Newbie 1080 -- Game over

[Does Bo Know]

Okay, just read through the rest of Moon's ISO posts. Let me summarize what's going on for you folks:

- In the beginning of the game, Moon argues her position for the Shift vote, doubts herself, and still keeps the vote on Shift after doubting herself over a silly reason. This confuses me.
- She unvotes Shift finally, and instantly attacks Jack. Yes. Moon's next suspect was Jack after Shift's mishap. I don't think Moon and Jack could've planned this move pre-game, that move being an attempt to get somebody lynched (Jack and Moon both voted Shift at the time, anyway), and if that failed, they'd turn on each other. Jack's only on his second game, and Moon hasn't played online before, I believe.
- She actually finds more arguments against Jack (not really finding, more like agreeing and applying). Jack is lynched after brundibar hammers...err...and Jack didn't provide a good defense.

At this point in the reading, I made the Unvote on Moonstruck. I'll go do an errand, come back, and give you D2 of Moonstruck. Though, before then, I would like those who have voted Moon to read the ISOs before hammering or anything, please.

[Hiraki]

From this, it looks like Moon is able to buss effectively.

Also, how can Moon attack but then find arguments? Didn't she already--

Fuck. Fine. I'll read them.

[Does Bo Know]

From this, it looks like Moon is able to buss effectively.

Also, how can Moon attack but then find arguments? Didn't she already--

Fuck. Fine. I'll read them.

Sorry, that was a summary. What I have written down is:

"She takes the vote off Shift, looks at Jack as scummy, and does actually counter with his lurking argument. I think at this point in the ISO read, I feel like I should unvote Moon to relieve pressure. Let me read the rest."

I honestly didn't look at anyone else's posts, so I didn't know if Moon was taking other arguments against Jack and rewording, but I also stated that she found

more

arguments, whether they be her own or anyone else's. It just shocks me that as soon as the vote's off of Shift, she keeps Jack as a prime suspect. That doesn't seem incredibly scummy. But that's not where I'm done.

---

Now, back to D2's Moon ISO post summary (well, mine, anyway)

- As soon as Day 2 begins, Moonstruck instantly points a vote on Brundibar for the first post. I've read Moon's ISOs enough to know that every single one of Moon's arguments against Brundi was already said, so I think she was essentially using others' ideas for her vote. I didn't put this in the previous summary as, like I said, her arguments were repeating others.
- She then unvotes Brundi instantly because it's too close to the lynch. Not a huge problem, I don't think.
- Something I don't like anymore is people answering questions for other people. That's what Moon does when Plague asks Brundi why the scum should be newbie, Moon answers possibilities, Brundi agrees with Moon, and Moon complains that she shouldn't have given scum anything to defend themselves. Umm...what? Moon was partially defending Brundi anyway, so what's wrong with Brundi agreeing? Nothing.

I don't like this confidence switch.

- Then, of course, the rest is history, because the rest contains all the reasons to vote Moon for scum today.

Now, I'm not too confident in Moon's lynching anymore. Of course, I'd advise everyone to read the ISOs and find specific reasons for lynching/not lynching Moon, but one thing pisses me off. Moon, you wanted me to read your ISOs and ask you questions. I have no logical questions right now. You wanted to wait for that, as you were curious about what I had to say. I think you're perhaps the most confusing player this game.

I think the main reason we can be confused about who the other scum is is because not enough new information had been tossed around D1. A lot of it was just agreeing with one another, and some was even just following everyone else's statements and voting on that. It's hard to find something scummy when it's repeated in different wording more times than one.

Unless more

new

logic can be put forth from D1, it's tough to think about playstyles from D1, as it truly consists of many following others instead of composing new arguments. I haven't done anything else except think about this Mafia since the last post. Well, and eat. But I don't have time to read the entire topic for possibilities ATM. Though, there's an awkward proposal I might discuss later. Not now though, unfortunately.

[Does Bo Know]

I think we should lynch Brundibar over Moonstruck. First, he's scummy, so it would get rid of a scummy suspect regardless. Second, we win game if he's scum. Third, if he's town, not only does it question Hiraki's knowing of Brundi's town status earlier, but it would put quite a rip in Shift's confidence toward Brundiscum. This also includes the fact Shift had a vote on Brundi instead of Jack when Jack was lynched. And fourth, if he is town, we still have at least 2 days to search.

The only thing holding me back is that only Shift is brought in as a new possible suspect later. The fact that we have 2 scummy people and 3 days to find them isn't exactly something good. I feel we need at least as many suspects as days to lynch the last mafia at this point.

Pulling a "Brundi play" here, but it's just an idea, and I won't vote for Brundi yet,

but

I want to see what Shift ends up saying Thursday, as this Brundi lynch has a side effect of bringing him out. Of course, he shouldn't question it since his confidence for Brundiscum is incredibly high. But we shall see.

[theplague42]

Oh, oh God. My confidence in ultra-town DBK was just shot. Hiraki, I'd specifically like your opinion on this as well.

If this was the only post of yours (DBK), I'd consider you

extremely

scummy. You've been very solid all game, but this post just reeks.

I think we should lynch Brundibar over Moonstruck.

First,

he's scummy, so it would get rid of a scummy suspect regardless.

Second,

we win game if he's scum.

Third,

if he's town, not only does it question Hiraki's knowing of Brundi's town status earlier, but it would put quite a rip in Shift's confidence toward Brundiscum. This also includes the fact Shift had a vote on Brundi instead of Jack when Jack was lynched.

And fourth,

if he is town, we still have at least 2 days to search.

Your fourth reason is just ridiculous. Your second reason is also invalid. If we lynch Hiraki and he's scum, we win the game. If we lynch you and you're scum, we win the game. Same goes for me, Shift, everyone. It's not a reason to vote for brundibar specifically.

The first reason is just a general comment more than a specific argument for lynching him. It's not a concrete reason to lynch him. The third one makes absolutely no sense. If brundi is lynched and flips town, then how would there be any confidence on Shift's part that brundi was still scum???

The only thing holding me back is that only Shift is brought in as a new possible suspect later. The fact that we have 2 scummy people and 3 days to find them isn't exactly something good. I feel we need at least as many suspects as days to lynch the last mafia at this point.

So you'd rather have no extra days to lynch scum instead of having a safety-blanket day?

Pulling a "Brundi play" here, but it's just an idea, and I won't vote for Brundi yet,

but

I want to see what Shift ends up saying Thursday, as this Brundi lynch has a side effect of bringing him out. Of course, he shouldn't question it since his confidence for Brundiscum is incredibly high. But we shall see.

So right now, you're admitting to "Pulling a Brundi play," the very same person you want to get lynched! Anyone else see something wrong here?

[theplague42]

Addendum: As for the first half of the third reason, no matter what I (stupidly) said earlier, I don't think that Hiraki-scum would defend brundi so diligently. Nobody else seems to think that brundi is town, so Hiraki could easily get brundi lynched.

That being said, I seriously doubt that DBK is scum just because of Shift's post 206, specifically regarding the voting record of DBK.

[martini]

Hmm, I have to agree with theplague about this last post, it... wasn't as good as your other posts, softly speaking.
theplague has already addressed most of the things I found wrong with it.

Third, if he's town, not only does it question Hiraki's knowing of Brundi's town status earlier,

What exactly do you mean by this?

while reading jack's ISO i found this:

Moon- You say that having a eager vote is a scum tell cus #54 "mafia wants to get rid of town quickly"... so dose that mean the first person to vote in each game is scum? Someone has to get voted on to get people talking and I don't think that first/eager vote is a scum tell.

town

Jack is calling moonstruck town because they disagree on a scumtell? seems strange.
nothing really seems to stand out on the D1 moonstruck ISO, though

[Does Bo Know]

hehehe, seem my possible plan isn't exactly welcomed by many.

I wouldn't have even thought about this if I wasn't unsure about Moon's D1 posts. If D1 pointed more toward Moonscum, this idea wouldn't have even passed through my head.

But it did.

---

Hi, Plague! My fourth reason isn't ridiculous, as it provides the fact that if Brundi is town, we're not doomed to lose as town. Yes, of course, my second reason is invalid. Just thought it would get a point across. The first one is actually invalid as well; again, to get a point across. The third one probably just isn't worded right. What I meant was that Shift has been incredibly confident in Brundi's being town throughout the majority of the game. However, if Brundi is town like Hiraki entirely believes, why was Shift's confidence so large that he kept the vote on Brundi as "#1 scum suspect" even though Jack was the wagon, and Jack was scum? Something about that makes me uncomfortable.

In response to this, Plague:

So you'd rather have no extra days to lynch scum instead of having a safety-blanket day?

I want to make sure we have at least as many suspects as days left because of this:

Just saying, if Moonstruck and Brundi aren't scum, this will be one hell of a game D4.

Well, as far as the "Brundi play" I made, it was solely the fact that I wasn't lynching someone for reasons I already mentioned. But I had a reason to not vote Brundi, hence the bolded

but

later in the statement.

And I have the same opinion about Hiraki's town status, along with the fact that he was on the start of the wagon that lynched Jack. I think Hiraki's the most-confirmed town at this point.

---

Martini, what I meant by questioning Hiraki's knowing of Brundi's town status earlier, I was just saying that Hiraki was pretty confident in Brunditown. If Brundi turned out town, who knows whether he just knew or it would get him brownie points if he were scum. Well, now that I read it again and how it's used, I don't like it either, considering I think Hiraki's town anyway. -1 for DBK.

And Martini, the rest of your post reminded me to read Jack's ISO, but apparently you already did that. Did you find anything else about Jack's ISO that points to Moonstruck besides the part you mentioned?

[Hiraki]

Oh, oh God. My confidence in ultra-town DBK was just shot. Hiraki, I'd specifically like your opinion on this as well.

I waited a while for reactions. Plague is obv. town now. DBK is really on the edge now. If you all can't stand lynching Moonstruck, I'm good for lynching DBK now.

Hi, Plague! My fourth reason isn't ridiculous, as it provides the fact that if Brundi is town, we're not doomed to lose as town. Yes, of course, my second reason is invalid. Just thought it would get a point across.

No shit sherlock. If we lynch anyone now, that isn't scum, town can't lose. We have Mislynches left. Also, the wording of this is a bit iffy. I could totally see "we're not doomed to lose as town" as a scum trying to rephrase his post to not look like a scumslip. Small tell for now. Also, why would you ever agree that your second reason was invalid? Getting a point across is like saying I can smack a tennis ball with a racket, and guess what? IT'LL GO IN THE WAY THAT I HIT IT. AH HA!

The first one is actually invalid as well; again, to get a point across. The third one probably just isn't worded right. What I meant was that Shift has been incredibly confident in Brundi's being town throughout the majority of the game. However, if Brundi is town like Hiraki entirely believes, why was Shift's confidence so large that he kept the vote on Brundi as "#1 scum suspect" even though Jack was the wagon, and Jack was scum? Something about that makes me uncomfortable.

Again, racket tennis ball. The third one is a bit screwy now. You're basing that we should lynch off of opinion on why people are scummy. Bascially, you're using Brundi as a test lynch in basis for other lynches. The funny part is, is that you are not involved in these equations, and therefore you're looking to lynch everyone but yourself. Yes, I realize the point is that you stay alive to help your faction, but this looks too much like opportunstic scum here.

I want to make sure we have at least as many suspects as days left because of this:

So, what you're saying is, is that now you're going to re-examine everyone because you're not sure of your scumreads? What?

Fuck. I don't care about a D4 with no real lynches when we start. It's D2 damnit, and we're focusing on D2. Not D4.

Well, as far as the "Brundi play" I made, it was solely the fact that I wasn't lynching someone for reasons I already mentioned. But I had a reason to not vote Brundi, hence the bolded but later in the statement.

Um. So this confirms my theory that you're wanting to lynch Brundi to test what he'll flip, right?

And I have the same opinion about Hiraki's town status, along with the fact that he was on the start of the wagon that lynched Jack. I think Hiraki's the most-confirmed town at this point.

Welp. I'll be alive tomorrow fellahs.

Jack is calling moonstruck town because they disagree on a scumtell? seems strange.

Jack realized that it looked like a town v/s town argument. He tried to play that by calling Moontown. Then again, this could be a soft scum defense.

I don't really care though.

[theplague42]

Oh, oh God. My confidence in ultra-town DBK was just shot. Hiraki, I'd specifically like your opinion on this as well.

I waited a while for reactions.

It was only 12 minutes

Unvote

Vote: DBK

Admitting that two of your reasons were made up to "make a point," claiming that your wording was wrong/we misunderstood, trying to find scumreads on people to have an equal number of people as days left.... Anyone else seeing some really bad stuff going down here? Claiming that he was misunderstood is generally a big scumtell. Not to mention that he wants to set up a series of chainlynches

that will lose if they're all town lynches!

I'm ok with back-to-back lynches in some situations, but never three or more, especially when those are the only three we will get. Right now I wanna lynch DBK, with brundibar or Moonstruck as alternates.

[Hiraki]

True, I was talking more about the first post.

...

Which you hadn't touched.

Le soupir. Let's switch then, yah?

Yah.

Unvote, Vote: DBK

[[Moonstruck]]

- In the beginning of the game, Moon argues her position for the Shift vote, doubts herself, and still keeps the vote on Shift after doubting herself over a silly reason. This confuses me.

I kept my vote on Shift until I felt RVS was actually over and I could try to place a reasonable vote, like on Jack.

- Something I don't like anymore is people answering questions for other people. That's what Moon does when Plague asks Brundi why the scum should be newbie, Moon answers possibilities, Brundi agrees with Moon, and Moon complains that she shouldn't have given scum anything to defend themselves. Umm...what? Moon was partially defending Brundi anyway, so what's wrong with Brundi agreeing? Nothing. I don't like this confidence switch.

I thought I was being helpful by giving the possibilities, one scummy one not so scummy, but Brundi used the not so scummy one in his own defense and I realized I had made a mistake by giving him an effortless way to defend himself, which he may not have been able to do without my post but now we'll never know. So that's why I went back on it.

Now, I'm not too confident in Moon's lynching anymore. Of course, I'd advise everyone to read the ISOs and find specific reasons for lynching/not lynching Moon, but one thing pisses me off. Moon, you wanted me to read your ISOs and ask you questions. I have no logical questions right now. You wanted to wait for that, as you were curious about what I had to say. I think you're perhaps the most confusing player this game.

I don't really understand this paragraph. Does me being confusing piss you off, or me wanting you to read the ISOs?

while reading jack's ISO i found this:

Moon- You say that having a eager vote is a scum tell cus #54 "mafia wants to get rid of town quickly"... so dose that mean the first person to vote in each game is scum? Someone has to get voted on to get people talking and I don't think that first/eager vote is a scum tell.

town

Jack is calling moonstruck town because they disagree on a scumtell? seems strange.

I think he was trying to bring out arguments against someone besides himself by repeating Quil's argument, but didn't want to cause suspicion by accusing people of being scum with no evidence. I could be wrong though.

Ninja'ed by Hiraki and Plague: Don't have time to say anything about possible DBKscum, maybe tomorrow.

[theplague42]

Ah, gotcha. That was me being too tired that night.

Just looked at DBK's voting history. RVS'd Jack, (common?) distancing technique. Then unvotes, claing he didn't want Jack at L-1. Then votes Jack again, unvotes, then votes to be the 3rd person on the lynch. Not once does he vote for someone else. This doesn't really point to scum for me, but I'm inexperienced with voting analysis.

Hiraki, what do you make of it?

PEdit: And now we have a post by Moonstruck. I can't really make anything of it. I'll read more closely tomorrow. Appears to be all explanations of his actions.

[Hiraki]

Scum that isn't sure if want to buss on D1. More convincing to me really.

[theplague42]

Scum that isn't sure if want to buss on D1. More convincing to me really.

Actually, that fits the profile quite well. (Criminal Minds was on tonight)

[brundibar]

Woo okay, a lot to work with.

I'll start from my last post and work my way forward, so I apologize if any of my early thoughts here have been discussed.

I agree completely with Plague that Brundi has made a good post, though I'd like to know why Brundibar thinks Martini is scum #2.

This wasn't really much of a "I think Martini is scum" post as much as "Nobody really stands out scummy at the moment besides Moon, but Martini was my previous suspect" I wasn't incredibly ready to hop on the Moon wagon with a vote because a few bad posts shouldn't warrant a lynch in such a short time. I feel like we've been flipping a lot lately and I'm not really going to vote unless anyone provides anything convincing enough that the town would benefit form a lynch of them, or if pressure is needed.

And then suddenly we switch to a DBK wagon. While both Plague and Hiraki are bringing up good points, I feel like DBK has been a strong enough player to not quick-lynch with one bad post. I'm going to wait a bit for more discussion before making a decision and voting.

What I meant was that Shift has been incredibly confident in Brundi's being town throughout the majority of the game.

(Post 332)

I'm assuming that's just a typo and not a slip of any kind.

Moon made a decent post, that at least takes some of the suspicion off.

Right now my top 3 would be:

1. DBK
2. Moon
3. Martini, I suppose

Although I don't have enough confidence in any of them.

[Does Bo Know]

Hm, I see that once I throw an idea out there, the vote switches onto me. Lovely.

Admitting that two of your reasons were made up to "make a point," claiming that your wording was wrong/we misunderstood, trying to find scumreads on people to have an equal number of people as days left.... Anyone else seeing some really bad stuff going down here? Claiming that he was misunderstood is generally a big scumtell. Not to mention that he wants to set up a series of chainlynches that will lose if they're all town lynches! I'm ok with back-to-back lynches in some situations, but never three or more, especially when those are the only three we will get. Right now I wanna lynch DBK, with brundibar or Moonstruck as alternates.

All of that is valid. Except when people "misunderstood" or "I worded things wrong," I didn't change them to try to make them sound townie or anything. If I did, point them out.

Well, all of Hiraki's points are valid too. Ouch. It seems that entire idea is the reason why I'm the next target. Now I know what

not

to do next game.

You know, at this point, I'm literally speechless. My defenses for this idea won't work since it was an idea that was scrapped into every little shred and countered with reasons why it's scummy, and I find those counters legit. I've literally spent half an hour (or maybe even an hour) just sitting here wondering what to say. And there's no excuse for that...I'm just stuck.

Ninja'd due to nothingness of my part: It was a typo, Brundi (not truly believable now, since it points away from my scumminess). Thanks for pointing that out. And ironically as soon as I'm about to say how stuck I am, brundi says that I'm a

strong enough player

that I shouldn't be quicklynched with one post.

[Hiraki]

YES. THIS WAGON. BEAUTIFUL.

COME CHILDREN. THE SPRINGTIME OF YOUTH IS ERRUPTING!

[theplague42]

Actually, DBK should be supporting this lynch. After all, now we have three suspects.

[Does Bo Know]

Actually, DBK should be supporting this lynch. After all, now we have three suspects.

I was actually going to throw that remark in there as sarcasm.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 2.08

brundibar - 2 - Shift, [Moonstruck]
Does Bo Know - 2 - theplague42, Hiraki

Not Voting: brundibar, martini, Does Bo Know

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline: April 17.

V/LA: Shift, through Thursday, April 7

[theplague42]

Need moar posts from martini and Shift!

[martini]

Need moar posts from martini and Shift!

yesyesyes I am usually able to post around this time of the day

there is one thing that's been bugging me about DBK:
if he is scum, why the hell would he have done this?
before those last few posts, he was considered one of the most pro-town by all of us, and he knew himself that his proposal was "awkward":

"Though, there's an awkward proposal I might discuss later. Not now though, unfortunately.

why would he, as mafia, have given up this ideal position he was in?

for the rest: he himself is even saying that he's scummy.

I feel like we've been flipping a lot lately

agreed, this day almost looks like a D1

Hiraki, I don't get your tennis ball/racket metaphor.

[theplague42]

@martini
Claiming your idea is crazy and admitting that you're scummy is often a weak attempt to seem town. If it comes under fire, then he can just say "well, I did say it was a crazy idea." IIRC, I already said this regarding brundi I believe.

[Hiraki]

@martini
Claiming your idea is crazy and admitting that you're scummy is often a weak attempt to seem town. If it comes under fire, then he can just say "well, I did say it was a crazy idea." IIRC, I already said this regarding brundi I believe.

This.

The tennis analogy was pretty bad. But here's the point. If I do something, and I know the circumstances of my action, then what is the point of labeling it if it's obvious?