Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[Patrick]

Votecount

HackerHuck (2) -- Lord Gurgi, ChannelDelibird
Porochaz (1) -- Shanba
ChannelDelibird (1) -- chamber
Shanba (2) -- Glork, HackerHuck
Glork (2) -- Ythill, CrashTextDummie

Not voting: MrBuddyLee, Porochaz, Ether, Cogito Ergo Sum
12 alive, 7 to lynch

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Um, no it's not? You'd think there'd be a strongish information role somewhere. Naïve cop + one-shot cop + watcher is getting pretty convoluted for Patrick.

Not putting a strongish information role into an invitational with 4 out of 18 scum (which I agree is most likely) strikes me as entirely reasonable.

[HackerHuck]

Ether - do you think that 4 scums is the only option balance-wise with a vig and two sane cops?

I do not think that Patrick would, under any circumstances, put any number other than 4 scum into an 18-player game. (Also, a one-shot cop is not a full-blown cop in any way; stop pretending it is.)

Stop trying to misrepresent me. My point is that with your assumption set doesn't seem that reasonable. I would think that with four scum, there needs to be something to counterbalance the investigation abilities. Basically I think that what CES just said seems more likely.


...which leads me back to this post. Given the assumption set one has to make here, I would think the pro-town view would be to use the list of five and assess the validity of your assumptions. Instead, you take a soft stand on seeing whether we should just try to lynch someone in that group.

Town, assuming they're not fakeclaiming and not a godfather and Glork is a sane cop
Ythill
Crash
Shanba
Glork
MBL
HackerHuck

Town because duh:
Ether

That's seven people(!). If they're all town, then that puts exactly one townie in {chamber, ChannelDelibird, Cogito Ergo Sum, Lord Gurgi, Porochaz}.

Is that plausible? I'm not saying that rhetorically; I'm just wondering if we can write off one or two people of those people from their associations with each other and go in for the kill.

I'll ask you this. Is it likely that four of the people in that list are scum?


On the flip-side, if you're right in that CTD and Glork are both truthful and sane then I'd say that your behaviour is extremely inconsistent with scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

Trying to make sure I have a handle on your reads, Ether:

* Glork = town because he sucks this game. pure meta.
* Shanba = town because of http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 7#p2676637 pure meta.
* Ythill = town because of his behavior around Ecto, etc.
* CTD =

scum because he's not the vig you thought he was

town because cop counterclaim
* Huck = scum because ?
* MBL = scum because setup speculation, vote mbl

Ether, I see you've decided Shanba is town based on tone/meta. You switched your opinion based on one post of his that did almost no scumhunting. Fine. But you've stated flatly that Huck is scum while giving absolutely no evidence to support it. While asking others repeatedly to provide evidence and opinions on Huck. After a post a while back when you said Huck tends to get lynched a lot as town despite being absolutely right about everything.

So please elaborate upon why you feel he's scum. And why CTD and Glork are both town. ffs, you found Crash scummy yesterday at 6pm and suddenly you believe his counterclaim of a cop you've felt all game is town? You thought Crash was town when you thought he was the vig but then he was scum because he wasn't the vig but now he's not scum because he's a cop. aargh, there's almost no actual evaluation of players' votes or suspicions from you in this game. It's all setup speculation and meta. Very hard to read. Your level of interest and participation is high, which I see as townish. But yeah, why's Huck scum?

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm rereading Glork at the moment, about halfway through. Basically what I'm getting so far is the usual - Glork seems entirely reasonable, even if I don't always agree with him (Shanba on day 2 is an example of this, I've seen Shanba as town from the start). The thing about Glork being a cop, though, is that at the start of Day 2, just after having got an innocent on MBL, Glork's first post of the day is asking HH why he omitted MBL from a potential-scum list. That just doesn't scan to me. There's being subtle about crumbing innocents and there's actively pointing the other way. Just doesn't seem like a cop move to me.

Unvote, vote: Glork

Still reading, though.

[MrBuddyLee]

The thing about Glork being a cop, though, is that at the start of Day 2, just after having got an innocent on MBL, Glork's first post of the day is asking HH why he omitted MBL from a potential-scum list. That just doesn't scan to me. There's being subtle about crumbing innocents and there's actively pointing the other way. Just doesn't seem like a cop move to me.

Unvote, vote: Glork

Still reading, though.

It doesn't read to me like Glork's insinuating I'm scum there. Maybe I'm overreading it, but I don't see any MBL-lynch intent from Glork whatsoever D2. I see him as spotting an omission from Huck on a player Glork knows the alignment of, and wondering why Huck might make such a slip.

It kind of boggles my mind to think that as scum, Glork would so obviously set up a cop claim/result overnight (innocent on MBL N1) and very clearly telegraph it all day D2, yet somehow manage to slip up and show suspicion of MBL in his first post of the day?

[Porochaz]

Ok Im back from funeral and moving back into uni. Let me fetch my notes and I will continue, but seeing as ythill claimed, I will probably truncate them a bit.

[Ythill]

It kind of boggles my mind to think that as scum, Glork would so obviously set up a cop claim/result overnight (innocent on MBL N1) and very clearly telegraph it all day D2, yet somehow manage to slip up and show suspicion of MBL in his first post of the day?

From a Glork-as-scum PoV, it plays out more like this... typical Glork trying to bus MBL but too few sheep in the town; N2, buddies remind him that everyone knows his meta and he comes in changing his stance in a way that seems forced because... it is. Near the end of D2 he's sweating because of the sloppy change, and he thinks that the best defense will be to fake-claim cop, so he starts setting that up. Which would also explain why he jumped straight to a claim when I brought up his inconsistency on MBL.

Otherwise I'm really curious why Glork decided to claim under little pressure with a doc in a body-bag. I'm also curious why he's so quiet right now. On the other hand, a nagging doubt keeps telling me that scum-Glork fakes cop with at least one guilty.

It seems like I need to put some serious thought into this game. Though it may be true that abstaining from a claimed cop lynch is the correct play today, I still think it's important that I fully determine how I feel about those claims. For that reason, I'm going to change the order of my iso reads.

No matter what we decide about the claims, I'd like people to get their votes off of HH and Shanba, and keep them off of MBL. I shouldn't need to explain to this player list that "cop" innocent results weight the odds in favor of the "target" being town. Either we lynch Glork/CTD or we trust him to be town + sane for now. Srsly.

If we do not lynch Glork/CTD, we must hang one of Prozac/CES/Gurgi/CDB/Chamber/Ether. Even if Glork is scum, it's likely that 2-3 scum are among those six players. The only one I'd rule out completely is Gurgi. Maybe Ether too, if we're lynching from a Glork-is-town PoV.

Also, since we're in a target-rich environment now, I'm going to full claim. I only had two bullets and have used both. Hence my promise to Glork that I would not be shooting town tonight. Also the reason for my early claim.

[Porochaz]

K Lets get started on this last part, these notes are taken up to the point of the last few, I have (up until about page 80) been keeping track. So my thoughts might not be 100% up to date.

7. HackerHuck

Page 9. The rare time HH posts, he fails. - 2.5
Dont have a post number - votes mert with weak reasoning at deadline when she has no chance to defend. - 1.5
Post 765 Lulz at this, 1 scum in 5 listed names... - 1
Post 880 Disagree but written well.
Post 1348Finally something useful[/url] + 1

Total = - 4

I found early on HH only really posted when he needed to and was not being very useful. I havent really agreed with much he has said especially in regards to Mert but having said that, his latter posts have been a lot better.

Overall: Null

8. Ether/Stark

Page 2. - "Glork, alliance?" (random) - 0.5
Post 112 - Great post against Ecto, didnt pick it up + 3
Post 129 - + 2
Post 212? - Another Good Post + 2

Ive written it down as 217, I think I meant 212.

Total = + 6.5

Starks posts against Ecto have been really convincing, he has posted regularly and has often caught stuff I have missed. Ether hasn't really entered the game but I would like her to get involved more

which I see she has

Overall: Town

9. ChanelDelibird/UT

Post 99 - Way to serious - 1.5
Page 34/35 - Not (squiggle)?

I really dont know what this says but it might reference the lurking or less likely Post 858 which I havent put anything against but in retrospect is a horrible horrible post.
CDB's contributions Day 2. - Literally Nothing - 3

I may have been frustrated with him when I put that down

Total: - 4.5

Lurkerwagon 2.0 CDB should be lynched just for lurking...

(Truncated, this is me ranting at him, a bit hypocritically)

In the end, regardless of what people say a lurkervote I do not feel is a good lynchng vote, and with nothing else to go on in regards to him...

Overall: Null

10. Ythill

Im just going to highlight points here

A lot of the early negatives may have been playstyle based. I felt that Post 107 and Post 93 were good posts and felt it frustrating that only Ythill had mentioned it. It got worse after Ythill jumped bandwagons in Post 218. I don't get the pont of Post 280 Even after he semi-explains it. He loses points for the Mert wagon. He then gains a few and loses a few points 844 and 896. The process and the motivations for what he does on Page 43 is totally bewildering to me, I don't know why he needs to find this out beyond looking for a good wagon to sheep. I feel its scummy as hell. Post 1128 is inexplicable. Post 1707 was another random vote too close too deadline.

My summary is in there, I thought he was scum but as he as claimed and as far Im aware not been counterclaimed, Ill bump him up to null despite amounting to -21.

11. CES

Post 608 - Doesnt change opinion after Ectos doc claim - 2
Post 610 - Weak defence - 2
Post 761 - silly vote - 1
Post 1024 - Back once again with naff all - 2
Post 1311 - Another yos vote with no reasoning - 3

Total: - 10

Lurker. Only posts when needs to. Minimal content posts. Out of the little he has posted, I have liked much if anything.

Overall: Scum

12. Lord Gurgi

Post 91 Good Post + 1
No post number but Has been posting well thus far

before 1012[/b] + 3
Post 1012 - In regards to CTD on CDB I agree and really his UT points are spot on to. + 2
Post 1016 - But his next post is terrible - 2 (voting but doesnt want a lynch)
Post 1051 - Balls on yos...

think it meant to say bails on yos. This is about him refusing to get into an argument with him

- 2
Post 1173 - avoiding the yos confrontation is looking really bad now. - 3
Post 1178 - Brings up slushy snowballs!

before I mentioned it within thread

+ 2

Total = 1

Gurgi has noticed things that I wanted to bring up in my review. The major problem I have with him is the weird set of posts where he downright refuses to get into any argument at all with yos.

Overall: Townie.

[Porochaz]

Im going to look over the rest of the game since my last post. If I feel I should comment on anything else or if there is questions outstanding I will answer them now.

[Porochaz]

Prozac, is there any reason that you had to reread after reading the game for the first time? It seriously put a dent in your contributions. Also, why did it take you so long to do the reread in the first place?

I skimmed through the game the first time round and then I lurked a lot and realised that the only reason I was voting ythill was due to him being the forefront of the major events in the game and that I should possibly try to look at the game as a whole. I also felt it would help me get into the game more.

It took me so long to read, due to exams, work, leaving to go home at the end of term, some semblance of Christmas and new year and my grandpa getting progressively more ill.

[Porochaz]

Okay, lots of inconsistencies, a cop claim with a counter claim and my previous post on him.

vote Glork

Without the iffy claim CES would be a better vote. Ether's feelings towards Glork give me bad vibes however not nearly enough to make anything of it.

[Glork]

The thing about Glork being a cop, though, is that at the start of Day 2, just after having got an innocent on MBL, Glork's first post of the day is asking HH why he omitted MBL from a potential-scum list. That just doesn't scan to me. There's being subtle about crumbing innocents and there's actively pointing the other way. Just doesn't seem like a cop move to me.

Unvote, vote: Glork

Still reading, though.

It doesn't read to me like Glork's insinuating I'm scum there. Maybe I'm overreading it, but I don't see any MBL-lynch intent from Glork whatsoever D2. I see him as spotting an omission from Huck on a player Glork knows the alignment of, and wondering why Huck might make such a slip.

It kind of boggles my mind to think that as scum, Glork would so obviously set up a cop claim/result overnight (innocent on MBL N1) and very clearly telegraph it all day D2, yet somehow manage to slip up and show suspicion of MBL in his first post of the day?

MBL is correct here.

That post was a critique of HackerHuck's failure to provide sound analysis

, not an attempt to sluff suspicion onto MBL. I am also super meticulous and plotting as scum. On one hand, that would make the possibility of Glork setting up a fake-claim something to keep in mind. On the other hand, the chances of me making such a simple blunder seem pretty small due to my cautious nature. The last thing I ever, ever, ever want as scum is to die, because that gives the town more time to figure out the rest of the game. All that being said, I challenge anybody to find a statement after N1 in which I explicitly state that I suspect MBL of being scum. You won't, because I never did. I asked MBL some critical questions and told him to shape up for two reasons: One, I felt he was being lazy after I learned he was protown. Two, I didn't want to make it apparent to anyone-but-MBL that I was the Cop. I'm pretty sure he picked up on that very quickly, as he and I had been bouncing ideas off one another for a good portion of D2.

From a Glork-as-scum PoV, it plays out more like this... typical Glork trying to bus MBL but too few sheep in the town; N2, buddies remind him that everyone knows his meta and he comes in changing his stance in a way that seems forced because... it is. Near the end of D2 he's sweating because of the sloppy change, and he thinks that the best defense will be to fake-claim cop, so he starts setting that up. Which would also explain why he jumped straight to a claim when I brought up his inconsistency on MBL.

Otherwise I'm really curious why Glork decided to claim under little pressure with a doc in a body-bag. I'm also curious why he's so quiet right now. On the other hand, a nagging doubt keeps telling me that scum-Glork fakes cop with at least one guilty.

1) I've been well aware of my meta since LONG before this game. To quote Lights Out 1, from back in 2006:

I'm the kind of player who would have no qualms whatsoever about throwing one, two, three, or more mafiates under the bus to work towards the trust of the town.

I've been scum few enough times that I am extremely aware of my own meta. Truth be told, if I were to consciously break away from said meta, it would be in a game like this where the vast majority of other players are also aware of my scum-meta.

2) It was pretty apparent that you suspected me enough to possibly vig me tonight, and you were pushing the "what happened to your MBL suspicion" issue enough that I felt I couldn't answer without fabricating something (which is against my very principles of protown play) or eventually claiming anyway. If I get lynched today, or killed tonight, at least you'll have the benefit of two innocent results. When I made the decision to claim, I had pretty much decided that, whether via nightkill, lynch, or vig, I almost certainly won't survive to see Day Four. Thus, I decided to skip the breadcrumbing, arguing, and beating around the bush to get straight to the point. I'm very no-nonsense when it comes to things like this, even moreso at a junction as critical as today. We're down six protown players, and it is absolutely imperative that we lynch scum today.


On another note, I will be on V/LA from this Thursday until next Tuesday, as I will be traveling out of state.

[Glork]

Unvote

, although I reserve the right to re-vote among Shanba/CTD if I decide that CTD is lying scum.

Vote: CES

in the meantime.

[MrBuddyLee]

Okay, lots of inconsistencies, a cop claim with a counter claim and my previous post on him.

vote Glork

Can you please specify which inconsistencies you're talking about here?

[HackerHuck]

MBL is correct here.

That post was a critique of HackerHuck's failure to provide sound analysis

, not an attempt to sluff suspicion onto MBL.

I have a bone to pick with that statement. I don't see my intentional omission of MBL as a flaw in my analysis. I think you were more than a little peeved that the sample I picked had you in it and was a little smaller than you found comfortable.

I see that you didn't really answer the big question about why the sudden shift away from Shanba/Yos toward me. I know what your quote was referencing, but it still seems like a big leap to switch from 'we must lynch/vig yos/shanba'

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Still waiting for you to explain the N2 HH investigation, Glrok. The claiming to explain a discrepancy is nice though; do you remember me doing that in Linked Role?

P.S. Shanba really needs to post.

[Shanba]

OK.

On the claims: I believe Ythill's. The two cop claims are iffier - I'm inclined to believe CTD's (lol) but am not so certain on glorks. Cop is a powerful role. Two full on cops? And then the idea that Ether is floating that he's insane and both his innocents are scum seems a little iffy to me. At any rate, given that suggestion, there should be no way that we lynch glork today. People suggesting it are dumb - I am 99% sure we're not in lylo and anyway we have a vig (or at least an sk) so yeah.

In the back of my mind I have a vague pricking about glork cop telling me there's important meta I need to remember. Glork, have you been cop before? Or fakeclaimed cop as scum? I definitely remember someone who used to obfuscate their town results by continuing to prod them gently; I just don't recall if that was glork or not. Regardless, setup speculation says "hmm" on the glork claim.

Striking out my strong townreads and the claims/claimed innocent results gives me this:
Porochaz, CES, lord gurgi, cdb, chamber.

That's pretty nice. I'd quite like to sub in hackerhuck as possible godfather (in a game of many cops, I'd guess we probably have a godfather) as that would allow me to take out weak town reads gurgi and chamber leaving ces, prozac, cdb and hackerhuck.

If glork is town, we're very close to just straight up winning this game. I think today we should lynch from the pool of unknowns, possibly get another result from glork or if not he dies and any sanity doubts/is he scum doubts are lifted; both possibilities which are good for us. CTD is playing more classical cop. I need glork's meta in the event that he lives.

[Glork]

Still waiting for you to explain the N2 HH investigation, Glrok. The claiming to explain a discrepancy is nice though; do you remember me doing that in Linked Role?

P.S. Shanba really needs to post.

As I stated towards the latter portion of D2, HH was someone I never got a beat on at all. I figured I could discern CTD's alignment if I got into it with him, and Shanba/Yos I was still sold on as being strong scum candidates who didn't warrant investigation. (Note that this is a distinct change in strategy from my N1 investigation of MBL. N1, I was willing to trade myself for MBL if he was scum, and figured I could right my world-view on the "off-chance" he was town.)

I looked back at HH, and I believe he didn't even have two full posts in the game. It was really down to me investigating HH or CDB, but I went with HH because CDB had explained his V/LA, and I'm expecting significantly more out of him. HH had like a weekend or two of limited access, but has otherwise been actively lurking, as opposed to never-having-any-time-to-post.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Shanba should answer this question.

Glrok should answer the questions posed to to him in 2116 and 2117.

[Shanba]

Like, I have put serious spadework into these discussions too. It's not obviously untrue, if it were fucking obviously untrue then I wouldn't be fucking saying it would I.

I think Shanba was legitimately annoyed and used that.

Let's ask Shanba: could you've typed something like that as scum, Shanba?

I think so. Not sure, but probably. I might end up going all "ugh that looks so fake" and not posting it, and I might feel bad about trying to emotionally manipulate people.

[Glork]

I remember being a cop in the following:
Famous Cats
Mafia 64
CovertOps
I'll get links later, as I need to pack.

I don't recall having ever fake-claimed as Cop before. I'm pretty sure I didn't in California Trilogy, Space Monkey, LRCM, or Plum's recent LotR mafia. I'm struggling to remember other recent scumgames off the top of my head. Old (as in, over 3-4 years old), who knows. I might have done it in Caddyshack or something, but I believe that was my first game as scum. When I took my two extended breaks from MafiaScum, I stopped retaining all of the details of my past games.


CES: Can't say I remember off the top of my head. Then again, I don't actually remember many details about LRCM outside of my own gameplay.

[MrBuddyLee]

Talking about cops is boring. Ether, why Huck? Porochaz, what inconsistencies? Shanba, how's your play different in this game than you play as scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

vote: CDB

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm seeing some really crappy votes on Glork.

MBL you better have a better reason than lurking.

Huck is starting to look scummy in the exchange with Ether.