130.Mirror Mafia - Game Over

[Zdenek]

\confirm

[Zdenek]

CJMiller's request for V/LA should not be treated as a scum-slip.

1. Your boss comes out with an important project and gives it to you. It is extremely hard, but if you complete it by yourself, you get all the praise and a raise. Do you work alone, or gather a small group to work with you?

2. You begin playing a new strategy game you have never played before. You are going to play this game with your friend in 3 days for an unknown prize. Do you study yourself, or use a computer to assist you in mastering it?

3. You are tired and walking home one day when someone hops off their bike and leaves it unlocked to quickly buy some groceries. Do you steal the bike and ride home?

1. Small group.
2. Depends on the game.
3. No.

Why did you ask these questions?

Using random.org to generate a number from 1-21 I got: 14.

Relinquishing responsibility for a vote is scummy.

Evilpacman, you probably shouldn't have claimed. As far as what strategy you should use now, I'd say aim to hide behind people you are leaning town on to confirm them, and claim them after you have a few names to give us, so that scum doesn't just kill off all the confirmed townies as you announce them. Maybe try to lightly breadcrumb it, so that if you die it won't be in vain. Or do what Calcifer suggested.

Regarding Pacman's claim:

third party much?

Doesn't answer the questions and fails to consider the claim as a possible town role, and instead jumps to cast doubt on Pacman.

Thor can be town for the time being.

random voting stage. operative word: random

Reactive and defensive.

in all seriousness though, my vote was probably more serious than any of the other votes currently up, so ya.
unvote if it makes you feel better. its just a RVS vote anyway, not like im gonna keep it there.

Bizarre appeasement.

Vote Acronach

[Zdenek]

well third party are inherantly anti-town, so you should try to lynch a player you think is confirmed townie :/

Well, third party aren't always anti-town, for instance, neutral survivor (Furc and Gollum pointed this out), and as far as lynching a confirmed town player goes, all I have to say is, "What?"

i got confused . . . .

Ok.

I honestly believe that if that slot *was* scum than the mod would have restarted because the comment did look questionable.

By the same token, we shouldn't treat the spot as confirmed town. I think that post is best ignored.

Second that question.

That was in reference to Twistedspoon's miswording, which he's already explained, so Nocmen's not reading the thread.

inb4 really weak explanation involving wanting to get on record those who will try to be solo stars or bend the rules versus those who will work with groups or within confines. Never mind the fact he could have asked with game related examples for more accuracy in the read.

Why do you feel the need to answer for his questions for him?

I think Bub's reasons for getting on the Acronach wagon were pretty poor.

Flinter's defence of Acronach is unwarranted at this point in the game.

This post is what you can wait for from eager scum. Acronach obviously is the weakest player of the first part of the game. He quite new (shown from the hider comment from epicmafia, and also other posts), he's enthousiast, meaning that acronach posts enough for some material early game. He's the easiest target. And scum jumps on eagerly.

Ignoring the scummy play of new players is a grave mistake.

I have to say I am really not a fan of all of this WIFOM out of RVS stuff. I mean, I understand the point of it but I will choose not to partake in it until I actually have a case against someone and so far I do not.

This is coasting through the early game without stating opinions.

[Zdenek]

He clearly made mistakes, but did they anywhere show a scummy intent?

Maybe not scummy intent, but I think his play shows a scummy mindset, especially his unvote.

Calcifer-Mastin, after There Will Be Bloodshed, do you think you could provide some kind of rationale for you reads, so that I'll be able to judge how seriously to take them. I'm fine with reading whatever walls you end up writing.

-I was going to say zd looked town, for defending CJ. Then, he votes for CJ's replacement, creating a contradiction. (Nacho?)

There is absolutely no contradiction here. I don't that post should be used to judge his alignment, but since then, I think Acronach has done scummy things.

-Okay, it's official. Zd's contradicting himself and is pretty much confirmed scum. This is the SECOND time he's had contradicting Acro reads.
Saying that Bub jumping on the Acro wagon was poor, while saying the defense of Acro was unwarranted? Does not compute.

Again, there is no contraction here. I think there are good reasons to vote for Acronach, but that Bub's reason was stupid.

As far as the defence being unwarranted goes, perhaps I'm a little sensitive to this issue after replacing into There Will Be Bloodshed, but in that game your absolute town read on someone contributed quite a bit to the loss of the game for the town, and has made me strongly think that it is best to let new players deal with the pressure resulting from what could be just mistakes, and if they are town, hopefully convince people of that through their play, instead of being let of the hook early and ignored.

I've never been in a game with hydras before but I have a feeling this is going to get obnoxious.

@Zdenek, I'm not opposed to giving my opinions, but I am not one for going off of first impressions because they are so often wrong and lead to biases down the line so I will be taking my time putting them out there.

As for CJ's comment, I believe it should be taken as neither a scum nor town tell. Poorly worded statements from either alignment have put me through hell before so I hate judging people based solely off of a weird sentence.

All you've seen that is worthy of you commenting on it is that hydras can be "obnoxious" and something that happened during confirmation?

Though I have to ask you, could you please not make posts with a large amount of small quotes? Its now and then quite hard to read.

What would you have me do? As far as I can tell, this is one of the more effective ways of posting. If I don't put quotes in, it makes it hard for the people I am not addressing directly to know what I am talking about, and just writing long paragraphs were I paraphrase the things I am addressing, doesn't seem to make reading the post any easier.

They were much better than a random vote, and at that stage of the game, anything better than a random vote is a good vote. But why are you questioning your own wagon?

As far as twistedspoon, I don't have a scum read on him. I just finished a game with him where he was town, and he played similar to this. Also, his posts generally have a vibe of honesty that you don't usually see with scum. Right now I'm going to call it a null read, though.

Vote: Pine

Stop watching TV and get in the game, please.

I am just questioning your vote on it.

Link to the game please.

I don't like Bub's read on Twistedspoon: he's playing like town, he has a vibe of honesty, but I'm going with null. It just seems like he's trying to justify not voting for Twistedspoon, but keeping his options open to get on vote for him later if necessary.

Also, his reasons for voting Acronach were "much better than random" but now he's going with pressuring a lurker as soon as that wagon starts to fall apart.

Unvote
Vote Bub

Four people on day one in 5 pages of actual content... goodness that's some confidence. Thor, can you please give me reasons why myself, bub, and magister are scum, because I feel like that may have come out of absolutely no where.

Bub acts like that in every game. His attitude is nothing new so I'm not convinced on any case of his as of yet. So far, so much has been posted with very little of it actually being useful I can see why he's only answering questions directed towards him. And jumping in when Thor is on the rampage doesn't seem like a good idea. :/

The first paragraph here is purely reactive, and the second one is vague support of Bub. It also looks like she is trying to excuse her own play with her support of Bub's.

Cecily, exactly what does Bub act like and could you provide a link to a game where he does whatever it is your referring to?

Buy or sell: If Bub is town, Ion is scum.

I agree that Ion's vote looks bad, but I'm hesitant to lynch based on relational tells like that one.

I have yet to tell someone that they are failing at life.. When I do, it will be blatantly obvious.

And I will repeat what I said in my first non confirmation post: I do not have reads on people yet. I take as much time as I damn well please and don't see the point in rushing it and making myself look stupid for having to take it back four times. I can almost guarantee I will not be the leader of any wagon at least in these first few days because I just do not have the time to be on here and carefully reading everything everyone posts constantly.

And you've mistaken my sarcasm for an attack. I will be sarcastic towards you, Thor, pretty much constantly I assure you. I do not find you scummy, just annoying.

This is terrible. Cecily's play has been lazy. She is making excuses for her current scummy play, where she fails to takes any stances, and for her future scummy play when she gets on a wagon, while just agreeing with what other people say. Her excuse of not having time is awful.

Mod: Ctorj's vote is on Acronach

[Zdenek]

Cecily, could you respond to my last post?

Cecily, exactly what does Bub act like and could you provide a link to a game where he does whatever it is your referring to?

Mastin, why is Nacho not posting?

I am in agreement with Thor regarding Zombeh's comment about how it make us much sense to vote for TheJakalope as it does Pine for posting in other games instead of this one, that it seems like an attempt to deflect attention from Pine/

I also find TheJakalope's reaction to it scummy. First off all, he showed up when his name was called, and he used the same rationale for not posting as Cecily used to justify not posting reads early in the game.

That makes sense. I didn't realize the part where you hide behind scum you die, I thought it was only if the person you hid behind was killed.

I agree with Farside that considering Nocmen's join date, it's hard to believe that he doesn't know how average hiders work.

As far as the rest of his ISO 5 goes: it reads like a lame response to a little pressure.

He address Gollum's suspicion of him for piggy-backing Arc with

So wait, because I agreed that we shouldnt lynch pacman today in order to test out his claim, I'm piggybacking Arc?

which seems too defensive.

He also softly attacks Arc, Flinter and Ion with

Don't like Arch's play, especially the OMGUS, but something doesn't make sense.

Flinter - The posts he makes seem like he's trying to explain a bit too much of what he thought. Seems a bit too much on the defensive

Ion's vote on Bub - out of the blue, very concerning.

It seems everyone here has a reason to vote anyone as scummy and what is considered scum is completely subjective. By trying to persuade others of your view on who is scummy (the point of this game), we see insight into how you think. A LOT of the posts here, however, attempt to quickly categorize people into alignments. As if anyone here would be so obvious, is my thinking. A lot of assumptions going on here, many of them wrong.

Also, it seems you can break down everyone's logic into not making sense, except your own. Wow. There's a word for that.

Since my vote was never serious, I'll unvote seeing as his reaction did not strike me as scummy and perfectly normal.

Also, I'm not a big typer. Being new to ms, I should let you know that off the bat. This is as long as my posts get.

This is pointless fluff, and considering that there are things that are worth commenting on, it is blatant active lurking, and his unvote was appeasing.

[Zdenek]

I think Zombeh looks bad in 248 because he seems to misinterpret some things that people are saying in order to make certain points.

Sorry, if you look at my other games, I rarely like posting in the first couple pages, I find most reads you gain from the first couple pages are usually just misunderstandings, so I don't have many reads early in the game.

You don't have to have many reads to post early in the game. Lame excuse.

The number of reads someone possesses has little to do with whether or not they are misunderstandings.

Ctorj49 (2/11): Acronach, Zombeh-Pug <--Ctorj is a newbie. Keeping that in mind, think newb-town versus newb-scum; which is it?

I'd say leave the newbie defense in the road to rome. I still find him most suspicious right now.

Considering that Calcifer has ctorj in both their town and their scum lists, it doesn't really seem like they were using the newbie defence here, but just being careful.

Thor on Furclow:

I'm a big boy and can defend myself, the scummiest thing I've seen you do thus far today is all the blatant buddying.

For what it is worth, I've seen Furc buddy a lot as town.

I don't like MrTrow's 279 because it lacks scum-hunting. He jokes with Pine, he comments about his playstyle to Furclow, he asks Calcifer for explanations, he talks about Pacman's claim.

More importantly, MrTrow talks about the logic of the argument that Ion is scum if Bub is town. This is noteworthy because scum often likes to make purely logical arguments because they are bound to be correct. He also carefully goes through the argument about whether 3rd party is alive at lylo means an auto loss for town. Neither of these efforts contributes to scum hunting.

At the end of all of it, he votes for Caboose for not voting Furclow, and later he says that it was a pressure vote.

So he has found nothing scummy worth commenting on all game.

Unvote
Vote MrTrow

[Zdenek]

<<<It would be far easier to list the things which Gollum has done that are town, rather than the quite extensive list of things making them scum. Seriously, look at Gollum's posts, and tell me, with a straight face, that it's pro-town play. I DARE you to.>>>

More than that: Gollum is confirmed scum by VCA; a Gollum-scum lynch would also create someone else who's confirmed town by VCA. And if SOMEHOW Gollum is town, said person would instead by confirmed-scum.
In other words, we get a guaranteed scum flip with Gollum, or the other person, and if we get the scum first, the other is confirmed-town.

Well, I agree that Gollum has been scummy, but he voted Acronach early, and has left his vote there and he also hasn't been active in almost a week, so I don't see how VCA confirms him as scum or how him flipping scum confirms anyone as town. Could you explain that last point please.

So, I'd prefer not explaining my reasons in more detail, but I'm quite convinced that Gollum, Zdenek, and Farside contains 2-3 scum, and that lynching them will give us the rest of the scumteam, regardless of their flip.

Assuming there are two scum in the group, then there are three scenarios.Who is the scum team in each case? It would be better if you would explain your reasons, but if you are still unwilling to do that, at least give us the names.

MrTrow's replacing out post was unhelpful. However, I mostly agree with pacman, that just doing something like this is fairly townie, so

Unvote

I continue to find Nocmen scummy. In addition to the things I have already pointed out, here he expresses concern about Calcifer:

Calcifer's post 132: A list of who he thinks is scum and town, with out reasoning behind much of that. But for a lot of it, I'm concerned due to the fact that many of them seem as repeats of the popular opinion at the time.

However despite these concerns he is willing to lynch me today for what appears to be no reason.

I'm willing to support a zdenek lynch today too.

Vote Nocmen

[Zdenek]

Flinter, pappum's rat, show me the quote where Thor gives a reason for finding me suspicious.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, you are completely right. Thor followed Calcifers read in stead of giving reasons.

It does seem like a technicality though, seen that you strawmanned Nocmen in quite an obvious way, followed by an OMGUS like vote. I find it quite telling that you don't reply to those accusations, but need to point out that "Thor never had reasons". Thor only had a preference for lynching you.

There is no strawman here, I said that he appears to be voting me for no reason, which as far as I can tell is correct. Also, it is not OMGUS, since I've expressed suspicion of him before.

[Zdenek]

On Calcifer's town case for Nocmen:

I personally do not think that he is scum for commenting about the number of pages or the length of time that he took to get through them, so as far as I am concerned, this part of the argument is moot. Also, while failing to read-through might be a scum-tell (albeit not a great one) I do not think that catching up in a thread is a town-tell.

The next point about his scum reads attacking Nocmen I don't think is a reasonable argument that he is scum, since I know that he wrong about one of his scum reads: me.

Regarding my "blatant lie about Nocmen:" I think that people are misrepresenting my point against Nocmen. It wasn't that Nocmen voted me for no reason. It was that after expressing suspicion of Calcifer he was willing to vote for me, following Thor, who was voting me solely following Calcifer.

I also don't think that Nocmen's reason for being suspicious of me in the first place that I "put a bit too much in [my] post where

voted Bub" is a scum-tell. I tried to make the best argument I could at the time, because votes for serious reasons apply real pressure on people.

I do not find Calcifer's argument to be a convincing argument for Nocmen being town.

I also disagree with some of the points in Calcifer's town case on Bub; however, I am currently leaning town on Bub because of how he responded to the pressure over his vote on Pine, so I don't feel the need to argue with him over this.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek's, on the other hand, screamed "SCUM!"

Stop poisoning the well.

Thor can be town for the time being.

Orrr, you could question him, scumhunt and actually find out if he really is town.

Calcifer is currently town.

You should hold yourself to the same standard as you are holding others.

Unless I recognise your name on here (you people know who you are), I'd like to know what experience you have with mafia?

My wiki page is almost up to date.

"I agree with points A, B, and C that Calc brought up while arguing that Nocment was town, but I still think nocmen is scum."

First of all, I did not say that I agreed with Calcifer. I think that Calcifer's point the number of pages Nomen had to read and that time it took him to do so is irrelevant, and that his town-tells, catching up in a thread, and being attacked by his scum reads, are weak, but the line,

The next point about his scum reads attacking Nocmen I don't think is a reasonable argument that he is scum, since I know that he wrong about one of his scum reads: me.

Should have read: The next point about his scum reads attacking Nocmen I don't think is a reasonable argument that he is town, since I know that he wrong about one of his scum reads: me.

Zdenek, why

do you think noc is scum if you don't think it's for any of those reasons?

Read my posts. I've explained already.

My town read on Bub is vanishing.

Just reason 1 would have sufficed. Or reason 3. But 5 reasons for such a simple accusation is simply overdone. It isn’t that I have a problem with the defensiveness per se, but this answer doesn’t feel like a natural response.

This makes me worry a bit about farside. The someone is Twistedspoon, and regardless whether the reasons for calling him town are sound, it is the reaction by farside that bothers me.

These two posts feel like you are reaching for a reason to attack people, and the second one sure was: Flinter even had to apologize for it.

I think the case Calcifer presented against Gollum is reasonable, and that lynch is better than mine, so considering how close the deadline is:

Unvote
Vote Gollum

unvote
vote:zdenek
because misquoting people is always scummy. If you didn't need to manipulate people's feelings towards other you wouldn't have to chop up quotes for a desired effect. That is enough reason for me.

Let's go through this again. I think Nocmen is scummy for being suspicious of Calcifer, and then voting me following Thor who was just following Calcifer. Now, how did I chop up Nocmen's quote to achieve a desired effect.

As far as I can tell, the reasons that people are voting me, are the following:

1. Creating an apparent contradiction by thinking that CJ's post at the start of the game shouldn't be treated as a scum-tell, and then voting Acronach. It's not a contradiction because I don't have to find everything coming from a slot scummy, to think that the slot could be scum.

2. Creating an apparent contraction by not liking Bub's vote on Acronach. It's not a contradiction because be even if I think that someone could be scum, it doesn't mean that I could be wrong, and scum could be getting on the wagon. I'd like to point out here that Calcifer was also voting Arconach early in the game, and then proceeded to think that there was scum on the wagon, so their criticism of me for doing the same is hypocritical.

3. Wagon analysis - it's easily manipulated and it fails if Calcifer is wrong about his town reads.

4.The "blatant lie" about Nocmen - I've recently explained why it wasn't a lie. It's misrepresentation of my argument.

5. Quoting this:

I agree with Thor, and I'm willing to support a zdenek lynch today too.

as

I'm willing to support a zdenek lynch today too.

when I pointed out the cognitive dissonance of Nocmen being suspicious of Calcifer, and then voting me for no reason. Considering that Thor was voting me following Calcifer, I don't think that I altered the meaning of his quote in the least.

[Zdenek]

In response to Farside's 442 (it's the morning and it's all I have time to do):

What about Bud's vote/reasoning was stupid when others brought it up and voted for that same reason?

After Calcifer voted for Bub, Acronach explained why he wasn't voting for pacman. Bub didn't consider this response at all, but just reiterated the question.

What? First it's stupid reason then its better then random.........?

"Much better than random" is how Bub described his reasons for voting Acronach.

Why did you vote for Bud over Cecily?

At the time Cecily's stubbornness made me feel that she could be town.

And so did Pine. Point?

Where did Pine use Cecily's excuse for not being active early?

Rinse, repeat and reuse. I saw this same point being used against Cecily and used against ctorj.

If two people are guilty of doing the same scummy thing, should we ignore it the second time?

In regard to Zomb

The number of reads someone possesses has little to do with whether or not they are misunderstandings.

Pot meet kettle

This is terrible. Cecily's play has been lazy. She is making excuses for her current scummy play, where she fails to takes any stances, and for her future scummy play when she gets on a wagon, while just agreeing with what other people say. Her excuse of not having time is awful.

All you've seen that is worthy of you commenting on it is that hydras can be "obnoxious" and something that happened during confirmation?

Well, I agree that Gollum has been scummy, but he voted Acronach early, and has left his vote there and he also hasn't been active in almost a week, so I don't see how VCA confirms him as scum or how him flipping scum confirms anyone as town. Could you explain that last point please.

You completely misrepresented my first point. I was giving an example of how Zombeh was misinterpreting one of Jakalope's posts in order to attack him:

I think Zombeh looks bad in 248 because he seems to misinterpret some things that people are saying in order to make certain points.

Sorry, if you look at my other games, I rarely like posting in the first couple pages, I find most reads you gain from the first couple pages are usually just misunderstandings, so I don't have many reads early in the game.

You don't have to have many reads to post early in the game. Lame excuse.

The number of reads someone possesses has little to do with whether or not they are misunderstandings.

I looked and before this post I barely see a mention of Gollum. Now all the sudden oh I agree he's scummy, but I have no reason for it.

Vote Nocmen

I'm going to assume that you mean Nocmen, and not Gollum, since you quoted my vote for Nocmen just below this, and saying that I hadn't mentioned Nocmen before I voted him is false: I'd commented about his seconding the question to Twistedspoon after TS had explained it, his defensive reaction to being accused of piggybacking Arch, his weak attacks on Arch, Flinter and Ion, and the cognitive dissonance in his being suspicious of Calcifer and willing to vote for me in agreement with Thor.

In case you did mean Gollum, I explained why my vote is there when I voted.

What happened with Bud, Gollum or anyone else you found scummy? Why the switch now?

At that time, I felt that Bub's response to the pressure he was under for his Pine vote were good, and I wasn't interested in pushing a lurker-lynch on Gollum who hadn't posted in about 6 days at that time.

[Zdenek]

No that was the end of his reason. His main reason was he Acro not voting pacman who Acro stated was a 3rd party role.

What are you talking about? Let's review:

This was Bub said about the reasons for his vote on Arco:

They were much better than a random vote

I commented

Also, his reasons for voting Acronach were "much better than random" but now he's going with pressuring a lurker as soon as that wagon starts to fall apart.

What? First it's stupid reason then its better then random.........?

As far as I can tell, your post indicates that you thought that I thought that Bub's reasons were better than random. i pointed out that this is not the case:

"Much better than random" is how Bub described his reasons for voting Acronach.

Your response to that, quoted above, makes no sense.

zd: my comment was that you found Gollum scummy without a reason.

There is a lengthy case against him laid out by Calcifer, and I think it is reasonable. Considering that the many of the people on my wagon are voting for no reason, I dislike that you are holding me to higher standards than them.

So why do you think Gollum is scummy?

Here is what I don't like about Gollum:

Their attack on Bub:

Ad Bubskins, how did you know CJ was not going to play?

was terrible. It misrepresented the events at the start of the game, and if they sctually believed it, I think they would have voted.

That is immediately followed up with hypocrisy:

We do not like Arc. His immediate pressure push of pacmans hider claim without a vote.

I think this attack on Acronach was weak:

ya, mostly site conformity

since i'm used to another mafia site.

We've heard this one from scum before....

I do not think that such a claim is more likely to come from scum or town.

The fact that they were inactive for almost a week, doesn't help my feelings about the slot.

Their recent posts don't make me feel better or worse about the slot. They do raise a good point that an Acro scum flip would make Calcifer look bad.

All in all, I would prefer a Nocmen lynch, but since that is not getting anywhere and it's close to the deadline, so I've put my vote somewhere else.

As for the Zdenek case, that one seems certain on scum. His manipulation was obvious, and his defence went to a "clever" technicality.

Explain this.

That's L-1, so I'd like to hear a claim out of Zdenek before anyone hammers.

I will claim when we get the 24 hour warning before the deadline or when there is a willing hammer.

[Zdenek]

I'm pretty sure that some people misunderstood the rules. There is extra time that is added on after the base time, we aren't told how much it will be, but we get a 24 warning before the day ends:

5.1 Each day's length is the sum of the base-time and the extra-time.
5.2 The base-time is [n/2]+2 days, where n is the number of living players.
5.3 The extra-time is the sum of three random numbers, each ranging from 0 to 3. You will not be told how much the extra is.
5.4 I will tell you the exact deadline 24 hours before the deadline hits

[Zdenek]

@Calcifer - as long as you're hre; what were all the awesome reads we'd get if Zdenek flipped town? Because he just flipped town.

Still waiting . . .

Flinter builds a pretty decent case against Zdenek, and votes him.

No, she didn't. She built a hypocritical case against me considering that she did exactly what she accused me of doing, and the difference is that when she cut up my quote she actually changed my point, whereas, I did not change the meaning of Nocmen's post.

Unvote

What do you mean that Calc won't survive past midgame?

Nonsense scum-slip.

Your comment was made before there was a case.

No it wasn't. I voted Gollum in post 441, and Calcifer laid out a case on him him in in a few posts starting at 425.

After flinter's Farside vote, I think stringing her up would be fantastic.

Vote Nocmen

Because he's still my favourite, but I'd also be okay with lynching Bub.

I prefer Bub to Cecily because of the possibility that the Cecily wagon formed partly to protect Bub.

[Zdenek]

I prefer Bub to Cecily because of the possibility that the Cecily wagon formed partly to protect Bub.

That's funny because I see it the other way around.

How come? The Cecily wagon formed after the Bub wagon.

Magister is a good alternative to Gollum. Thorscum? Please. He's (by far) the biggest town read in the game. I'd expect Zd and Caboose to flip as gambitting scum before Thor right now.

Why do you think that Thor is town?

I'm not interested in lynching either Thor or Magister Ludi today.

I think Calcifer's case on Cecily is reasoable.

[Zdenek]

Well, I think that Nocmen is scum.

And for the record, the part of the case that I think is reasonable is the part of it that is actually a case and is meant to be reasonable.

But poor Thor, now having to worry about his fate should Cecily flip scum.

[Zdenek]

Considering the time constraints,

Vote Cecily

Seriously