes you think he is more likely town than scum?
What about Parama's play makes you think he is more likely town than scum?
What about UT's play makes you think he is more likely town than scum?

What about Espy's play makes you think he is more likely scum than town?
What about Ojanen's play makes you think he is more likely scum than town?
What about Oman's play makes you think he is more likely scum than town?

-----
If you can't answer any of the above: then how did you determine that they deserve the classification that you give them in the above list?

[Budja]

@Oman, what is your stance on Espeonage?

[Luchris]

Espeonage, I don't remember you being a guy to get into the action as town, rather sitting back and the like. Link to recent games where you've been active like this please?

[Fishythefish]

@Richard: I would also like more explanations for your big list than "I read the players". I find it pretty difficult to believe you actually have on 8/12 players this early in the game which you think are worth publishing.

I don't see any problems in Espe's play. I can certainly imagine not revealing your case as a legitimate thing to do (although why we even know there is a case is not so clear to me).

[vollkan]

Ok, you guys need a big easy to read explaination. Get ready.

My arguements may convince some people that my suspects are indeed scum but the cases are a bit weak and more will be gained from not posting them. My second sentence does make sense. If I post the case now when it is an infant then the only thing that comes from it is that scum know the case that is on them. They can change their play. the case loses credibilty and they get off. There is more to be gained from waiting. it is not a surprise attack, it is an exercise that will draw out the scumtells.

No I'm saying I already have the core of the case. I've said all this before. I feel like a broken record. I really wish you were more scummy. It would give you an excuse.

In this particular case I imagine scum would more.

Yes he should but just because you have reasons doesn't mean you should post them. You would suck as a torturer irl. Too hotheaded when people don't comply.

Hope this post has made it easier for everyone to understand that I will have the full scumteam by the end of the day.

That does clear it up; specifically the fact that you now have the core but don't want it to spoil and be avoided, so I will end this line of questioning.

vollkan, I'm not going to answer all those.

In answer to your final question, I read each player in isolation to determine their placement in my list.

That doesn't answer my final question at all. You must have had some basis for determining whether a person was more likely scum or not, so please tell us what it was.

[Oman]

@Oman, what is your stance on Espeonage?

I disagree with mbf that the wagon is too easy. If he were town, I'd expect him at almost l-1 by now. The unfortunate fact is that my general rule of thumb involving speed does hurt me in a game like this where the experienced player re more conservative. However, I still think this is the neat wagon.

[RichardGHP]

If they make make scum-esque posts, I think they're scum. If they make town-esque posts, I think they're town. Lack of information or conflicting tells earn them a spot in the 'neutral' section.

Quite simple really; surprised you actually had to ask.

[Oman]

Just say gut, that's pretty much the only thing vollkan will listen to. He's got mad respect for the intuition.

[Espeonage]

Espeonage, I don't remember you being a guy to get into the action as town, rather sitting back and the like. Link to recent games where you've been active like this please?

I'm not. My recent games have been fraught with inactivity because of shit going on irl. That has all been sorted and with the exams coming up I will have more time to play. (Counter-intuitive but after much trial and error a period of no study actually results in more focus later.)

Umm I have many games as town where I haven'y tried this approach. I did do it once when town earlier but I didn't explain myself well and got speed lynched before I could explain what i was doing. This kind of investigation also got me places in a newbie game that town would have lost if it weren't for my revelation in 5 man lylo that accured in a similar manner to this. Of my three games as scum, 1 is ongoing however I am dead. Another I was lynched after playing the role of confusion sacrifice and the third I almost won by playing a very good lurker game.

So yeah this isn't really part of my meta either side. I don't feel the need to make an alt if I choose to alter my playstyle.

[Ojanen]

Ok.
I reread this.
I don't like the anti-Esp sentiment. I don't see anything scummy about what he's putting out. To my great shock (I was almost debating whether to ask myko to not have him play before the game [the pre-ins had a chance to influence]), I'm on his side on most of the arguments. I also think he's playing a trillion times better than last spring (granted, that has more to do with me not particularly appreciating his play there than being completely dazzled here but I digress). That makes really over-enthusiastic scum or town making an effort, and he reads as town to me currently.

Also, your second sentence doesn't make sense. If you are suggesting that you want an element of surprise in your attack, I fail to see how that is pro-town (ie. using psychological tricks to make answering your case more difficult) at all.

See, I'm not sure "element of surprise" the right idea, but I absolutely have these loose ideas that to be able to catch scum, you pretty often need to put them in uncomfortable positions. Anyone who has played more than a handful of games here is familiar with the culture and the possible things that will incriminate them. Creative or unorthodox plays by townies that can't be predicted by scum is what traps them, and milks information from a game. You need to be smart about what you do, and there's a low ceiling until unorthodoxy backfires to you, but I absolutely symphathize with the idea. I also sympathize with the idea that resulting shifts from scum can be subtle, and especially if you're unsure you don't necessarily want spill before your ideas are a bit more well-formed. So I don't see the problem with Esp atm.

2, If someone does something page 30, and you had a "base suspicion" on page 4. Im not going to give a rats ass. I do now though.

The fact that you refuse to say anything even under pressure looks scummy.

I don't understand at all what's scummy about that. The stubborness makes more sense if he actually cares about revealing or not. Fabricating a weak case is hellishly easy.

3, is bullshit. Sometimes the small things count, and the small things can lead to bigger things. Granted Im arguing the opposite side of this argument with Parama but at least it creates discussion.

Ugh in that case you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Which doesn't create useful discussion, it creates useless noise.

Oman, have you been at work this whole time?
Why are you not voting Esp if you think he's so scummy you'd expect him to be at L-1 by now?
I don't like anything Oman has said so far.

Im not voting you because it could have been a random vote, (which is what I was trying to establish)

or you were just being incredibly stupid or you were doing it to test reactions. The reason "Im voting you because you didn't join this RVS wagon" is one of the worst reasons Ive heard for voting someone in a game.
I don't want to vote you because out of all 3 reasons, not 1 is indicative of scummy behaviour.

To my early Prozac vote people were asking about: mainly my problem with the question was it didn't seem to be anything except a ORLY? undermining of Parama without beign an upfront undermining, I thought Parama had already established his reasons so I don't understand the underlined.

The things that people get voted for in RVS are always much less important than later game, but they still should be reasonable points

disagree. you need a VI, a Rampage, theme game stuff to crack or unreasonability.

I don't like UT.
I agree with Fishy often but I don't expect to be able to discern good player skill from alignment at this stage in his play.