Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[Yosarian2]

Anyone up for an impromptu wagon on Yos?

... what the hell?

[Yosarian2]

At this point, even more then by Ecto's behavior, I'm frustrated that the chamber wagon has competently evaporated. Chamber has been so blatantly acting like scum for most of the game at this point, it's frustrating to me that he doesn't have more votes on him.

[Patrick]

Votecount

chamber (1) -- Yosarian2
CrashTextDummie (1) -- IH
Ectomancer (6) -- stark, MrBuddyLee, Glork, Cogito Ergo Sum, Mert, Fritzler
Ythill (2) -- HackerHuck, chamber
Untrod Tripod (2) -- CrashTextDummie, Flameaxe
inHimshallibe (2) -- Lord Gurgi, Shanba
Flameaxe (1) -- inHimshallibe
Yosarian2 (1) -- Ythill
MrBuddyLee (1) -- Ectomancer

Not voting: Untrod Tripod
18 alive, 10 to lynch

[Yosarian2]

The fact is that they have not cared about quality at all. Go read back. The entire attack against Ecto has been about Quantity (or lack thereof). Explanations of where I was deriving my reads (at the time) were met with derision and a demand for an entire list of who might be scum or town, and this was all before page 9.

Bull.

You weren't scumhunting much, and when you were, you didn't follow up on it. When people called you out on it, you withdrew into vauge discussion of irrelevent theory. When that didn't work, you dug in and hid behind obfuscating anger and insults at everyone who dared to question you, and when that didn't work, you switched into completly unsubstantiated OMGUS attacks against me and MBL.

Insisting now that this has been about quality is a lie. Except for my list to UT (which is to him, not anyone else, so no Yos, I wont be talking to you about it), everything I've said has been along with provided reasoning. That's QUALITY.

Up until the point you OMGUS attacked both me and MBL, your only actual attack was the weak-as-milkwater comment on Gurgi that you hedged with so many weasel words, and withdrew from so quickly, as to make it almost completely useless as a form of scumhunting. And perhaps there was an attack on mert in there too somewhere, but I'm not even clear if you were actually trying to attack there, and you refused to clarify when I asked you about it.

Next, though I detailed exactly why MBL was scum, and why Yos2 is as well, MBL is using the "Im attacking you so Im immune to anything you might say because it will be OMGUS.". Scum tactic 101 right there. Point of fact is,

not a single person has discussed my reason for having MBL as #1 lynch suspect

.

What attack on MBL? I haven't seen you make anything like a logical case against him. Unless, are you talking about this?

@MBL - go back and read. Fishing for PR does not require Mert to be scum. Gurgi playing the "Hey I did that too!" card does not require Mert to be scum. (You see now how MBL is attacking a correllary of the situation, and not the accusation leveled at the player Gurgi or the merit of trying to read out from that situation? Actually, he is only using it as a further method of undercutting Ectomancer) Now this sir, is a scum read. This may yet garner a vote. It is fairly high severity for poor gamesmanship. I am still assessing whether it is an absolute mark of scumMBL. Were I presented with a deadline, there would be no doubt that MBL would be my best choice, with Gurgi a rather distant second.

That wasn't at all the main argument MBL was making against you. In any case, yes, fishing for power roles is a scum tell, and if you accuse someone of "fishing for power roles", you're generally accusing them of being scum. If you didn't mean that, then you should have clarified that, rather then attacking MBL for misunderstanding your remarkably unclear position on Mert. And you have some weird comments about "poor gamesmanship" thrown in there that I don't even understand.

There's a reason no one's commented on your case on MBL. You haven't made one. You haven't made a case on me, either. And, when after you refuse to do any scumhunting or make a case on anyone all game, you suddenly attack the people who are attacking you using remarkably weak logic, it sure looks like OMGUS.

Yos2 doesn't have a vote on me, denies even attacking me, yet is sitting over there pretending not to understand shit and still stirring the pot to keep the ball rolling.

Stark pointed out that you hadn't done much all game.

I saw his posts, so I re-read all of your posts in ISO, and I agreed with him, so I said so. You were never my main suspect (and still aren't, although it's mostly because charter is so incredibly scummy at this point), but it was worth mentioning that I wanted to hear more from you.

Is that an "attack" on you? Sure, I suppose it is. But mostly, it's been an attempt on my part to figure out your alignment, and you've been doing everything you could since then to prevent me from doing so, for reasons that I don't understand. You're not even responding to my posts.

If you are town, what you should be doing is trying to convince me, right now, and the rest of the town, that we shouldn't vote you, and trying to make a reasonable and logical case on why we should lynch someone else instead. Instead...I don't even know what you're doing, but it's really frustrating.

Hell yes it's scummy. How can it be OMGUS if he doesn't have a vote on me and denies even attacking?

You're attacking me, and it appears to be 100% because you don't like that I said negative things about you, even though all the things I said about you are clearly and obviously true and correct. That's OMGUS, pure and simple.

If you have some other, real reason for suspecting me, I'd like to hear it.

I'm also getting sick of the ad hom's.

No one's ad homming you. We're attacking your play this game, not you personally. You've been the one who's been making everything personal, and again I don't understand why you're doing it; unless your emotional response is a calculated scum ploy, I just don't understand what you're getting so angry about.

[Lord Gurgi]

inHim stuff

Unvote, Vote: Untrod Tripod

Yep, back to this:

unvote
vote: Mert

CTD wagon successfully defused. We have lots of info if he's scum.

Ythill, I'mma let ya finish with that Ectowagon, but the Mertwagon is the best of Day 1.

You say this like you're gunning for it to disappear, despite being on the wagon yourself. As if you're claiming something has been achieved by the abortion of this wagon. Then the vote for Mert without actually addressing the UT wagon or its substance. Myself, I'm happier with the inHim vote than a UT vote.

So for me this is a serious accusation that I made. That he did something that is overtly scummy, claiming success for stopping something that he had also been the last vote on. You do not vote someone to L-3, remove your vote the next page and say that the wagon is successfully defused. That is all manner of suspicious. The only reason I can think of for behaving in that way is because he was trying to build towncred. I don't like it.

Then he responds with this:

The parts make the whole, and are poor parts without the whole.

Take it from my angle. If CTD is indeed scum, I'm saying his wagon fell apart due to his teammates successfully stirring up suspicion elsewhere. I wanted to make sure people remembered these moments in D1 if CTD was scum.

I go back to Mert for the same reasons I originally voted him: vote movement into the middle of wagons. Now I can add this: there are other things happening besides the UT wagon, and he gives no comment to these other things, just sticking to wagoning.

This is complete crap. You were the first one to jump off after your own vote. If anyone declared the wagon dead or started to detract from it, it was you. Other than that, you haven't gotten a lot of substance in your posts. Your apparently first real wagon is BBM, which has no explanation at all. Meanwhile criticising me for how much I provide on a case.

This current stuff about voting blocs is absurd. Your criticism of MBL is baseless, the game of mafia is about analysing the quality of other people's reads, and it just annoys me that you want to limit content because it's day one in such an unapologetic fashion. You'll take large posts, pick at small details and act as if the entire case dissolves as a result. I don't think you've contributed anything serious to the discussion, it's mostly been wagonning and dismissal. It's obvious to me that you care much more about making my suspicion of you appear baseless than you do on trying to convince me that I'm wrong.

A lot of people will probably think I'm being hypocritical here, but I think there's a gulf of difference between the short posts I make and the short posts you make. Whereas I agree with something that is said usually, or else it's expressing a brief read based on what's happened recently, you just criticise so many people in a way that assumes they're scum. Your posts regarding BBM before you voted for him talked about a suspicion that you didn't articulate. You act like there's some storied opposition of BBM in your posts and it just doesn't appear. There's a post saying that you still don't buy his defense, when you never criticised it before, and another where you just correct him. The vote is a load and there's no support for it in your history, I think it's manufactured to find a new wagon and say you've defused some other wagon for evidence.

..

Even though I still think Ecto is town, MBL is producing the first elements of a case against Ecto that I find convincing. I am confused why anyone thinks that he's trying to help his teammate out or whatever. If this is bussing, this is some hardcore gritty bussing, not friendly advice. Maybe Glork will feel like this is coming out now that he has pointed out the nature of MBL's posts, but I doubt that's true.

Ythill: Day one Yos wagon? You going to try for Glork next?

I'm considering moving back to chamber though, just because the inHim wagon is getting nothing from the town at the moment. No offense Shanba but I think a Yoscase is more likely to succeed than a Shanbacase. And they're both scum, so.

[Ythill]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. Could you clarify it?

Just saying that a wagon on me would satisfy some of the the need for vote movement.

Anyone up for an impromptu wagon on Yos?

... what the hell?

I kno, rite? Your buddying was a little much and with all the people hinting at suspicion on you, I'm interested to see who was serious.

Ythill: Day one Yos wagon? You going to try for Glork next?

Anything is possible. At this point I'd still lynch chamber over Ecto over (insert lots of names here) over UT.

So for me this is a serious accusation that I made. That he did something that is overtly scummy, claiming success for stopping something that he had also been the last vote on. You do not vote someone to L-3, remove your vote the next page and say that the wagon is successfully defused.

This is a really good point. I should take a closer look at inHim.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Hey Yosarian, take it from me: there's no reason to be voting for chamber currently. Try voting for Ectoplascum instead.

[MrBuddyLee]

@MBL:

I'm not going to answer all those questions. Could you, pretty please, quote the 3-4 you feel are most important?

Sure.
Please reconcile these two posts of yours which were made two hours apart:

Yos

had some convincing evidence I'd overlooked because I had taken the statement as

chamber

fishing for reactions, primarily from CES.

Anyone up for an impromptu wagon on Yos?
UNVOTE: chamber
VOTE: Yosarian2

and this one from a week earlier:

Town == Yos, Shanba, Gurgi, UT, inHim, MBL

Did you really cite Yos's word as your reason for voting chamber, and then promptly switch your vote from chamber to Yos?

Why would you expect anyone to "vote movement is protown!" to Yos if you don't even believe he's scum yourself? Or do you have a case you'd like to present? Were you dropped on the head as a child?

Also:
What's your current stance on Mert, Flameaxe, Huck, chamber and Ecto?

Also:
Is your current maniacal votehopping designed to obfuscate any possible benefit from analyzing your voting patterns when you're lynched as scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

MBL dies tomorrow.

It's been a week since you've said anything that could be remotely construed as conducive to catching scum. IH has the excuse of "broken computer"/"playing LoL". What's yours?

[Fritzler]

This is why no one likes MBL (in terms of Pro-town-ness or as a potential friend).

[Glork]

My "excuses"? I am a WoW addict, and I have a new girlfriend. FWIW, I'm also slacking in my other current game, something you can easily verify.

As far as an actual game-relevant reason goes... I also just can't get into this game. There are too many alpha players just throwing words at each other and not listening to one another, and this has been one of the more frustrating and less interesting D1s I've seen in a long time.

That said, I am quietly confident in my reads thus far. I'll get around to lynching you when the time comes, but Ecto does need to die first. I honestly just want to wait until some of the crap-flinging ends and bodies hit the floor.

[MrBuddyLee]

I have a new girlfriend.

Congratulations.

I am a WoW addict.

My condolences. I'll see you at midnight next Tuesday.

[Yosarian2]

I kno, rite? Your buddying was a little much and with all the people hinting at suspicion on you, I'm interested to see who was serious.

Look, if you want me to stop attacking people when they vote you for bad reasons, then you need to stop being so goddamned obvtown.

[Ythill]

Thanks MBL.

Please reconcile these two posts of yours...

Just because Yos pointed out something valid doesn't make him town. Just because I called him town doesn't mean he is. There's no harm in seeing how he acts with some votes on him or seeing who, of his attackers, will wagon him with added cooperation. He's been buddying to and chainsawing for me, and there were allegations that he's playing off-meta.

Why would you expect anyone to "vote movement is protown!" to Yos if you don't even believe he's scum yourself?

I don't really care where people move their votes. Already said that.

Or do you have a case you'd like to present?

Not really. I'm simply offering my vote to the "wagon Yos" crowd who has been muttering about a wagon on him being improbable. They have their own reasons.

Were you dropped on the head as a child?

What makes you think I'd remember if I had been?

What's your current stance on Mert, Flameaxe, Huck, chamber and Ecto?

All are officially on the scumlist except Huck who's tentatively null. I haven't seen much either way from BBM since my iso. Have seen a few little things from Mert which I've mentioned as they happened. Chamber looks like a bad guy and I'll definately swing my vote back over there at some point if he becomes a contender. Ecto I'm still on the fence about. I've seen things both ways, still willing to lend my vote there if needed, depending on who the alternatives are.

Yos is obviously off my town list but not so bad as the vote might lead you to believe. I penciled him in at null and I'm waiting to see what happens.

Is your current maniacal votehopping designed to obfuscate any possible benefit from analyzing your voting patterns when you're lynched as scum?

Heh. If I'm alive in the midgame, you're going to laugh about this. Why aren't you voting for me?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I just noticed that you failed to answer my question, Ythill. Please do so.

[Ythill]

Sorry, I meant to.

Ythill, would you ever go overboard in connecting yourself to a partner in a sort of refuge in audacity?

Would

I? Maybe, depending on the situation.

Have

I? No, not in any of my three scumgames. Historically and theory-wise, I'm more the bussing type.

[MrBuddyLee]

This is why no one likes MBL (in terms of Pro-town-ness or as a potential friend).

Were you dropped on the head as a child?

What makes you think I'd remember if I had been?

[inHimshallibe]

I'll respond to Gurgi after work; been thinking a lot about what he said.

[CrashTextDummie]

I reread the game.

UT remains the most likely scum candidate. People who defend him on the basis that "his wagon was based on nothing" need to reread. The "joke" was

not

the only thing he was accused of, as he insinuated in his defense post. His reaction to the initial accusation, the fact that he made up "inconsistencies" on my part in order to justify keeping his "joke" vote on and his subsequent clamming up are all indicative of him being scum. As does his terrible Fritzler vote and his subsequent admission that the Fritzler vote was terrible while simultaneously defending it. As does his claim that he's "tunneling" on his wagonners when he hasn't actually provided any differentiated analysis of his wagon. He claims that he was suspicious of Fritzler for pushing "super hard" for his lynch, yet he completely ignored Fritzler when he was doing the same to me. I don't buy anything he's selling. He's done nothing, nada, zilch of any worth whatsoever. And don't give me that "that's just UT for you" crap, Ythill.

Speaking of Ythill, large portions of his play are bothering me. This includes his conduct towards myself (including accusing me of "casting around for a scapegoat" without being able to back it up), his baseless defense of UT and outright refusal to explain said defense, his conduct towards Ectomancer (specifically his unvoting as soon as Ectowagon was beginning to pick up steam), his bet-proposal towards chamber and the surrounding exchange, the Shanba "slip", his recent Yos vote, his goading Ecto and UT into forming a "voting block", his asking to be wagoned and probably a few other things I can't remember offhand. There's hardly anything coming from him that makes sense to me from a protown perspective, and I felt on more than one occasion that he was manufacturing reasons to attack people. Would not be opposed to wagon.

I have a pretty good feeling that MBL is town (which I'm sure he won't shut up about until the end of the game now), and I have a growing feeling that Glork is not. His stance on MBL is crap and I think he knows it. The last game I've played in where these two players were on opposite sides, I managed to sniff out the scum based on their interactions. I think they're both likely to deliberately provoke the other by ways of attacks when scum based on their history. Besides, I still think a Glork wagon would do this town some good on principle. It's not too late.

I am witholding judgement on Ectomancer. I am notoriously bad at reading his type of player. The case against him has merrit (particularly as outlined by MBL), but his defense sounds genuine, if disguided. I'd vote him at deadline, but not under any other circumstance as things currently stand.

Shanba pinged on my scumdar, mostly for the sleep-deprieved post some people have praised as pro-town. His stance on both Glork and Yos was basically "they're not doing what I expect them to be doing, IGMEOT". I largely disagree with his push against inHim. Most everything else he's posted has been wishy-washy.

The last person I could be convinced to vote is Flameaxe. His only post of relevance that wasn't UT-wagon related is an incredibly vapid analysis post which inHim was right on the money to call out. He spent the rest of his time defending himself, and not in a way I found convincing.

Off the table for me today:
MBL, stark, inHim, Mert

Everyone not mentioned I don't currently lean either way on. Also, IH sucks.

Yos:
Could you please summarize your case against chamber in one paragraph?

I would like to see a push towards a lynch. If not UT, then one of (Ythill, Glork, Shanba, Flameaxe). Go go.

[Patrick]

DrippingGoofball will be replacing IH. Untrod Tripod has also asked to be replaced.

[DrippingGoofball]

Oooo-wee!

Hey Ythill, who's the scum?

[Lord Gurgi]

Favoritism.

[chamber]

Favoritism.

I prefer to think she's just trying to get a read on who his team mates are before voting for him.

[Patrick]

ChannelDelibird replaces Untrod Tripod.

[ChannelDelibird]

ChannelDelibird replaces Untrod Tripod.

Can I get a hell yeah?

Great to be playing with you all. I'll be reading up over the next day or so depending on how verbose y'all are being.

Unvote

if applicable.