Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[inHimshallibe]

By the way, DGB, I'm afraid to pose the obvious question, but why did you claim vig completely unprovoked?

She didn't do this, btw.

[Shanba]

so I'm gonna take a ferry instead of a plane, it seems. What does that mean for you lovely people? It means I'm going to take this thread and ponder. Deeeply ponder. But I'll only have the thread open until about some time early tomorrow, so nothing post that gets the benefit of pondering.

In the meantime, I already did some reading last night. Ythill is rising up my scumdar. I dislike the non-committal attack on chamber and the attack on ecto is pretty silly too - from early day 1. There's kinks I need to work out before I can get all my thoughts on this down, though.

DrippingGoofball: you don't think I have enough townreads?

Ether, how much of the game have you/are you intending to read? Who are your current scum suspects?

Yos, why is Ythill town?

[Lord Gurgi]

She's DGB, whatchuwant? CDB's still at six votes right?

I'm a sarcastic guy, so I'm going to be sarcastic. That's not holding you back, that's you maintaining suspicion for a later lynch without following through for a bad reason. Had you said that you weren't voting me because I'm not likely to get lynched then I might believe you. Oh hey I make jokes, more revelations from inHim. Yeah screw it. I'm getting back on scumwagon. UNVOTE: chamberVOTE: inHim

inHim: No she's just asking who she should vig. Which is different, clearly.

[inHimshallibe]

This is going to be largely unsatisfying for both of us if you're town, Gurgi. Really don't think that's the case, though.

Is this where I can call OMGUS and prance about in tights and with my OMGUS Shield like Captain America?

[CrashTextDummie]

Answering questions for others is a big no-no, inHim.

[Lord Gurgi]

What you mean like I could have called on you the entire rest of the game? Oh wait, no, because that's a crappy reason as ever it was.

[Lord Gurgi]

Answering questions for others is a big no-no, inHim.

I more or less did the same thing?

[Yosarian2]

I certainly agree with the pressure on CDB, he's a pretty bad lurker right now and we need to hear more from him.

If you agree with the pressure, why aren't you supporting it?

I am supporting it. That's what i was doing in that line you just quoted

If you're asking "why didn't I attack him earlier"; meh, the early wagon on UT seemed a bit weak, he CDB already had plenty of pressure on him, and I had better targets.

[inHimshallibe]

Answering questions for others is a big no-no, inHim.

Oh, so you were laying a trap?

Sorry.

[inHimshallibe]

Would be rather surprised if UT ends up scum after all.

[CrashTextDummie]

I am not

quite

asking "why didn't you attack him earlier", I am asking "why did you completely block out his very existence all game long until specifically asked about it, even in posts where you listed and commented on the vast majority of players in the game, when he clearly fits your scum-profile as outlined by yourself when justifying your attack against a town player, both when CDB/UT was first wagoned, wagoned for a second time and during the substantial time inbetween where he was lurking and not scumhunting."

[Lord Gurgi]

Would be rather surprised if UT ends up scum after all.

So why were you on his wagon?

[CrashTextDummie]

Answering questions for others is a big no-no, inHim.

Oh, so you were laying a trap?

Sorry.

No, I was not laying a trap. I really wanted to know why she is doing what she is doing, whatever that may be. I really don't see why you feel qualified to answer this for her, nor do I see why the fact that I don't want to hear the answer from you makes you think that I was laying a trap.

Gurgi, the talk about sarcasm is befuddling me. Please point out where you were doing "more or less the same thing".

[Yosarian2]

Mm. Yeah, I could see MBL as scum. His scumhunting so far this game has been kind of disappointing

Why specifically has my scumhunting been disappointing this game?

Your attacks on Ecto were pretty solid, although since we now know that wagon was wrong, that's rather null. However, other then the Ecto wagon, you haven't given much in the way of useful reads on people; a lot of interesting questions, but I don't know what, if anything, you've gotten out of the answers to all of those questions. The only other person you've actually attacked all game is me; perhaps I'm not in the best position to judge the quality of that scumhunting, but I'm not especally impressed by your logic there either, which mostly seems to be "Yos is attacking chamber strongly, but chamber dosn't look all that scummy to me." I mean, it's day 2, and that's the best reasoning you can come up with to attack someone?

and I still think it's odd he was voting nobody at all at the end of day 1.

Why specifically did you find that odd?

Because when a wagon collapses due to a doc claim 2 days before deadline, it's vital that pro-town get their act together damn fast and scramble to try to put together some kind of decent wagon, in order to avoid a no-lynch. At the very least, I'd expect every pro-town person in that situation to put a vote down on somebody, and to try to do something get a lynch together, either supporting a wagon, voting for a suspect, trying to start a new wagon, sheeping on someone who seems to make sense; basically, doing something useful. Not having a vote down on anyone at all seems bizarre to me; it seems almost like a statement that you'd rather no-lynch then support any wagon at all, which doesn't make any sense, or else a sign that you just didn't really care that much what happened. I even pointed this out and asked you about it towards the end of day 1, and you still showed no inclination to vote for anyone. Did you really have no suspects at all and no town reads at all?

[Yosarian2]

3) Are you suggesting that me and Ythill are scum together? Do you think that makes sense considering everything that's been going on this game?

This is a very strange conclusion to draw. Why would I be making scumpairs before we have any known scum? It's too easy to draw connections between any two players since everything is either distancing or buddying if you want it to be. So I don't really care too much what your relation is to each other till one of you is 6 feet under. Why do you ask this? Do you feel it's ridiculous to have you on the same team so one or the other only must be scum?

Fair enough. Just trying to get a feel for what, exactly, you are saying.

I see question marks, but okay.

There's a good reason i didn't answer those questions, Gurgi. I asked you if you were implying that me and Ythill were scum together, because I wanted to know exactally what you were saying. You said no, you weren't implying that, so I dropped that line of questioning, which kind of makes all that irrelevant. Like, if you weren't trying to make scum connections, then how could I answer a question like "Why would I be making scumpairs" from you?

Anyway, care to respond to any of the actual points of my post, Gurgi, or are you going to just keep nitpicking irrelevancies?

[Porochaz]

Noone going to mention yet another ythill weird unvote? I havent had the time to do any rereads yet but at the same time Im more happy to leave my vote on ythill now

vote ythill

[Lord Gurgi]

Answering questions for others is a big no-no, inHim.

Oh, so you were laying a trap?

Sorry.

No, I was not laying a trap. I really wanted to know why she is doing what she is doing, whatever that may be. I really don't see why you feel qualified to answer this for her, nor do I see why the fact that I don't want to hear the answer from you makes you think that I was laying a trap.

Gurgi, the talk about sarcasm is befuddling me. Please point out where you were doing "more or less the same thing".

Not sarcasm, I commented on your question as well but you only slapped inHim on the wrist for it.

Yos: Your latest post directed at me (that I assume you are referencing when you say address my arguments) just laments me taking my ball and going home. I don't see anything to answer. Can you link/quote what you want addressed? I don't like that I'm going to be dragged into an argument here.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Your latest post directed at me (that I assume you are referencing when you say address my arguments) just laments me taking my ball and going home. I don't see anything to answer. Can you link/quote what you want addressed? I don't like that I'm going to be dragged into an argument here.

I'm really not trying to "drag you into an argument" or whatever. I just find it odd that when I made a post explaining my thoughts on your play this game, explaining why I'm having trouble getting a read on you, and wondering why you're playing your cards so close to your chest here, your response was ignore everything I say except to make a sarcastic suggestion that I go back and answer questions you asked that seem to be completely rhetorical and unanswerable.

Yos, why is Ythill town?

I feel like I've already answered this question half a dozen times. Most recently, in this post:

The above post has convinced me that DGB and Glork are probably town (and also kinda reflecting on Glork's frustration with getting sheeped on), and that it's probably safe to sheep on you with CES. With Ythill, I'mma need more examples.

Well, for one thing, when I decided on day 1 that Ythill looked obvtown, and went after people who were attacking him for scummy reasons, Ythill's reaction was to become paranoid that I was trying to manipulate him and so he started attacking me, and really hasn't stopped since. That's a townie reaction. The natural scum reaction to suddenly being defended by me would probably be to try to take advantage of it and buddy up with me more, not to do his best to pick a fight with me like he did.

Other stuff seems town, too. The first thing that made me think he was town was, when a few people said that we should "quicklynch IH before he flakes" and started a early-day-1-wagon (a pretty funny one, IMHO), he went in and white-knighted IH, going after chamber and calling it scummy, and generally decrying lurker lynches in general. Wrong from a theroetical perspective, but town.

Really, nothing Ythill's done makes any sense from a scum perspective.

Basically, what Glork said:

Ythill is also probably protown.

EBWOP: Wrong on, like, every level, but probably protown.

I could expound upon that further if you want me to, but I think that sums up most of the big points.

[CrashTextDummie]

Gurgi, if you mean this:

She's DGB, whatchuwant?

I consider this a non-answer. It's lazy and gives DGB too much slack, but I don't see it as a serious attempt to answer my question, unlike what inHim did.

[CrashTextDummie]

Oy Yos, this was directed at you:

I am not

quite

asking "why didn't you attack him earlier", I am asking "why did you completely block out his very existence all game long until specifically asked about it, even in posts where you listed and commented on the vast majority of players in the game, when he clearly fits your scum-profile as outlined by yourself when justifying your attack against a town player, both when CDB/UT was first wagoned, wagoned for a second time and during the substantial time inbetween where he was lurking and not scumhunting."

[Lord Gurgi]

Yos: Your latest post directed at me (that I assume you are referencing when you say address my arguments) just laments me taking my ball and going home. I don't see anything to answer. Can you link/quote what you want addressed? I don't like that I'm going to be dragged into an argument here.

I'm really not trying to "drag you into an argument" or whatever. I just find it odd that when I made a post explaining my thoughts on your play this game, explaining why I'm having trouble getting a read on you, and wondering why you're playing your cards so close to your chest here, your response was ignore everything I say except to make a sarcastic suggestion that I go back and answer questions you asked that seem to be completely rhetorical and unanswerable.

They were meant more as accusations than actually questions. I did want you to go back there, because to me, when you ask if I think you are a pair with Ythill that implies paranoia. I was hoping you might address the possibility of you two as a pair, why it was silly or whatever. I suppose thinking it was all a joke is a reaction of its own. I don't think I'm playing my cards close to my chest, just not wanting to get into an argument with you. I feel like I've said this before, but as long as I am aware that I will most likely lose an argument against you, it will give 'strength' to an argument regardless of the strength of the argument on its own. Cases aren't judged on the inherent value of the case, but on how well the person argues the case. If I run my case up against yours, you will come out 'correct' because you will most likely win. Am I making sense here?

[Yosarian2]

Oy Yos, this was directed at you:

I am not

quite

asking "why didn't you attack him earlier", I am asking "why did you completely block out his very existence all game long until specifically asked about it, even in posts where you listed and commented on the vast majority of players in the game, when he clearly fits your scum-profile as outlined by yourself when justifying your attack against a town player, both when CDB/UT was first wagoned, wagoned for a second time and during the substantial time inbetween where he was lurking and not scumhunting."

A few days before deadline of day 1, I made one quick post where I made lists of players I thought were scum, and players I thought were town, to make clear who I'd be willing to lynch. Players I didn't have a read on at that point, I didn't mention. I mentioned 5 town reads, 4 scum reads and didn't mention the other 9 people in the game, including Lord Gurgi, MBL, CDB, and several others. I assume that's the post you're talking about, since I don't think I've had any other posts when I "listed the majority of players in the game" or whatever.

Perhaps I should have put a big, fat "null" list in the middle of that post, since it seems like people jump all over you these days if you don't mention every single person when you make a list, but it didn't seem necessary at the time; I would have figured that was implied.

In this case, yes, my read on CDB is null at the moment, and has been for most of the game. I have no interest in defending a lurker here, but so far his behavior does seem more consistent with "low activity person who's probably going to get replaced (of either alignment)" then with "scum deliberately flying under the radar for tactical reasons".

[CrashTextDummie]

I certainly agree with the pressure on CDB, he's a pretty bad lurker right now and we need to hear more from him.

I am supporting it. That's what i was doing in that line you just quoted

If you're asking "why didn't I attack him earlier"; meh, the early wagon on UT seemed a bit weak, he CDB already had plenty of pressure on him, and I had better targets.

In this case, yes, my read on CDB is null at the moment, and has been for most of the game. I have no interest in defending a lurker here, but so far his behavior does seem more consistent with "low activity person who's probably going to get replaced (of either alignment)" then with "scum deliberately flying under the radar for tactical reasons".

These three statements don't add up.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Your latest post directed at me (that I assume you are referencing when you say address my arguments) just laments me taking my ball and going home. I don't see anything to answer. Can you link/quote what you want addressed? I don't like that I'm going to be dragged into an argument here.

I'm really not trying to "drag you into an argument" or whatever. I just find it odd that when I made a post explaining my thoughts on your play this game, explaining why I'm having trouble getting a read on you, and wondering why you're playing your cards so close to your chest here, your response was ignore everything I say except to make a sarcastic suggestion that I go back and answer questions you asked that seem to be completely rhetorical and unanswerable.

They were meant more as accusations than actually questions. I did want you to go back there, because to me, when you ask if I think you are a pair with Ythill that implies paranoia. I was hoping you might address the possibility of you two as a pair, why it was silly or whatever.

I thought it was a really odd thing for you to imply, and if you were implying that, I wanted to know what your reasoning was. Me and Ythill have been interacting with each other all game in a wide variety of ways, and it seemed really odd to me that you'd suggest "Yos and Ythill are scum together" without then attempting to explain, for example, why Ythill's been trying to lynch me for most of the day if that's true. I was expecting you to come out with some elaborate theory of how me defending Ythill and him bussing me proved we were scum together, or something like that; I was kind of hoping you would, because then at least I'd be able to understand what your thought process was.

Also, "paranoia" is an odd accusation for you to use here. You said, and I quote:

Yos and Ythill are both probably-ish scum

I didn't know if you were suggesting a link or not in this sentence, so I asked. I hardly think that's unreasonable.

I don't think I'm playing my cards close to my chest, just not wanting to get into an argument with you. I feel like I've said this before, but as long as I am aware that I will most likely lose an argument against you, it will give 'strength' to an argument regardless of the strength of the argument on its own.

(shrug) Fine. Then don't argue with me. Go argue with someone else. Or make cases on people, or push some wagons, or share some reads or something.

For example, I'd love to hear you explain your case on InHim. I don't really see him as scum at the moment, and I'd be interested to hear why you do.

[Yosarian2]

I certainly agree with the pressure on CDB, he's a pretty bad lurker right now and we need to hear more from him.

I am supporting it. That's what i was doing in that line you just quoted

If you're asking "why didn't I attack him earlier"; meh, the early wagon on UT seemed a bit weak, he CDB already had plenty of pressure on him, and I had better targets.

In this case, yes, my read on CDB is null at the moment, and has been for most of the game. I have no interest in defending a lurker here, but so far his behavior does seem more consistent with "low activity person who's probably going to get replaced (of either alignment)" then with "scum deliberately flying under the radar for tactical reasons".

These three statements don't add up.

Yes, they do. If someone is null and lurking, the town should apply pressure on them until they post more, and only consider lynching him as a last resort, and then only if they don't have a better suspect. If someone is scummy and lurking, then the town should just lynch him. In this case, I think CDB is null and lurking, so I want the town to apply pressure to CDB until he posts more, which is exactly what I said in all three of those posts.