Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[Zorblag]

@MrBuddyLee, hmm, I really don't care for HackerHuck's play and I'm not that convinced that scum partners would find it a good idea to try to shift attention elsewhere to try to save him if they thought there was a danger of revealing themself in the process (which you seem to be arguing they'd definitely find worth it) but like I said, I'll take a close look at Channeldelibird and see how much I like his play tomorrow. As scum I'd be pretty willing to stick to a bus even if a way out presented itself (but then I'm more prone to bussing as scum than most as evidenced by Mini 1090 which just got finished in which I somewhat unnecessarily bussed both my partners days one and two.) I also sort of think that HackerHuck, if he's scum, probably has a Porochaz partner who's simply not committing to anything just now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you think HH would escape getting lynched tomorrow if we lynched Channel today and he turned up town, MBL?

[MrBuddyLee]

Porozac's the only other major option, unless town busts a new move. I'd be tempted to vote him over HH, but it's a close call. Looks like only Shanba and Ether remain from the last serious Zacwagon, and HH would obviously be on him as well.

[HackerHuck]

I probably will. I still think Huck's scum, and his recent behavior only makes me feel better about this. He's tuned out since Monday, and after coming back he's just going on about wagon stalling. I think if he were town, the knowledge that his top two were both people who were calmly letting his wagon stall might be remotely interesting to him.

What are you talking about? I asked you about it and you gave a half-baked answer that no one was around and that you wanted to talk to them before you dropped the hammer. Now that it appears something new is stalling my wagon, you appear unconcerned and reiterate your desire to lynch. It doesn't really say anything about your alignment though, because it would be too risky to quick-lynch me now that you've been asked not to. That's especially true if CDB is town.

CES - if you buy the theory that MBL is putting forward, that means your scumteam would be me, Porochaz, and CDB. How does that feel to you?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't buy what MBL is serving, but I could see a HH-Channel-Prozac. The main problem I have with it is that Channel was arguing for HH-CES-Prozac at some point which is a little odd in that situation.

[Patrick]

Votecount

HackerHuck (5) -- Cogito Ergo Sum, ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi, Shanba, Zorblag
ChannelDelibird (2) -- CrashTextDummie, MrBuddyLee
Porochaz (1) -- HackerHuck
MrBuddyLee (1) -- Ether

Not voting: Porochaz
10 alive, 6 to lynch

The deadline hits at 10pm GMT on the 6th.

[Ether]

See...if you actually had a problem with my answer--if you actually gave a shit about scumhunting--maybe you should have called me out on your own initiative before dropping it and leaving me to draw my own conclusions. The thing that's stalling your wagon is

me:

my impatience with Zorblag and CDB, my love of CrashTextDummie, my silly inner conflicts over MBL. That was true before Zorblag posted, and it's even truer now that you're at -1. You ask me what I'm talking about, but I'm not even clear what issue you're taking with what I said.

[MrBuddyLee]

I don't buy what MBL is serving

What, specifically, don't you buy?

[HackerHuck]

See...if you actually had a problem with my answer--if you actually gave a shit about scumhunting--maybe you should have called me out on your own initiative before dropping it and leaving me to draw my own conclusions. The thing that's stalling your wagon is

me:

my impatience with Zorblag and CDB, my love of CrashTextDummie, my silly inner conflicts over MBL. That was true before Zorblag posted, and it's even truer now that you're at -1. You ask me what I'm talking about, but I'm not even clear what issue you're taking with what I said.

Ether - you've been tunneling on me for no apparent reason since you entered the game. You accuse me of avoiding the thread, yet when I specifically ask you questions I either get no response or some rambling answer that doesn't make sense. What conclusions did you make from your own half-baked response? What does your impatience with Zorblag and CDB have to do with my wagon? Why should we believe that Porochaz isn't just inactive, and if he's really avoiding my wagon for some reason, what does that mean to you (considering he's one of my top two as you put it)?

[Shanba]

I think the wagon stalling has more to do with people simply not

being here

, not scum deliberating about hack's wagon.

I'm actually somewhat disturbed by my company on the wagon, if I'm totally honest. The three people I trust most are not on the wagon. As such I'm seriously considering swapping over to prozac...

not so much cdb, though I can see where the wagon's coming from.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@MBl, the ChannelTown /\ HHScum --> Contradiction theory.

[Lord Gurgi]

I doubt that all the scum will be on any one wagon. I also doubt that all the scum have voted already. It's a lot easier to sit without a vote cast.

Hi Zorblag, I heard we are supposed to duke it out.

Ether you'll hammer at deadline right?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The mindset of waiting till deadline kills games.

[Zorblag]

Yeah, waiting till deadline is silly unless there's actually more that we expect to gain before it comes at any given point in the game. I'll be taking a look at a number of things this afternoon (it's been a long, busy week and my plans once I'm done teaching are to go get a watch battery changed, pick up a handle of gin and come home, start drinking it straight and read this game) but we are down to 2 days left at this point and I'm not sure how much more the rest of you expect to have to say.

@Lord Gurgi, that's what I heard to. I assumed it was because you thought I was scum as I don't have much of an opinion on you just yet. If you don't think that all the scum have voted does that mean that you think that Prochaz is definitely scum? He's the only one left who hasn't cast a vote.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Lord Gurgi, definitely isn't the right word for your thoughts on Porochaz scum; you've said you doubt all the scum have voted. Mostly I want to be sure that you're saying you doubt Porochaz is town at this point (the other option being my not reading what you've written correctly.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[ChannelDelibird]

Guys, I'm sorry again. Some personal stuff came up in the last day or so which has really got me down. I know I'm super fucking annoying for continually being behind and making posts like these but please take me on my word for this one at least. I probably won't be in the mood to put my head in this game tonight but I have a completely free day tomorrow and I will post as much as I can then.

[MrBuddyLee]

HackerHuck (5) -- Cogito Ergo Sum, ChannelDelibird, Lord Gurgi, Shanba, Zorblag
ChannelDelibird (2) -- CrashTextDummie, MrBuddyLee
Porochaz (1) -- HackerHuck
MrBuddyLee (1) -- Ether

Not voting: Porochaz

Stated reasons for voting HackerHuck:

Flying under the radar, lurking, gut, the Glrok innocent result.

(My comment: the Glork result is a horrid reason to tack on, and without it, CES's read could just as easily be on CDB or Poro)

This is the main thing that I'm seeing with HH, that he just doesn't seem to be that bothered that he's not really having a great deal of influence on the game. Like, we keep seeing town corpses and he's just kind of sitting contentedly on the fact that he thinks Ether is scum. He's taken the points for taking an unsheeply stance on her but looks pretty happy not to have that tested any time soon.

Vote: HackerHuck

for now, subject to change if I find someone scummier but I'm interested enough to see where this goes.

(Not sure what I think about this. Pretty thin argument. Lazy man's genius? )

So I'm more in favour of lynching Huck today than I am MBL. VOTE: Huck

This is a really long post with very little substance amongst a sea of lurkers. Active lurker alert.

See, saying the guy you just took your opinions from is scum is not kosher with me.

(Sound observations.)

The key things I think about Hackerhuck's play are the poor reads. It's one thing to be

wrong

, to make mistakes, it's another to have bad analysis/reasoning for your reads. I think the latter is significantly scummier. Particularly, I'm not seeing that he has any feel for the game in the way I might expect a good townie to - there's no sense of

when something happens

, he turns around and goes "whoa, what was that!" All the analysis he did, more or less, is rereading the thread. I think this is an indication of scumminess - I think town react far more to what's going on than scum do, and it's been setting off my gut for a while."

There is some immediate reacting going on, but when it happens it's fairly blunt. Like with inhim, he just goes "oh your claim is scummy

vote inhim

." I think that's honestly fairly opportunistic, and I think a townier approach to the wagon would involve more "WTF" and less "OMG VOTE INHIM". I'd note there's very little emotion in his play, but that there's also little of the in depth analysis that non-passionate players (the likes of vollkan etc.) tend to thrive on. It could be a playstyle thing, but it feels totally off.

His reads have been the same since pretty much his first post of day 2 - in particular, he's thought me and ether are scummy since his first votecount analysis thingy of that day. MBL, have your reads been the same since then? And yet he's not tunneling on us exactly. Sometimes people get locked into a viewpoint where they go "rah x is scum and damn the consequences I am gonna lynch the bastard" but then they tend to be actively pursuing the guy for as long as the madness lasts. People with weaker, less passionate reads tend to be more likely to let go. It's rare, I think, for someone to think that a person is scummy, get convinced that someone else is scummier and lynch them, and then go back to having the first guy as a mid level suspect, which is roughly how I'd characterise his play.

This is a post made mostly by my gut and theorycrafting. Logical rational shit doesn't come into it much here because a lot of my read on hackerhuck

is

gut and this is my attempt to quantify it.

(Sound observations.)

The HackerHuck lynch is find today and is probably my top choice. A huge part of that is how he's interacted with Glork. It seems like there were a couple times when he was coming up with short lists that included Glork and somehow Glork just never got into the picture. I disliked how he reacted to the claim yesterday and he spent more energy than I think was reasonable arguing against a Glork lynch even as it became more apparent that it was a decent way to go (but without going the over the top mindless being wrong route that Ether took.) The day one switch to a wagon that no one else was on when we were almost at deadline doesn't feel like a town move and overall I feel that he's just not a pro-town presence.

(Well-argued, nuanced point about interactions with known scum.)

Start of D4:
Ether votes Huck (1-0)
CES votes Huck (2-0)
CDB votes Huck (3-0)
The Cop votes CDB (3-1)
Ether wavers, cites Huck's vote on Porochaz
Shanba says he wants Huck dead today (4-1)
Ether hops off Huck for a very shallow reason (3-1-1)

Ether, why did you hop off Huck and stay off all day?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

(My comment: the Glork result is a horrid reason to tack on, and without it, CES's read could just as easily be on CDB or Poro)

Not from my perspective - the gut part doesn't translate. And I feel I should've expanded on the "Glrok innocent result" before, but I'll do it now. Part of it is that I feel fairly confident that you're town and I tend to think that going with 1 fake innocent was the right play for Glrokscum considering how close to LyLo we were.

[Zorblag]

So actually, talking about Glork's innocent claims, something that seemed to be the case when I was reading through it that I'm not sure has been mentioned by anyone is that Glork made his claim when it felt like there was some momentum swinging towards a HackerHuck lynch yesterday as well. I don't know how likely Glork would have been to take heat off a townie who was getting pressure right then in exchange for an increase in their chances of getting lynched the next day (as opposed to claiming some other result and letting the wagon on HackerHuck have a good chance of growing Day Three) but there was a decent reason for him to make that move right at the moment as scum; it took the pressure off right at the moment and there's always a chance that these things won't come back again. If Glork thought he'd be able to avoid the lynch for a day (and I think there's a pretty decent chance he thought he could) then I think there's probably a much better chance that he'd be doing that to a scum partner than an innocent just in terms of available targets.

I guess the question is whether my feeling that there was some HackerHuck momentum at the start of the day yesterday is accurate; it's harder to get the pace of a day when reading it all at once.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

OK, reading through ChannelDelibird there is a lot of "this game is hard" and "I'm busy for now" which I dislike. The first set of his read throughs had Glork in the can't read category which is a point against him. I don't like that when he votes HackerHuck Day 2 he lists as his biggest reason the fact that HackerHuck doesn't seem concerned about the fact that he's not having an impact on the game; I get the same lack of impact from Channeldelibird and don't really think he seems to feel that bad about it. When people describe behavior in others as scummy while exhibiting the same behavior themselves it's troubling.

The ChannelDelibird reaction to Glork is decent town play or a reasonable recognition of a time to bus (or perhaps a decision to distance as it came a bit early.) I do like the HackerHuck hate even if it at times comes across as a bit hypocritical. The clearing of my spot does feel pretty half-asssed and he's more certain about the scum team even before the Glork flip than I expect someone to be but many players decide such things more readily than I do.

Glancing at Untrod Tripod's play it's early enough and largely defensive enough that I'm pretty willing to toss it out. There's the first vote for Glork but I'm not going to put that much weight behind it as I'm pretty willing to believe it would have been made no matter what alignments people had.

On the whole there's not a huge amount to like about ChannelDelibird's play and there are plenty of things to dislike. Having said that, I like HackerHuck's play less just from the Glork connections. I'd rather see a HackerHuck lynch at this time than a ChannelDelibird lynch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Ether]

Ether you'll hammer at deadline right?

I'm hoping to hammer

today.

(I haven't decided if that's by Eastern or Pacific standards yet, though.)

believe that Porochaz isn't just inactive, and if he's really avoiding my wagon for some reason,

If you'll look closly at the way you phrased your question, I think it speaks for itself.

[MrBuddyLee]

Zorblag's town, which makes sense on top of the way chamber came across. And I'm going to go read the days before the Glorkclaim again. My last read had me convinced that it was Glork's paranoia about a vigging, carried over from day two once he saw that DGB wasn't in fact the vig. He wanted to avoid getting personally lynched, and he'd laid grounds for the cop claim either late day 2 or early day 3. He discouraged vigs of CES and to a lesser extent CDB. (He wanted CDB investigated/vigged, but behind Shanba/Yos.)

[MrBuddyLee]

"How is my play as scum different from my play in this game?"

When I'm scum, I worry about needing to look protown. This is one of the biggest sources of my tendency to bus early and hard. I'm so used to being successful as town that I pretty much go into games as scum thinking "okay, how am I going to look successful without being too successful so that we can't win the game." Here, I was acutely aware of my inactivity D1, and I don't think I've been too concerned about looking protown. And goodness knows the results haven't agreed with Glorkscum. I don't much care with what other people think of me here, provided they don't try to string me up for it -- which is fairly typical of Glorktown.

I sort of feel like this is California Trilogy III all over again, and at some point the scums are going to jump on my poor performance as an excuse to run up a wagon on me.

[HackerHuck]

Ether...You accuse me of avoiding the thread, yet when I specifically ask you questions I either get no response or some rambling answer that doesn't make sense.

[Ether]

Yup.

MBL, could you elaborate on your read of chamber?