Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[Patrick]

Votecount

Porochaz (1) -- Cogito Ergo Sum

Not voting: Ether, Porochaz, Lord Gurgi, MrBuddyLee
5 alive, 3 to lynch.

[Patrick]

Porochaz has notified me of a vla until friday, and I'm poking Ether hard. The rest of you can still post.

[Lord Gurgi]

So what's going on ScuMBL? It would appear that the town is literally going to lurk itself to death.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The solution is for people to vote for Prozac.

[Ether]

Brunch, then unsynching. (This is less of a "post in 24 hours" and more of a "post in 2.")

There will probably be some stream of consciousness over past thoughts on people, and then I may have to actually reread shit. I will try to keep you posted.

[Ether]

That ran longer than I was expecting.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'll be around to chit chat this afternoon if any of you want to bounce thoughts back and forth.

So what's going on ScuMBL?

Your repeated nickel and dime comments casting baseless aspersions upon me are noted.

[Ether]

Porochaz's ridiculously idiotic grudge against me just isn't really what I'd expect from him as scum; I think Chazscum is more passive than that. His behavior toward me here feels exactly like what he did to YvonneSeer in PYP2, a game which none of you were in and it was like four years ago. So that's haunting me. Apparently he's V/LA until Friday.

I wrote CES off temporarily for some stuff, mostly around him nitpicking people's reasons for him to be town, but that's admittedly pretty weak and I should probably retire it. Honestly I have no idea what to expect from him and I've been trying to focus more on other people and process of elimination and shit.

I think MBL's failure to hammer is absolutely 100% unforgiveable and there is pretty much no way that he is not scum. I can elaborate, but since I'm in a stream of consciousness mode, I'm instead going to say that it disturbs the hell out of me that CES let this slide.

Since I'm in a stream of consciousness mode, I'm also going to say that MBL/CDB/CES + Glork is a hilarious scumteam. Ahahahahaha.

[Ether]

I should probably find some excuse to clear Gurgi. Just to be on the safe side.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Ugh. You're not seriously going to let this idiot grudge against MBL doom us, are you?

I think Chazscum is more passive than that.

If he were more passive, he wouldn't have a pulse.

I think MBL's failure to hammer is absolutely 100% unforgiveable and there is pretty much no way that he is not scum. I can elaborate, but since I'm in a stream of consciousness mode, I'm instead going to say that it disturbs the hell out of me that CES let this slide.

MBL clearly had a plan. If he had gotten the hammer in with half a minute to go, he would've been proven town and you wouldn't be in a position to throw the game away. Given the totality of his posting I'm not sure whether he would've gone for that play as scum (killing Zorblag and then you, Ether, seems like a far safer path to victory) and I really do think that MBLtown would've gone for a 10:59 hammer vote. You beating him to it doesn't tell us anything.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think MBL's failure to hammer is absolutely 100% unforgiveable and there is pretty much no way that he is not scum.

When, in your opinion, would have been the appropriate time to hammer?


Also, do you believe Gurgi when he says he forgot about the game? I believe he posted 12 hrs before deadline:

I agree with MBL this time. Zorblag you might as well vote in this circumstance, unless you think MBL's accusation has merit.

And later said:

I think MBL asked why I wasn't there at the end of the day and I just forgot about the game with the other stuff that I have going on. Sorry.

Aren't you concerned about the fact that Gurgi supposedly thought you were away for the weekend, claims to think I'm scum, and yet didn't place the lynch vote 12 hours before deadline and never returned?

[Lord Gurgi]

12 hours was long enough for you and Zorblag to have a conversation in which you didn't hammer. I just wasn't there. You're willful and I'm negligent.

CES is defending MBL on the basis that he clearly had a plan. What is the man, Rumsfeld? Tell Ether she was wrong to hammer someone who has since flipped scumz and instead should have let it slide on the hope that MBL was waiting for the last minute when she thinks he's scum already. Are you claiming scum?

[Ether]

As usual, I am not really sure if Gurgi's last post is in English but that's okay!

What's really key is that MBL's excuse for not hammering was in the name of generic "information." (And also because he was "partially in doubt." Seriously? It didn't even matter anymore; there was no way any lynch except CDB's was going to happen at that point. Though he did try to tell me otherwise at 10 minutes to deadline.) If MBL had hammered five minutes early, it (probably) wouldn't have made Patrick lock the thread sooner. He'd have gotten the same information either way.

And Ether's no longer browsing the forum.

Zorblag corrected him (at three minutes to deadline), but what was he supposed to conclude as town at the time? Dude wanted us to fail; that's all there is to it.

[MrBuddyLee]

CES is defending MBL on the basis that he clearly had a plan. What is the man, Rumsfeld? Tell Ether she was wrong to hammer someone who has since flipped scumz and instead should have let it slide on the hope that MBL was waiting for the last minute when she thinks he's scum already. Are you claiming scum?

Ether did the right thing, which is worth minor points over you, in my opinion. Who's saying she did the wrong thing? You haven't been making sense for a few days now. You clearly don't appear to be reading the game carefully, because you're missing all sorts of things.

What's really key is that MBL's excuse for not hammering was in the name of generic "information." (And also because he was "partially in doubt." Seriously? It didn't even matter anymore; there was no way any lynch except CDB's was going to happen at that point. Though he did try to tell me otherwise at 10 minutes to deadline.) If MBL had hammered five minutes early, it (probably) wouldn't have made Patrick lock the thread sooner. He'd have gotten the same information either way.

And Ether's no longer browsing the forum.

Zorblag corrected him (at three minutes to deadline), but what was he supposed to conclude as town at the time? Dude wanted us to fail; that's all there is to it.

You're wrong. I was fully prepared to cast a vote for CDB at deadline, and was about to click post when you ended up doing it first. Once again, you bring out the propaganda. I was not out for generic "information". I wanted to see several things that I couldn't have seen if I cast a vote at 6AM when I went to bed after reading the thread for several hours and finding a quote that PROVED that CDB lied about not keeping up with the thread.

* I wanted to know which, if either, of you/Gurgi was interested in actually lynching CDB. If I lynched early, either of you could have just made the excuse "well, I just logged in after you did but before deadline". This way, we actually got to see WHO wanted a lynch.
* I wanted to see if either you or Gurgi, OR CES/Zorblag, wavered on CDB when Porochaz was brought up as an option. No one wavered.

I made it clear that Gurgi was invisible and possibly reading the thread. As it turns out, he wasn't, as he has admitted. Gurgi could have hammered at 5AM but HE DIDN'T, and he NEVER RETURNED. That IS info, and not at all generic info. I gained info by waiting until the last minute to place my vote. It is possible that Ether made a crafty play and voted before me so she could co-opt the high ground. More likely, she showed up because she actually gave a shit about lynching CDB. Unlike Gurgi. Granted, life happens and not everyone can be in the thread at all times. But Zorblag was there because he gave a shit, CES was, I was, Ether was, and Gurgi and Poro weren't. Info.

Ether, I asked you about your position on Poro vs. CDB with ten minutes to go because 1) I was genuinely uncertain, and 2) I wanted to see how you leaned. Obviously if Gurgi wasn't around, nothing could have happened other than a CDB lynch, but we didn't know that. It was worth probing you for information in a game short on information. The fact that no one piped up when I expressed interest in Porochaz makes it MORE, not LESS likely, that he is CDB's scumpartner.

Ether, your proposed scumteam is again fail. It can't be Gurgi-MBL, and it pretty much can't be CES-MBL.

Also, I will bring up once again the fact that I wanted CDB dead day 4 instead of HackerHuck and made convincing cases which you all ignored when you lynched Huck. This post http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2773001 in particular showed that only Gurgi's case was sound against Huck, and Ether's and CES's were weak or no better than their cases against others. Zorblag's and Shanba's were nuanced, as you'd expect from town.

This post I made http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2774998 showed once again that Glork's D1 and D2 play made no sense if CDB is town.

This post http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2770676 pointed out how bizarre it was that no scum were voting for CDB during Huck's lynch, considering a cop and an obv-townie were on CDB, there's no way scum could resist that wagon if CDB was town.

Here http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2762676 I pointed out that CDB lied about having evidence supporting a Glork-HackerHuck scumteam.

Here, I pointed out that Glork's D2 panic about vigging made sense if CDB was scum. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2761110

Basically, I laid out a gigantic case against CDB D4 and you guys voted Huck. And I laid out solid evidence against CDB D6 and was prepared to vote him at deadline. Whoever doesn't believe that, if you're town, read up and see if you REALLY think everything I did in the days before the D4 and D6 lynch looks more like scum than town. If I was scum and knew Ether was town, I'd have dropped my vote on CDB the moment I saw her name browsing the forum. (WIFOM, yeah, whatever.) CDB was obviously going to get lynched if EtherTown was reading the game, so I'd have co-opted. But I didn't. Because I didn't think I needed to prove myself. I was just there to secure a lynch after all possible information was gained from the day.

Ether, you were wrong about Glork. Wrong about Huck. Wrong to defend CDB as scum's "innocent fall guy" all game. You now say you think you were wrong about CES, and that he's scum. You now say you think you were wrong about Porochaz when you pushed his lynch all D4. You voted CDB because there was no other option. You are wrong about me, and even though there's a chance you're scum jerking me around, I'm going to appeal to you as if you are town. Open your mind and read the totality of the game, particularly my play surrounding CDB and Glork, and see if you really think I'm scum with them. Hint: answer's no.

Gurgi, same applies to you. Wrong about Huck, defended CDB much of the game, attacked chamber all game, and ignored Glork until he made his biggest slip. If you're town, reread the game. You're missing something. Hats off if you're scum and managed to sound like town for so much of the game. But I've been working to find scum all game, and you should be able to see it.

[MrBuddyLee]

Ether and Gurgi, let's be clear here. Am I really the top suspect for both of you?

[MrBuddyLee]

Noting lack of bwahaha from MBL, my scumpicks are going strong.

When you posted this, what did you mean?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I hoped I wasn't going to have to bring this up but with Ether's recent MBL-CES suspicions I feel obliged to: I asked Patrick to prod Ether ~6 minutes before deadline.

[Porochaz]

It being strongly dependant on how much of my lab report I get done I will try and get back to this game tonight.

[Lord Gurgi]

Regarding my post: It was confirming you weren't scum with the other feasible scumteam since you didn't hammer or whatever.

MBL: You're taking cheap shots at me at this point, and it's getting old. CES was blaming Ether for hammering rather than trusting in you. I guess I'm just incoherent. CES defending you at this point considering everything else makes him even scummier. Also you're not really relevant at the moment, the choice remains between Prozac and CES. But if I had dayvig powers... You're overemphasising the value of quantity of information. Everything is information, that doesn't make it valuable. You can't know a lot of what you assume, like the fact that I did forget about the game over a 12 hour period. I do agree with you on the Gurgi-MBL scumteam, that's objectively stupid at this point. However CES-MBL works for me.

Man, the whole reason I stay invisible is so that this sort of crap about whether or not a person is there doesn't come into play. People still read the thread logged out, guys.

I have never understood why being correct about who the scum are should be the sign of a townie. Burden of Proficiency and all that.

[MrBuddyLee]

Regarding my post: It was confirming you weren't scum with the other feasible scumteam since you didn't hammer or whatever.

What scumteam was that?

MBL: You're taking cheap shots at me at this point, and it's getting old.

You're playing lazily, which is making it difficult to ascertain your alignment at endgame. You seemed townish to me earlier in the game because you noticed a lot of stuff other people were missing, or at least stuff that made sense and took thought. But now, when it matters most, you're just dialing it in. Which looks incredibly scummy from my perspective. Of course I'm going to prod and poke at you if you suspect me--either you're scum trying to win the game or town who's potentially going to lose us the game. I'm trying to figure out which.

CES was blaming Ether for hammering rather than trusting in you.

If that's what he actually was doing, it'd be scummy. Didn't look like it to me. Can you please make your argument more clearly?

CES defending you at this point considering everything else makes him even scummier.

He is a little overly strident, but I suppose if he has a really good read on me, I can understand it. Or he's scum sucking up in preparation for a final three. Believe me, I'm wary.

Also you're not really relevant at the moment, the choice remains between Prozac and CES.

So you'll probably vote for CES. Because you didn't think CDB+Poro made sense. And you find CES scummy. If that's the case, I'd like to see an end-to-end case on CES from you.

You're overemphasising the value of quantity of information. Everything is information, that doesn't make it valuable. You can't know a lot of what you assume, like the fact that I did forget about the game over a 12 hour period.

First of all, I'm not assuming anything. I said life happens and therefore we can never know for sure whether you made a mistake as town and forgot about the game in a crucial stretch. But we CAN with certainty know that you did not place a hammer vote on CDB when you visited the thread and posted with 12 hours to go. When there was no sign of Ether--she'd been AFK for 2-3 days. If you truly suspected I might be scum, you would have hammered there instead of leaving the game up to me / disappearing Ether. Instead, you left it up to me. Why? Did you want someone else dead besides CDB? If so, why didn't you push for it?

Man, the whole reason I stay invisible is so that this sort of crap about whether or not a person is there doesn't come into play. People still read the thread logged out, guys.

Were you reading the thread in the 12 hours before CDB's lynch or not? Were you one of the alts I mentioned in-thread that were checking the thread around deadline?

I have never understood why being correct about who the scum are should be the sign of a townie. Burden of Proficiency and all that.

Yos, Glork, and you all get the burden of proficiency in my book, he just comes off the worst for now. I don't want to lynch you three on day one, for example, but as time goes on I'll be more and more in support of it.

For future reference, and if you're town in this game, you shouldn't play so sloppily. It makes you look scummy.


Apologies for all the questions, but we haven't wasted four months on this game to piss it away now. Time for you to shine as a townie and do the legwork if you're actually a townie. Same applies to Ether, who's also dialing it in--way worse than you, in my opinion. And at least one of you is probably town.

[Lord Gurgi]

Regarding my post: It was confirming you weren't scum with the other feasible scumteam since you didn't hammer or whatever.

What scumteam was that?

What is the point of this. You can go back and read this, or you can ask me to do it for you.

MBL: You're taking cheap shots at me at this point, and it's getting old.

You're playing lazily, which is making it difficult to ascertain your alignment at endgame. You seemed townish to me earlier in the game because you noticed a lot of stuff other people were missing, or at least stuff that made sense and took thought. But now, when it matters most, you're just dialing it in. Which looks incredibly scummy from my perspective. Of course I'm going to prod and poke at you if you suspect me--either you're scum trying to win the game or town who's potentially going to lose us the game. I'm trying to figure out which.[/quote]But you don't mind CES because it's not like he's up for lynch or anything.

CES was blaming Ether for hammering rather than trusting in you.

If that's what he actually was doing, it'd be scummy. Didn't look like it to me. Can you please make your argument more clearly?[/quote]He said that Ether should have waited because you obviously were going to hammer at :59. What is unclear about this.

CES defending you at this point considering everything else makes him even scummier.

He is a little overly strident, but I suppose if he has a really good read on me, I can understand it. Or he's scum sucking up in preparation for a final three. Believe me, I'm wary.[/quote]Just call a spade a spade man. He's buddying to you.

Also you're not really relevant at the moment, the choice remains between Prozac and CES.

So you'll probably vote for CES. Because you didn't think CDB+Poro made sense. And you find CES scummy. If that's the case, I'd like to see an end-to-end case on CES from you.[/quote]My case is that Poro isn't scum, so CES is.

You're overemphasising the value of quantity of information. Everything is information, that doesn't make it valuable. You can't know a lot of what you assume, like the fact that I did forget about the game over a 12 hour period.

First of all, I'm not assuming anything. I said life happens and therefore we can never know for sure whether you made a mistake as town and forgot about the game in a crucial stretch. But we CAN with certainty know that you did not place a hammer vote on CDB when you visited the thread and posted with 12 hours to go. When there was no sign of Ether--she'd been AFK for 2-3 days. If you truly suspected I might be scum, you would have hammered there instead of leaving the game up to me / disappearing Ether. Instead, you left it up to me. Why? Did you want someone else dead besides CDB? If so, why didn't you push for it?[/quote]You think that I signed off my invisible account and then signed on to a visible alt?

Attempt at Clarity.

1. You think I should have hammered 12 hours before deadline.

2. CES thinks that Ether should not have hammered before deadline and let you do it instead.

3. You do not see a problem with CES's argument.

4. Why does his argument apply to Ether and not to me?

Man, the whole reason I stay invisible is so that this sort of crap about whether or not a person is there doesn't come into play. People still read the thread logged out, guys.

Were you reading the thread in the 12 hours before CDB's lynch or not? Were you one of the alts I mentioned in-thread that were checking the thread around deadline?

I have never understood why being correct about who the scum are should be the sign of a townie. Burden of Proficiency and all that.

Yos, Glork, and you all get the burden of proficiency in my book, he just comes off the worst for now. I don't want to lynch you three on day one, for example, but as time goes on I'll be more and more in support of it.

For future reference, and if you're town in this game, you shouldn't play so sloppily. It makes you look scummy.


Apologies for all the questions, but we haven't wasted four months on this game to piss it away now. Time for you to shine as a townie and do the legwork if you're actually a townie. Same applies to Ether, who's also dialing it in--way worse than you, in my opinion. And at least one of you is probably town.[/quote]

[Lord Gurgi]

I fucked up the above post.

Mod could you delete the above post, it's just an incomplete version of this one. I didn't change what I said.

Regarding my post: It was confirming you weren't scum with the other feasible scumteam since you didn't hammer or whatever.

What scumteam was that?

What is the point of this. You can go back and read this, or you can ask me to do it for you.

MBL: You're taking cheap shots at me at this point, and it's getting old.

You're playing lazily, which is making it difficult to ascertain your alignment at endgame. You seemed townish to me earlier in the game because you noticed a lot of stuff other people were missing, or at least stuff that made sense and took thought. But now, when it matters most, you're just dialing it in. Which looks incredibly scummy from my perspective. Of course I'm going to prod and poke at you if you suspect me--either you're scum trying to win the game or town who's potentially going to lose us the game. I'm trying to figure out which.

But you don't mind CES because it's not like he's up for lynch or anything.

CES was blaming Ether for hammering rather than trusting in you.

If that's what he actually was doing, it'd be scummy. Didn't look like it to me. Can you please make your argument more clearly?

He said that Ether should have waited because you obviously were going to hammer at :59. What is unclear about this.

CES defending you at this point considering everything else makes him even scummier.

He is a little overly strident, but I suppose if he has a really good read on me, I can understand it. Or he's scum sucking up in preparation for a final three. Believe me, I'm wary.

Just call a spade a spade man. He's buddying to you.

Also you're not really relevant at the moment, the choice remains between Prozac and CES.

So you'll probably vote for CES. Because you didn't think CDB+Poro made sense. And you find CES scummy. If that's the case, I'd like to see an end-to-end case on CES from you.

My case is that Poro isn't scum, so CES is.

You're overemphasising the value of quantity of information. Everything is information, that doesn't make it valuable. You can't know a lot of what you assume, like the fact that I did forget about the game over a 12 hour period.

First of all, I'm not assuming anything. I said life happens and therefore we can never know for sure whether you made a mistake as town and forgot about the game in a crucial stretch. But we CAN with certainty know that you did not place a hammer vote on CDB when you visited the thread and posted with 12 hours to go. When there was no sign of Ether--she'd been AFK for 2-3 days. If you truly suspected I might be scum, you would have hammered there instead of leaving the game up to me / disappearing Ether. Instead, you left it up to me. Why? Did you want someone else dead besides CDB? If so, why didn't you push for it?

Attempt at Clarity.

1. You think I should have hammered 12 hours before deadline.

2. CES thinks that Ether should not have hammered before deadline and let you do it instead.

3. You do not see a problem with CES's argument.

4. Why does his argument apply to Ether and not to me?

Man, the whole reason I stay invisible is so that this sort of crap about whether or not a person is there doesn't come into play. People still read the thread logged out, guys.

Were you reading the thread in the 12 hours before CDB's lynch or not? Were you one of the alts I mentioned in-thread that were checking the thread around deadline?

You think that I signed off my invisible account and then signed on to a visible alt?

I have never understood why being correct about who the scum are should be the sign of a townie. Burden of Proficiency and all that.

Yos, Glork, and you all get the burden of proficiency in my book, he just comes off the worst for now. I don't want to lynch you three on day one, for example, but as time goes on I'll be more and more in support of it.

For future reference, and if you're town in this game, you shouldn't play so sloppily. It makes you look scummy.

Uh what's the problem here? I told you I might well use Burden of Proficiency as an argument if it became relevant. You're using the inaccuracy of Ether and I compared to you to argue that you're being a better townie. I do not see why you being more accurate makes you more townie. The Burden of Proficiency, though often called a fallacy, is probably right in my opinion.

Apologies for all the questions, but we haven't wasted four months on this game to piss it away now. Time for you to shine as a townie and do the legwork if you're actually a townie. Same applies to Ether, who's also dialing it in--way worse than you, in my opinion. And at least one of you is probably town.

CES however is an exemplary, why do you give him a free pass? Do you think he's scum after all?

[MrBuddyLee]

Uh what's the problem here? I told you I might well use Burden of Proficiency as an argument if it became relevant. You're using the inaccuracy of Ether and I compared to you to argue that you're being a better townie. I do not see why you being more accurate makes you more townie. The Burden of Proficiency, though often called a fallacy, is probably right in my opinion.

I'm not saying that being more right makes me more townie. I haven't been incredibly right this game, and scum can be 100% right if they want to be. What I'm pointing out is the QUALITY of my arguments. The goal of scum is to be right without persuading anyone. They want to keep their partners alive and lynch townies while still being able to point to their "rightness" later. What I'm trying to point out is that while I was uncertain about their alignments, I posted pretty good evidence against CDB, including stuff that linked him to Glork, and I posted stuff that linked Glork to CDB BEFORE either came up scum. I actively, persistently tried to get you all to switch from Huck to CDB using evidence. That would be terrible scumplay by most objective perspectives. I have also linked Porochaz to Glork via an early Flameaxe post, and referenced it for several days now. Since at least one of Poro-CES has to be scum now, I have actually posted solid evidence linking at LEAST two of Glork's scumpartners to him. Possibly all three. (There's the obvious data linking Ether and Glork that it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to spot, so I won't take credit for harping on it, and there's really not much linking you to Glork.)

I have also previously posted about links between CES and Glork. I have more questions for him, but right now he's voting Poro, who I think very well may be scum, and you and Ether are suspecting me. Clearly, I want to hear more from Poro, and a full case from CES on Poro, but I also need to hear what's going on in your head and in Ether's. The scumteam CAN'T be Ether-Gurgi, so it's either CES-Poro, or it's one of them and one of you.

Apologies for all the questions, but we haven't wasted four months on this game to piss it away now. Time for you to shine as a townie and do the legwork if you're actually a townie. Same applies to Ether, who's also dialing it in--way worse than you, in my opinion. And at least one of you is probably town.

CES however is an exemplary, why do you give him a free pass? Do you think he's scum after all?

Quite possibly. Poro has played super scummy, and defended CDB a few times. He failed to vote entirely on D4. Ether says he's not scum based on tone--she says he'd be "passive" as scum. I'm interested to hear more from both of you on why Poro's not scum. At this point it's unlikely he'll be lynched if you both think he's town, but I want to hear the case in more depth, because the mile-high view is that Poro looks like scum based on the way he and Flameaxe have played. (Flameaxe's "weird gut town" read on Glork D1 and his uncanny accuracy in scum detection included.)

CES was massively protected by Glork.

DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today.

Dammit. We all want this. We can kill CES later.

Pretty sure you mean Shanba, not CES.

No objection if I vig CES, then?

Nah, CES is probably town.

I have also maintained that CES is fairly obviously protown.

Glorky!

We need to prioritize.

We've got CES-scum to kill.

I still don't think CES is all that likely to be scum. He's not acting like the complete obvtownCES that I saw yesterday, but my D1 read of him trumps what little questionalbe content I have seen.

Believe me, my eyes are fully open to the possibility of CES being scum. I want to hear you and Ether talk about CES and Poro more, because at least one of you two HAS to be town, and whoever makes the best arguments/posts the best reasons for picking one of CES/Poro over the other is more likely to be town. If the two of you agree, and make sense, then I know I can trust the judgment as sincere.

[Lord Gurgi]

Hoowee man. Length.

Uh what's the problem here? I told you I might well use Burden of Proficiency as an argument if it became relevant. You're using the inaccuracy of Ether and I compared to you to argue that you're being a better townie. I do not see why you being more accurate makes you more townie. The Burden of Proficiency, though often called a fallacy, is probably right in my opinion.

I'm not saying that being more right makes me more townie. I haven't been incredibly right this game, and scum can be 100% right if they want to be. What I'm pointing out is the QUALITY of my arguments. The goal of scum is to be right without persuading anyone. They want to keep their partners alive and lynch townies while still being able to point to their "rightness" later. What I'm trying to point out is that while I was uncertain about their alignments, I posted pretty good evidence against CDB, including stuff that linked him to Glork, and I posted stuff that linked Glork to CDB BEFORE either came up scum. I actively, persistently tried to get you all to switch from Huck to CDB using evidence. That would be terrible scumplay by most objective perspectives. I have also linked Porochaz to Glork via an early Flameaxe post, and referenced it for several days now. Since at least one of Poro-CES has to be scum now, I have actually posted solid evidence linking at LEAST two of Glork's scumpartners to him. Possibly all three. (There's the obvious data linking Ether and Glork that it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to spot, so I won't take credit for harping on it, and there's really not much linking you to Glork.)

I don't see why you can process that screwing your teammates is not something that scum would do, but you don't understand why I greatly doubt that Prozac and CDB would do it to each other. But anyway, if you want to go after someone for empty cases and shameless bandwagons, CES is right over there. I mean, I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what you say here. I think that presenting long and complex cases helps scum hide. Cases should be simple and based in logic. I think that if you want to, you can make a convincing case for anyone being scum, given enough information. Winning an argument is based more upon the skill of the arguer than the merit of the case. I've said this before earlier on.

But anyway, if the goal of the scum is to be right and not persuade anyone, isn't that what you just admitted to? Failing to get us to lynch CDB until now, etc. etc.?

I have also previously posted about links between CES and Glork. I have more questions for him, but right now he's voting Poro, who I think very well may be scum, and you and Ether are suspecting me. Clearly, I want to hear more from Poro, and a full case from CES on Poro, but I also need to hear what's going on in your head and in Ether's. The scumteam CAN'T be Ether-Gurgi, so it's either CES-Poro, or it's one of them and one of you.

So try it again from my perspective. The same is true of Ether-MBL. Between the two of you, the choice is pretty easy, given CES's behaviour. Most of my arguments and scumpicks derive from my belief that CDB wouldn't have screwed over Prozac. Then it all just follows from there.

Apologies for all the questions, but we haven't wasted four months on this game to piss it away now. Time for you to shine as a townie and do the legwork if you're actually a townie. Same applies to Ether, who's also dialing it in--way worse than you, in my opinion. And at least one of you is probably town.

CES however is an exemplary, why do you give him a free pass? Do you think he's scum after all?

Quite possibly. Poro has played super scummy, and defended CDB a few times. He failed to vote entirely on D4. Ether says he's not scum based on tone--she says he'd be "passive" as scum. I'm interested to hear more from both of you on why Poro's not scum. At this point it's unlikely he'll be lynched if you both think he's town, but I want to hear the case in more depth, because the mile-high view is that Poro looks like scum based on the way he and Flameaxe have played. (Flameaxe's "weird gut town" read on Glork D1 and his uncanny accuracy in scum detection included.)

Like I said, it's all about the CDB-Prozac thing. Everything else I think is a far second to that.

CES was massively protected by Glork.

DGB, you may be onto something here. I'm still not convinced on CES, but I'm liking both Shanba and CDB as lynchfodder today.

Dammit. We all want this. We can kill CES later.

Pretty sure you mean Shanba, not CES.

No objection if I vig CES, then?

Nah, CES is probably town.

I have also maintained that CES is fairly obviously protown.

Glorky!

We need to prioritize.

We've got CES-scum to kill.

I still don't think CES is all that likely to be scum. He's not acting like the complete obvtownCES that I saw yesterday, but my D1 read of him trumps what little questionalbe content I have seen.

Believe me, my eyes are fully open to the possibility of CES being scum. I want to hear you and Ether talk about CES and Poro more, because at least one of you two HAS to be town, and whoever makes the best arguments/posts the best reasons for picking one of CES/Poro over the other is more likely to be town. If the two of you agree, and make sense, then I know I can trust the judgment as sincere.

See you basing your read off of which of us makes a better argument is a problem. Not only do I think that it's a crap way to do it if you're town, but it takes the burden off of you.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES was blaming Ether for hammering rather than trusting in you.

Far from it. That move made perfect sense. It made sense for MBL to want to wait, but the rest of the players obviously don't want to let him get that sort of power. If I hadn't wanted Ether to hammer, I wouldn't've asked Patrick to prod her.

CES defending you at this point considering everything else makes him even scummier.

Ether accused me of letting him slide vis a vis the deadline happenings, so I explained my read on MBL in that situation. Explaining things when prompted is not scummy.