Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[DrippingGoofball]

Deadline extension would be nice.

[Fritzler]

I'd rather see Ecto lynched than MBL. The former is worth more information, the latter is more obviously town. Either is bad though.

Yeah, bad guys maybe.

[Ythill]

Said the scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm up for a Fritzler lynch. He's not voting me. He's scared to look scummy doing it. Because he's scum.

[Shanba]

Hey DGB I posted!

Post back?

[DrippingGoofball]

You're still voting InHim, I am unimpressed.

[Shanba]

You're still voting InHim, I am unimpressed.

Weeell I could switch my vote up. But I'm not switching to ecto. And other than ecto inhim is still the biggest wagon (or at least was at last vc). So why would I?

[DrippingGoofball]

Have you checked MBL lately?

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm posting from a phone.. multiple cut n pastes suck.

Hey, Channel, go vote Ectomancer. Both Glrok and I have determined that he's scum.

CES, didn't I also help determine he is scum? And by determine, I mean vote for him because he is scum.

Are DGB, Fritz, and I really the only ones who smell a rat here?

Glork, what made you think Fritz "smelled a rat" at the time of your post here? From reading the thread alone, it looks like he was firmly on Ecto as scum at the time.

[Shanba]

Have you checked MBL lately?

So he's at 4? He's an even worse wagon than Ecto, tbqh. As Ecto is a townie playing weirdly whereas MBL is a townie playing fairly well.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Ectomancer (5) -- stark, MrBuddyLee, Cogito Ergo Sum, Mert, Yosarian2
Ythill (2) -- HackerHuck, chamber
ChannelDelibird (1) -- Flameaxe
inHimshallibe (3) -- Lord Gurgi, Shanba, ChannelDelibird
Mert (1) -- Ythill
DrippingGoofball (1) -- CrashTextDummie
MrBuddyLee (4) -- Glork, DrippingGoofball, Fritzler, Ectomancer
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- inHimshallibe

Not voting: None
18 alive, 10 to lynch

Sorry, but the deadlines for the days are fixed. Well, nearly fixed. MBL's post reminded me to add the bit to the rules about extending the deadline if something strange happens, like site crash etc.

[Ectomancer]

Have you checked MBL lately?

So he's at 4? He's an even worse wagon than Ecto, tbqh. As Ecto is a townie playing weirdly whereas MBL is a townie playing fairly well.

Instead of voting for inhimshall, you should be voting

with

him. CES is scumbag.

[Glork]

I was going off of Fritz's earlier comments about you being hard to like. He's the only other person who I could remember off the top of my head who had expressed any firm anti-MBL opinion.

[ChannelDelibird]

Dense game is dense. >_< I don't know what else I was expecting. I'll be fully up to speed within 18 hours.

I'm not going to be on an MBL wagon today. inHim is still the place to be. I'll move to Ecto if I have to but I still want to go over Yos before I commit to that.

[Yosarian2]

He says his scumhunting is reasonable for day 1, and then he says that he hasn't done enough scumhunting. (...) Sure, if you discount all the scumhunting Ecto has done, then Ecto hasn't scumhunted.

That's a pretty extreme misrepesentation of what I said. In an effort to be fair to Ecto, and to explain my point of view, I pointed out every single instance where Ecto had scumhunted, all 3 of they. I said that THOSE THREE THINGS were reasonable examples of day 1 scumhunting, but that it wasn't nearly enough, and, more importantly, he never followed up on any of it; instead, he pretty much backed down from, for example, his Gurgi read as soon as challanged, and never mentioned it again. I was also trying to figure out what, exactally, he was trying to say with mert, because I couldn't even figure out what he was getting at, even though he attacked MBL for what might or might not have been a misunderstanding about his "attacks" on mert.

He ignored all of that, and refused to answer any of my questions, and instead acted in an increasingly scummy way the more pressure was put on him.

If you want to defend Ecto, feel free, but it'd be more useful if you were to defend him against the attacks people were actually making against him, instead of taking quotes out of context to create silly strawmen to attack.

[Yosarian2]

On an unrelated note, I don't get the votes on CES at all. CES is obviously town here.

Obv town:
Ythill
CES
Glork
Dripping Goofball

Likely town:
Fritzler

Wierd/confusing/borderline scummy
Shanba
Inhim

Scum
chamber
Ectomancer

[Lord Gurgi]

I like it, Ecto. Tailing.

unvote
vote: CES

I think you're in claim range gogogo.

Scuuuuuuuuuuuuuum

Hasn't the Ecto wagon aborted yet? Given the choice at deadline, I'll pick Ecto over MBL, so people know.

[Ectomancer]

Scum rule #3 - Carve up the town. You guys have done that admirably. Especially effective in a deadline situation.

[Ectomancer]

On an unrelated note, I don't get the votes on CES at all. CES is obviously town here.

Obv town:
CES
Dripping Goofball

How many games are you playing? Because you aren't reporting on

this

one.

[Ectomancer]

If you want to defend Ecto, feel free, but it'd be more useful if you were to defend him against the attacks people were actually making against him, instead of taking quotes out of context to create silly strawmen to attack.

Why don't you try to quantify that attack exactly, because there has been nothing but slander, derisive comments, false information and wild speculation based upon that false information. There isn't a single worthy item that I have disputed or shown to be flat out

wrong

. Many of the things you accuse me of are a result of the tactics that 2 or 3 of you used, combined with 3 or 4 more people's comments, yeah, it is damn easy to find shit someone didn't answer to,

especially when they posted that their time was limited

, and yet the wall's of text by MBL based upon false statements kept coming. You yourself used scummy argumentative tactics to keep the Ectomancer ball rolling all the way into this deadline situation where, although the majority of town does not want to lynch me, they feel the must do so to stay out of a No Lynch situation. You sir are the CAUSE of that shit. This wagon would have disintegrated days ago without you constantly egging it on from the sidelines.

You people don't want to lynch MBL? Then lynch Yosarian damnit

unvote, vote Yosarian2

[MrBuddyLee]

I owe an updated read on Ecto. The last time I addressed him, he had just posted a list of reads:

I would be down with lynching MBL, possibly Yos2 (cmon, you know when you are keeping the ball rolling)
I would listen to you on Flameaxe or Mert or CES or chamber or CTD
These people are likely town and it would be difficult to sway me (in no particular order): inhimshallibe, Glork, Fritzler, Shanba, Hackerhuck
I put a bee in stark's bonnet. That's my fault. He could react better, but I wouldn't lynch him, though I dont know if he's town. I don't think I would lynch Ythill either. Gurgi isn't a good lynch either. I think IH might be playing, Im not certain.

He also said he thought UT (CDB) was town who he could work together with.

I asked for his reasons on the "listen to you" people and he later clarified that they were null reads, not suspicions.

His reads were ok at the time but thin on reasoning behind them. Two scum reads (Yos and MBL) with a significant OMGUS element to both. MBL had willfully misinterpreted Ecto's Gurgi-Mert-Fritzler read or some such. Yos wasn't listening to him, and was attacking mindlessly.

Three of the "likely town" people (inHim, Shanba, Huck) are the three people who said Ecto was sounding like town. Gurgi also went from #3 to #8 on Ecto's list based on a Gurgi "Ecto sounds town" post alone.

One of Ecto's "likely town" reads was voting him (Glork) accusing him of being scumpartners with me. Glork had recently taken Ecto's side in a MBL-Ecto exchange. Ecto's last town read was Fritzler, who was voting Untrod Tripod at the time. I'm curious to know how Ecto gets "These people are likely town and it would be difficult to sway me" off of Fritzler when Fritzler is voting one of Ecto's town reads. The only thing I can guess is that he saw Fritzler asking Glork for an Untrod Tripod vote and getting it. Or it could be carryover from much earlier when Fritzler called out Mert as scum for not feeling the CTD wagon.

Regardless, Ecto's reads at that time were pretty self-centered. "This guy is attacking me, he's scum." "This guy is agreeing with me or defending me, he's town." That's a generalization on my part, but it holds across at least seven players. (Huck, Shanba, inHim, Yos, MBL, Gurgi, Mert). Confirmation of my generalization comes with the timing of Ecto's switch on Gurgi and the timing of Ecto's recent attack on CES. By and large, you attack Ecto and you move up on his scumlist. You defend him and you move down.

Ecto's attacks don't seem to have a great consistency or followthrough to them. I don't get the sense that he's read/processed my posts other than the ones directly involving him. I don't see any depth in his attacks on Yos or CES. No evidence that Ecto's looked into Yos's push on chamber/thoughts on Ythill or CES's comments on Ythill/chamber/Yos/CDB. No mention of CES's accusation that Yos and Ecto might be scum together.

Ecto has said recently that he looked at the competing wagons at the time (inHim and Ythill) and found those two guys to be gut protown. They've both stated that they have town reads on Ecto, making Ythill #8 to fit the pattern here of Ecto seeming to determine alignments based on who's attacking/defending him.

Once each on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, Ecto mentioned that he had a gut town read on me from "some post in the 300s". He attacked Glork and DGB in the same post Sunday for "setting up a MBL lynch next" among other things. It was the first time Ecto seemed interested in analyzing a whole lot outside people's direct opinions of him. He didn't like the Glork or DGB attacks on MBL. This post of Ecto's was Sunday, 7:38 AM.

Then DGB confirmed her read of Ecto as scum.
Then Glork ostensibly admitted to :superbadposting:
Then DGB switched her vote to MBL.
Then Glork indicated no interest in voting Ecto anymore.
Then DGB asks Ecto (who she thinks is scum) for his voteswitch to MBL.
Then Ecto freaks out on CES.
Then DGB suggests CES might be scum pissed that the wagon on Ecto (who she thinks is scum) is fading.
Then Ecto votes MBL alongside two people he just attacked for their bad attack on MBL.

Could be explained as survival instincts kicking in. But it just doesn't feel like he's aching for the truth to come out. I suppose it's not in his best interests to post what he found "gut town" about the target of a rival wagon. Ecto, I still want to know what the gut town read you got on me was, and how much weight you gave to it.

After all that blah-de-blah, I don't feel like I have a definitive read on Ecto. I definitely don't think he's reading the game as thoroughly as some. His scum "reads" are reactive, not proactive--they're all on people attacking him. He clears people as town if they find him townish, by and large.

Can I see him doing these things as town? Yes. He'd be bad town, in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there. For example, I think he should be considering his "instincts" on Glork and DGB before voting alongside them.

Can I see him doing these things as scum? Sure. In his newbie game with Mert, he was fairly convincing. (I don't think he was anywhere near as angry as caught scum in that game, Mert. http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=5193 ) Voting based on other people's perceptions of you is one of many possible ways to catch scum, and the excessive weight it has in Ecto's internal formula is a problem for me. I still need to read Yos more thoroughly and CES more critically, but my initial impression after reading pages 15-24 like five times is that Ecto's reads and arguments on CES and Yos are poor. His "read" of gut town on me is correct. His vote on me is poor and doesn't match his gut.

Panicky town or panicky scum? Can't say for sure. Can look to other players' behavior surrounding him to try to help figure it out. Glork and Fritz bailed on the Ectowagon when I said I was considering unvoting and asked people on the wagon for reasons behind their votes. A few others stayed. A bunch of people have expressed willingness to lynch Ecto as a deadline option. That's kind of how I feel. I'd like to explore a few other people first, not that we really have time to do so, but Glork's and DGB's recent behaviors have been bizarre and inconsistent.

I think my uncertainty on Ecto has been consistently clear, from:

How are we supposed to ascertain your alignment right now? You look more like scum than anyone in this game at the moment, and you're being intentionally obtuse in a futile attempt to make your pursuers look bad. It's not going to work, and you're going to rack up justified votes.

If you're town, intentionally giving everyone valid reasons to vote you doesn't help the town. If you're scum, you're boring.

to

If I had the dayvig I'd pop Ecto right now. I'm not confident in his alignment, though--he hasn't given us much to work with

to

Mert, Glork, CES, Yos, DGB, why specifically are you voting Ecto?

I just reviewed people's stated reasons for being on the wagon and they're terrible or mealymouthed or nonexistent.

Stark, is the guy scum or are we just removing him from the game for intransigence? Or likely both?

Fritz and CES, is the guy scum?

Tempted to unvote. Yos, is ecto scum? Your heart doesn't sound like it believes it in your last post where you voted him.

I've been accused (by only Glork and DGB, as far as I'm aware) of coaching Ecto, making intentionally bad arguments to protect Ecto, setting up Ecto for a bad lynch, and using Ecto as a tool to frame everyone else on his wagon.

Truth is, I still don't know Ecto's alignment, and neither do most of you. And the way to make progress on that front is by asking Ecto for clarification on his suspicions and by asking other people their opinions of Ecto. And that's pretty much exactly what I've been doing.

[Ectomancer]

@Patrick

- Flameaxe hasn't posted in 7 days (I don't count the one on the 3rd that says feel free to replace me as a post). You are seriously restricting my ability to defend myself from a lynch when every single vote counts in this situation and there is a player missing from the game.

[Ectomancer]

MBL, the problem is you are wrong. You especially, and Yos as well were both making false statements. That makes you scummy in my eyes. I had time for nothing more than shorthand and I expressed that. Your idea that I only attacked those on my wagon were flat wrong. Ythill was my initial attacker, stark has been a consistent attacker. I've not attacked either. My Fritzler read was my very first read of the game and I

stated it explicitly

Glork also missed entirely a case I made and has since owned up to that fact, otherwise, he also was adding to the bullshit wagon by pandering to false or misleading statements. Fritzler being likely town doesn't mean he is omnipotent and in fact by definition he

isn't

and thus, yes, we can disagree on players

and I can forgive him for it and also not follow his opinion

. CES is making these last ditch "rescue the Ecto" wagon by lying, making false statements simply to drag this just

that much closer to deadline

. He suddenly has all these revelations about the situation back then, I mean SRSLY detailed, thought out opinions,

yet he never said a damn word back then

. Am I to believe that crap? Is that town? He's a scumbag.

Your deliberate actions that Ive detailed outweigh any "gut" read and you know that. Nitpicking at me because I choose a case built on your actions over a dozen pages rather than a gut read 300+ posts into game in a deadline situation is ludicrous. Yes, I choose you over me if you are the other wagon.

By the way, that was another nice pretty wall of text that looked really good on the surface, but underlying it is sitting on rotten presumptions. To whit: Your accusation that I accuse anyone on my wagon is flat out and demonstrably wrong. The idea that only labeled those people town who called me town is also flat out and demonstrably wrong. In order to make those accusations, you have to ignore the fact that people like Fritzler were declared town by me way before then and that players like Ythill who attacked me were never declared scum. In order to say I'm not following my attack on Glork because Im voting with him, you have to ignore the fact that Glork addressed the problem I had with him and I acknowledged that it was straight up.

In short, your timeline only works because you leave out half the events. You also have to leave out the fact that people making false accusations are damn straight scum to me. How many of you have now had to go back and tell me "Oh yeah, I didnt read that", "I missed that part", "Oh yeah, I see now where you did, but....blah blah blah"? Huh? And none of you acknowledge that the fact that you were basing your opinion of of totally WRONG information throws out almost every argument you made about that shit in every post since then? None of you acknowledge that when I see you making false statements about what I have or haven't said that I have

every right

to call you scum whether you be on my wagon or not, and Oh yeah,

I fully expect scum to be on my wagon so cut it with the OMGUS bullshit accusations

. In order to call it OMGUS you have to ignore every VALID point I've made against you.

You need to check your own town objectiveness MBL.

[Ectomancer]

Holy shit man, I went back to look to see who MBL might be willing to vote that isn't us and I find that

MBL hasn't done any scum hunting

. Seriously. He has been about nothing but attacking Ecto. Fucking HELL can you seriously attack me for spending all my time defending myself?? Geezus christ, that doesn't include all the other people I've had to deal with. What the hell???


MBL - WHO IS YOUR LIST OF SCUM? GIVE DETAILED REASONS ON EACH.

[Ectomancer]

@The rest of you lame bitches. I've refuted everything said and pointed out where everything you thought had a point was all based on LIES or total misinformation. For those attacking me for "not scum hunting" need to go read MBL's post's in reverse and see that you have to go back nearly 2 weeks to find a post that isn't talking to Ecto, about Ecto, or demanding someone else weigh in with their opinion on Ecto.

That's what I mean by scummy argumentative tactics

and if you are a veteran of mafia you know the type of tactics I mean[/i]. That's what pisses me off most. I'm should'ing on you. My fault, but you SHOULD recognize when someone is being mugged.

Overall, I don't care much to lynch MBL. I'd much rather lynch CES or Yosarian, but I

will

lynch MBL today for his tactics.