Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[Ether]

Porochaz just posted in Forum 62. I'm pretty sure he wasn't always set to invisible; I've seen him on the online list since this game started.

Yo, Porochaz. Claim or die.

[Patrick]

Votecount

HackerHuck (1) -- Lord Gurgi
Porochaz (4) -- Shanba, Ether, Ythill, HackerHuck
ChannelDelibird (2) -- chamber, MrBuddyLee
Glork (4) -- CrashTextDummie, ChannelDelibird, Porochaz, Cogito Ergo Sum
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- Glork

Not voting: Nobody
12 alive, 7 to lynch

[Shanba]

I got a really subversive idea. Whisper it quietly, but I'm strongly considering a no lynch. SHHHH don't tell anyone!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Probably wouldn't be a bad time to no-lynch, no.

[Glork]

Could not disagree with No-Lynch more. If I'm the scum and we no-lynch, I kill Ythill, and we're in the same position, less one un-countered Vigilante.

Confirm Vote: CES

[Glork]

EBWOP: I guess we'd have the benefit of my investigation result, but I'd probably wind up being lynched for not-being-nightkilled. I don't like it. It's a waste of two days.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Way to forget that, Glrok. And no, I wouldn't consider not getting nightkilled a strike against you; it's obvious you're a likely lynch. If you're town, you should be all over this: either you get nightkilled instead of mislynched or you get a free extra investigation.

You are so scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

lol

[Shanba]

For the record: the entire point of a no lynch was an extra result for the case where glork is town. Essentially, CES is 100% right here.

Besides, we're evens. We'll have to do it at some point.

[Ether]

Glork, how often are you checking in?

[Ythill]

Yeah, that was a serious blunder from Glork-scum.

[CrashTextDummie]

Can we lynch Glork yet?

I understand the reasoning for no-lynch, but Glork is very obviously scum and letting him invent another investigation isn't gonna lead anywhere.

Consequently, I think mass-claim can wait until tomorrow, but I'm not exactly opposed to doing it today. Ythill's order is spot on.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork on CDB

Unvote
Vote: UT
I'm not feeling the UT wagon. I would like to see more pressure on Ecto, especially in light of MBL's post
Aaaaand UT's vote on Fritzler is :badposting:. OMGUS to the max.
All things considered, I'm on the fence re: UT.
Vote stays on Ecto for now, but I would probably be willing to coax a claim out of UT.
"As far as not feeling the UT wagon, it is extremely lazy. A bit more lazy than I'd expect from this group of players, once we got out of the random bullshit stage. I have some minor misgivings about UT's behavior since garnering some pressure (in particular, I think CTD's "UT has clammed up" comment is right on the money), but it's not enough to convince me that he needs dead. If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block, with a possible token pile-on at the end of the wagon."
I would also prefer a Shanba lynch over a UT/CDB lynch, because (and this may sound stupid because of its metagaming nature) I think UT would have stayed around and kept superlurking if he were scum, rather than replacing out. Shanba fits the bill of Lurkerscum much more than UT/CDB.
Also, please explain this post, considering there are currently zero votes on CDB? Why are you attacking a bandwagon that doesn't actually exist?

DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today.

@DGB: How's Glork doing so far, five days later? Right now his vote's on CDB, a lurker he doesn't think is scum based on a meta:

Again, you're using outdated information here. Shanba's defense of the nonexistent CDB-wagon (literally, there wasn't a single vote on CDB, and Shanba was blasting the lurkerhunt nature of the "wagon") is an extremely strong connection. Either Shanba is trying to earn superduperbrowniepoints by going "see, ITY he wasn't scum" when CDB does die, or he's trying to make sure that the wagon doesn't actually build (at least, not before CDB has a chance to actually participate in the game).

I would still strongly prefer a Shanbalynch over a CDBlynch, though.
I'm becoming less interested in a CDB lynch. It is more stagnant than the push against Shanba was. That said, he makes a reasonable vig/investigation target.
CDB is unlikely to claim, because the material against him isn't all that significant, TBH. It's essentially "UT was meh, and then flaked, and CDB hasn't done anything." Which, if he has been on V/LA like he said, is a non-case. If CDB shows up and provides the analysis that people are demanding of him, I don't see any reason to continue to pursue a lynch. You're more than welcome to tie me with CDB for this, but it's not a very good wagon when it comes right down to it, and his failure to claim isn't as telling as you want it to be (ESPECIALLY if he's non-vanilla protown).
mafia = cdb, yos, inhim, shanba
Aside from the SK thing, Chamber might be a goddamned motherfucking genius. I *might* be willing to go back to CDB. It really depends on what he does when he finally gets around to posting.
EBWOP: I should also point out, DGB, that if I'm scum and you're the Vig, aggrivating you is NOT in my best interests, especially if CDB is scum with me. It doesn't make sense to potentially lose half the scumgroup if Glork and CDB are both scum together. You're wrong about me, and there's a decent chance you're wrong about CDB. If you decide you'd rather vig CDB than one of Yos/Shanba, that wouldn't be the worst decision ever, but if you're asking for who I would vig, there's really zero debate about that.
Complimented chamber for going after CDB: "He has also put an emphasis on avoiding a similar situation today, with his suspicion summary, and his push on CDB."
"CDB and Porochaz are still decent scum candidates, especially in the event that CTD is not scum."
Vote: Shanba
FoS: CTD, CDB
I don't want to see an endgame that contains {CES, Chamber, Ether, CDB}... it'd pretty much wind up a crapshoot, since everyone had either failed to read, or failed to explain things throughout the course of the game.
CDB (probably scum)
I plan on reading Shanba, CDB, CTD, and CES in isolation
"The only game that I actually remember CDB being scum in was Face-To-Face, and he was pretty lurky there, too. That has definitely been a factor in my deicision to take a look at him today."
"I looked back at HH, and I believe he didn't even have two full posts in the game. It was really down to me investigating HH or CDB, but I went with HH because CDB had explained his V/LA, and I'm expecting significantly more out of him."

CDB on Glork

you know what I haven't gotten to type for a really long time?
vote Glork
that felt good
Flameaxe, Glork, CES, Fritzler, chamber
Rereading these guys, but didn't get much from any of them first time through and would like to hear more from all of them.
Vote: HackerHuck for now, subject to change if I find someone scummier but I'm interested enough to see where this goes. Next people I want to look at are Glork and MBL, not decided in which order.

How come you're worried about Glork and MBL? Glork is fabulously obvtown; MBL is...probably also town as well.

Worried might not be the right word. I just think I need to look closely at them and decide how safe it is to sheep them, because they're both players whose damn near every post reads totally convincingly to me by nature. Both have made big, well-argued scum cases on a couple of people (inHim and Yos, IIRC) which made me more willing to vote said people and they're liable to do it again at some stage, so I think it's pretty important that I examine how much I can afford to trust them.

Instinct says Glork is scum here. Will have reread on Glork done within 12 hours deciding whether or not I agree with said instinct.
I'm rereading Glork at the moment, about halfway through. Basically what I'm getting so far is the usual - Glork seems entirely reasonable, even if I don't always agree with him (Shanba on day 2 is an example of this, I've seen Shanba as town from the start). The thing about Glork being a cop, though, is that at the start of Day 2, just after having got an innocent on MBL, Glork's first post of the day is asking HH why he omitted MBL from a potential-scum list. That just doesn't scan to me. There's being subtle about crumbing innocents and there's actively pointing the other way. Just doesn't seem like a cop move to me.
Unvote, vote: Glork
Glork I still feel is prolly scum. I don't really see both cop claims being true and I still think Glork's first post of Day 2 did not look like a cop with an innocent on you.
I'm with CES here. Glork is the strongest lynch.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork on CES

called Fritz CES and inHim protown early
Asked CES who's scum, CES replies "Ythill and CDB"
asks Shanba his opinion of CES, MBL, Ythill, Yos
DGB attacks CES, Glork defends
"He's not acting like the complete obvtownCES that I saw yesterday, but my D1 read of him trumps what little questionalbe content I have seen."
Asked Shanba: "Do you think that anybody who piled onto the wagon late to ensure that he'd be the only "viable lynch candidate" is likely to be scum (CTD/CES/Yos2)?"
To DGB: "DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today."
Told DGB not to vig CES: "Nah, CES is probably town."
"CES is still alive because there are people who need MORE DEAD, MORE FASTER than him"
"Porochaz is a better kill than CES. CES is pretty easy to figure out once you make him post (and I'm still leaning slightly protown on him anyway)."
I have no interest in killng Gurgi, CES, or Chamber.
CES, if you're town I'd like to see a little less shameless wagoning, and a little more real analysis from you at this point.
I'll add CES as my tentative 4th and see how viable a scumgroup Shanba/CTD/CDB/CES would be sometime in the next couple of days.
In fact, I think CES is probably significantly more likely scum than CTD, who could just be lazy/terrible.
I plan on reading Shanba, CDB, CTD, and CES in isolation
I would be interested in the possibility of a CES lynch today, as I expressed a few pages ago.
Vote: CES in the meantime.

CES on Glork

jokevote
buddied a little early
called Glork dense
(Thinks Glork is scum but votes Shanba)
Called a Glork-Shanba scumpair
early D3: "Case against Glrok: 1) He hasn't caught scum yet, 2) Gut (#1927 e.g. is way too nice), 3) the CTD-"known scums" altercation is hella stupid, 4) he's clearly bussing Shanba. Case against Shanba: 1) He's clearly being bussed by Glrok (behavioral + Yos flipped town and Glrok tends to bus), 2) If Glrok isn't scum, then there's still a good chance of Shanba being scum on account of Glrok being a good scumhunter."
Takes CTD's side on the callout of Glork's "known scums"
Ether asks why still voting Shanba? "Because either Glrok is town and I should sheep him or he's scum and he's likely bussing Shanba (Yos flipping town being relevant here) combined with an absence of town tells."
Shanba is obvious Glrokpartner, Ythill, please.
P.S. signs point to Glrok's cop claim being truthful, which reduces the chance of Shanba being scum, but with the innocent on HH, I think I'll just sheep Glrok for now.
after counterclaim: "Not likely town - it just became likelier. I got the feeling that Glrok was bussing Shanba based on behaviour and Glrok's other suspects flipping town which according to sample calculations gave Shanba a 2/3rds chance of being scum if Glrok was.

Unvote, vote: Glrok"
"You're right, MBL, I was probably too quick there; reading Glrok's iso as per #2086 undermines the quotes ythill pulled up. Unvote, I'll have to think about this.

I'd also like to see a full accounting of why he chose to investigate HH."
"Still waiting for you to explain the N2 HH investigation, Glrok. "
"Glrok should answer the questions posed to to him in 2116 and 2117."
"Are you considering the possibility of Glrok being naive or insane, Ythill, 'cause I didn't see it?"
"So hey, I remembered that this was a normal and non-sane cops are banned by normal guidelines. I checked with Patrick to be sure: if Glrok is a cop, he is sane.

I don't think Pat would put 2 cops in a set-up (and CTD's claim is mucho credible) whereas 1-shot cop, 2-shot vig, doc, supersaint vs. 4 scum sounds balanced.

Unvote, vote: Glrok"
My Top 2 for Glrokpartner is currently HH and Channel
"Way to forget that, Glrok. And no, I wouldn't consider not getting nightkilled a strike against you; it's obvious you're a likely lynch. If you're town, you should be all over this: either you get nightkilled instead of mislynched or you get a free extra investigation.
You are so scum."

[ChannelDelibird]

I got prodded. Sorry about that. It's late here now. Post coming tomorrow afternoon GMT+1.

Glork needs dead, though.

[Ether]

Claim now.

[ChannelDelibird]

Claim now.

Vanilla.

[MrBuddyLee]

If Shanba is town and Glork is scum, CES looks bad for voting Shanba because Glork is scum. That whole logical construct was awkward. CES has definitely danced a fine line on Glork.

Glork made sure to mantion minor suspicion of CES but seemed to deflect attention from him D2. Outright defended him from vigging twice. D3 seemed to see the benefit in going after CES--most likely afraid of being tied to him later down the line.

"If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums" was really weird from Glork if he is scum. He defended UT a lot, and defended CDB offhandedly despite calling him good lynch fodder. Why would scumGlork waste any time defending lurking town? Kind of told CDB aloud not to claim. Always pushed Shanba harder than CDB. As CDB became more and more useless, called twice for the vig of CDB. Is this Glork sacrificing a terrible scumpartner to look good, or trying to direct the vig to town?

CDB utterly ignored Glork until CTD's cop counterclaim, then was on him like flies on shit.

I think all three are probably scum. Of them, Glork is probably the right first lynch.

unvote

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That whole logical construct was awkward.

The word is awesome. I can't help if I make the vote that maximises the win according to my logic.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork on Porochaz

The biggest thing I'm getting is that I don't like Flameaxe's "I agree with CTD" post. I think CTD is stretching a little bit, and flat agreement makes me groan.
If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block
no more on Flameaxe D1.
Porochaz is a better kill than CES. CES is pretty easy to figure out once you make him post (and I'm still leaning slightly protown on him anyway).

That said, Yos/Shanba are p much guaranteed.
Yos is guaranteed scum. Porochaz is only decently likely to be scum.
Fail, fail, and fail.
Porochaz, are you scum?
CDB and Porochaz are still decent scum candidates, especially in the event that CTD is not scum.

Porochaz on Glork

7) Glork
-I like some parts, indifferent about others here. His catchup post seems fine on paper, but I'm getting a weird gut read about it. Can't really explain it. I'm going to try to work on finding words to explain it. I'm liking his posts since then without any weird gut feelings.
-Leaning town 'weird gut' read?

Glork disagrees with all three of his reads and asks, "Porochaz, are you scum?"
"I am glad you disagree. I mean after all we have someone who likes to say people who is scum/town without really giving reasons then can't decide if he is a nurse or a vanilla townie, and your not seeing the scumminess there?

The way I see it, youve spent most of the latter part of the day pushing yos when it wasn't imperative that he had to and then long after. Whatr else have you done? Cause Im not seeing it."

"Also lulz at infinite overlord Glork. Of course you have, as you know everything but please, tell me, why we (or I) should listen to you, when I dont really have much positive to attribute to you?"

- Forgot about Glork
- Bad Vote! - 2
Post 203 - Glork Fail - 1
Anticipation for something useful growing...
Post 505/506 - Bad Posting - Fence sitting -Theorising about 2 scum teams with no evidence. - 3
Post 524 - contradiction to the extreme - 3
Post 1077 - Glork holding MBL to account, really like this post + 2
Page 44 - Good series of posts
Post 1185 - Would quite like Glork to say something useful? - 1
Post 1576 - Why is Glork pushing for a yos claim?when it isn't imperative he does so? - 1
Post 1592 - Still no idea why he would have claimed.

Overall: - 7

Glork was fairly useless, which isnt like him. The whole yos thing is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Im worried about his fluff:reasoning ratio, that seems to be way too high in the fluff section.

Verdict: SCUMMY.
(Note, he called inHim, Ythill and CES SCUM not SCUMMY)

Okay, lots of inconsistencies, a cop claim with a counter claim and my previous post on him. vote Glork

Without the iffy claim CES would be a better vote. Ether's feelings towards Glork give me bad vibes however not nearly enough to make anything of it.

I voted Glork over CES purely because the claim I don't feel is believable and things change like the claim therefore I have to adhust my vote accordingly.



Glork made sure to push some suspicion upon Porochaz each day but never pushed the lynch aggressively. Even when saying he was a good lynch, said Shanba, Yos and maybe even CTD were better lynches.

Porochaz and Flameaxe never really delved into Glork at all until the start of D3, and never followed up on his "SCUMMY" call til after the claim. I need to look into why Flameaxe got such a "weird gut" read off Glork's first suspicions post. Did Glork call out all his partners, or perhaps none of them? Reasonable analysis post on Glork (and CES) at the start of D3 but never did anything about it. Minor town points but not really. Really quick to lay into Glork when the cop claims came down.

Significantly likely scumpair. I can totally see Glork requesting replacements for scumpartners CDB and Flameaxe or encouraging them to replace out if there's a daytalk quicktopic.

[Ythill]

Yeah. Glork-HH-Prozac seems extremely likely. Just need to find the last buddy, assuming four scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Shanba.

[Ythill]

I'm still setting aside GF theories until we're closer to endgame.

[Lord Gurgi]

VOTE: Glork

Yay wait-and-see strategy pays off.

Are you guys wanting me to claim?

[HackerHuck]

For the record: the entire point of a no lynch was an extra result for the case where glork is town. Essentially, CES is 100% right here.

Besides, we're evens. We'll have to do it at some point.

Wait, you're voting for Porochaz. I can see why CES might see it as an alternative to a Glork mislynch, but why aren't you looking at if from the Lynch Porochaz or No-lynch perspective? I'd prefer a Porochaz lynch, but I'd also prefer a no-lynch over lynching Glork right now.

I'm also not sure how Ythill came up with me as a partner with Porochaz and Glork.