130.Mirror Mafia - Game Over

[Calcifer]

FFFFFFF--
Broken spoiler tag.

Mod:

change the 'a' to an 's', please.

Anyway. I'll try to give my thoughts on the game. I'm putting it off, admittedly, because right now, I'm not very coherent.

But I think I can't afford to do that, with deadline looming near. No, I need to get things settled, before we go into night. It might be too late by then.

[farside22]

I'm exhausted. I have one more page to go, which is in see briefly is about Gollum

Yeah, of course he's going to vote the largest rivaling wagon. Who else is he going to vote for, himself?
Since everyone is pretty much going into "end-of-the-day-hurry-up-and-get-a-lynch" mode, I'm wondering why Zdenek looks particularly scummy here.

You do realize that at the time of that quote it was before a wagon even started on Gollum or a case was even made?

Silavor's case for Scumhunter and his own recent posts have made me think I -might- be wrong about him. Gah. I hate it when I have a strong scumread that turns out to have some serious town evidence. Eating my words doesn't taste very good.

Other than the defense of SH, Silavor has been extremely scummy of late, and Furcolow's las couple of posts have struck me as scum trying to throw about as much confusion and chaos as possible.

UNVOTE: Scumhunter
VOTE: Furcolow

Who is Silavor and scumhunter?

These two things conflict. Gollum changes votes, sure, but the first implies that Acro was not worthy of being voted, still. The second implies that Acro IS still worthy of being voted. Heck

I don't see it.

Contradicts with #1, and doesn't mesh well with #2, either. Not to mention...
-Voting the popular wagon of the time, AGAIN (Zdenek, instead of Acro), with no foreshadowing other than POSSIBLY

Agreed


I didn't like the sudden switch either and with no reason expect to say he agreed his vote was useless after just getting through and saying he still found Arco suspicious.

sleeepppppppp time. I swear first thing in the morning I will be here to finish. Please don't spam the thread in the mean time.

[Caboose]

You do realize that at the time of that quote it was before a wagon even started on Gollum or a case was even made?

Yeah, you're right. But Zdenek still isn't scum.

[Gollum]

Deleted, correct version below. Tasky

[Gollum]

MOD: Please delete the above post. Thank you.

So much for me thinking the blue head was more reasonable.

Whereas before, most of the evidence against Gollum came from your redhead, now I've got this gem of a post.

Instead of giving me a fair shot, you'd rather discredit my opinions. Nice going. This is not an argument against my points, BTW, so there's nothing about your remarks that helps to drive your point of why you believe I'm scum. I've seen you calling me scum throughout the pages I've read but never detailed it, and were even asked by others why. (pages 1-12)

As for Pine: Yes, I have elaborated. See my Pine case.

Yes, PINE. That was the 4th person I made a connection with. Thanks for reminding me. I wouldn't fault him too much if you flip mafia, but I'll definitely keep him in mind.

(Also, lol, Gollum's OMGUS'ing!)

Someone targets me with insufficient reasoning and I have to cower down by not addressing them? This is nearly a petty way to escape the validity of my comments. I'm not saying you're scum for voting me. I'm saying I see you as scum with your townreads Bubs & Pine, as well as Acro/CJ who Nero told me may have been chainsaw defended by you. I have all 4 of you connected so you all are my thoughts for the mafia at the moment.

Why jump to immediately call him scum?

You should remember that was what I called him in the old game: Cabooscum. I used the name for nostalgia's sake, not an accusation. (Isn't that game the primary reason we have Normal Guidelines, now? )

I forgot. I remember I didn't want to eliminate your lyncher claim but that was one of my first large normal games. But, it just seemed like you called him Caboo

scum

after he pointed out how Pine's lacking content was not warranting of your townread over him. And I still don't think you justified that townread either.
(Yeah, that was a wild experience....

I'm Batmaaaaaan.

)

You're calling yourself scum here, lol. Which player did you mean to put down in this spot?

Completely missing Caboose's point. Caboose was summarizing a post by Furcolow.

Woops I'll recheck.

@Mastin: Nacho has been communicating with you, but not in thread for the early parts of this game?

Not really. Nacho's apparently been busy. His last post before today was a week ago. I've largely been going solo, and being forced to rely on my own reads and what little Nacho posted. Nacho can clarify this if he wishes to.

You two have a QT or what? It just looks like rather than posting himself, Nacho wants YOU BOTH to have combined opinions to really drive your cases across.

As usual, I'm not giving out townreads unless asked.

Gollum, we're lynching ya. (Oh, right.

Vote: Gollum

. To make it official.) Give those thoughts to stand a chance at convincing us otherwise.

I'll give out townreads, but it's not a deal I do only when pressured. I don't volunteer my townreads because, as the old saying goes, scum can take those thoughts into consideration when deciding who's best to kill every night. And of course I'm being asked by you to come out with my lists.

I have this cheap prob-but-not-def-town reading of players who, like myself, have been prodded twice. This goes to Cecily and Pine (please don't use this for your townread reasoning). I usually get VT reads out of players like those, because scum would likely try their best not to receive official prods - due to reading/lurking but not contributing, so they'd be aware of when it's time to post. Furc actually isn't posting like he did in the Wrestlemania game, and his thoroughness compliments what I view as a natural flow in his commentary/mindset. I have this belief that Ludi is town because, if he's scum, he just brought a lot of attention to power roles (ie town investigators) with not only his quiz, but also his persistence. My last townread is Thor, but it's admittedly more of a vibe I get than anything related to what he posts about.

I see deadline is 20 hours away... why did Nero let me go away for this long And, of course, no one I think is scum has a wagon on them. Zden looks like town despite voting me to save his skin. Bubs vote on Zden also makes me feel this way.

Unvote and Vote: Bubs

Since I essentially left my job yesterday, I should be around to read pages 13-whatever tomorrow.

[Gollum]

@mod please get me a replacement. i will keep posting untill a replacement is found, so take your time, but i think that my role could be of more use if someone who was more motivated to post in this game had it.

Yo:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p2968945

He shared the role.

[Zdenek]

In response to Farside's 442 (it's the morning and it's all I have time to do):

What about Bud's vote/reasoning was stupid when others brought it up and voted for that same reason?

After Calcifer voted for Bub, Acronach explained why he wasn't voting for pacman. Bub didn't consider this response at all, but just reiterated the question.

What? First it's stupid reason then its better then random.........?

"Much better than random" is how Bub described his reasons for voting Acronach.

Why did you vote for Bud over Cecily?

At the time Cecily's stubbornness made me feel that she could be town.

And so did Pine. Point?

Where did Pine use Cecily's excuse for not being active early?

Rinse, repeat and reuse. I saw this same point being used against Cecily and used against ctorj.

If two people are guilty of doing the same scummy thing, should we ignore it the second time?

In regard to Zomb

The number of reads someone possesses has little to do with whether or not they are misunderstandings.

Pot meet kettle

This is terrible. Cecily's play has been lazy. She is making excuses for her current scummy play, where she fails to takes any stances, and for her future scummy play when she gets on a wagon, while just agreeing with what other people say. Her excuse of not having time is awful.

All you've seen that is worthy of you commenting on it is that hydras can be "obnoxious" and something that happened during confirmation?

Well, I agree that Gollum has been scummy, but he voted Acronach early, and has left his vote there and he also hasn't been active in almost a week, so I don't see how VCA confirms him as scum or how him flipping scum confirms anyone as town. Could you explain that last point please.

You completely misrepresented my first point. I was giving an example of how Zombeh was misinterpreting one of Jakalope's posts in order to attack him:

I think Zombeh looks bad in 248 because he seems to misinterpret some things that people are saying in order to make certain points.

Sorry, if you look at my other games, I rarely like posting in the first couple pages, I find most reads you gain from the first couple pages are usually just misunderstandings, so I don't have many reads early in the game.

You don't have to have many reads to post early in the game. Lame excuse.

The number of reads someone possesses has little to do with whether or not they are misunderstandings.

I looked and before this post I barely see a mention of Gollum. Now all the sudden oh I agree he's scummy, but I have no reason for it.

Vote Nocmen

I'm going to assume that you mean Nocmen, and not Gollum, since you quoted my vote for Nocmen just below this, and saying that I hadn't mentioned Nocmen before I voted him is false: I'd commented about his seconding the question to Twistedspoon after TS had explained it, his defensive reaction to being accused of piggybacking Arch, his weak attacks on Arch, Flinter and Ion, and the cognitive dissonance in his being suspicious of Calcifer and willing to vote for me in agreement with Thor.

In case you did mean Gollum, I explained why my vote is there when I voted.

What happened with Bud, Gollum or anyone else you found scummy? Why the switch now?

At that time, I felt that Bub's response to the pressure he was under for his Pine vote were good, and I wasn't interested in pushing a lurker-lynch on Gollum who hadn't posted in about 6 days at that time.

[Tasky]

VOTECOUNT 1.11

Zdenek (8/11): flinter, pappums rat, Thor665, Bunnylover, Bub Bidderskins, Gollum, Cecily, Nocmen
Gollum (4/11): evilpacman18, Furcolow, Zdenek, Calcifer
Cecily (2/11): Twistedspoon, Caboose
Nocmen (1/11): farside22
Twistedspoon (1/11): Haylen
Bub Bidderskins (1/11): Magister Ludi
Ctorj49 (1/11): Acronach
Calcifer (1/11): Ion67
Furcolow (1/11): Pine


Not Voting (1): Ctorj49

With 21 alive it takes 11 to lynch.

Base-Time ends 29.04.2011, 22:00 CET

__

Prodding

Ion67

,

Bunnylover

, and

Twistedspoon

. Still looking for an

Acronach

replacement

[Twistedspoon]

prodded; will post soon

[Nocmen]

Mod:

I changed my vote in 436.

[farside22]

@farside: So the scumteam are comprised of newcomers, no pros?

I don't know. Usually as a mod it's random picks on who gets a scum spot and who gets town.
What is the point of the question?

You two have a QT or what? It just looks like rather than posting himself, Nacho wants YOU BOTH to have combined opinions to really drive your cases across.

What does it matter if Nacho comes in or Mastin?

"Much better than random" is how Bub described his reasons for voting Acronach.

No that was the end of his reason. His main reason was he Acro not voting pacman who Acro stated was a 3rd party role.

If two people are guilty of doing the same scummy thing, should we ignore it the second time?

My point is that it feels like a go to excuse for finding someone scummy.

zd: my comment was that you found Gollum scummy without a reason.

The quote with your vote you should read my comment below, those are the 2 that go together.

So why do you think Gollum is scummy?


If you put a gun to my head to pick between Zd and Gollum. I would pick Gollum, just based on the wagon on ZD that came out of nowhere and at least one person on there I find the scummiest.
I also don't like Gollum's vote on ZD, he has since then switched to Bud. I don't get his scum read on Cal either. Everything I read from Cal is pure scum hunting. He's doing more analysising then anyone else in the game and it reads as someone who is hell bent on making all his cases and points.

I still like my vote on Nocmen. He's sliding by so horriblely and seeing people ignore him really gets to me.

[Ion67]

No time to post now, class soon. Will post in a few hours

[Tasky]

Mod:

I changed my vote in 436.

fixed.

[Thor665]

I'd like to reaffirm that I'd be really happy with a Zdenek lynch.

Ion and TS look pretty sketchy for their last minute mumblings as they still squat on dead wagons that have been dead a long time. We're lynching Zdenek or Gollum today - didn't you guys get that memo like two days ago?

[Thor665]

Hell, actually I'm slightly pro the Gollum lynch just for how he sidelined to Bub.
I'll be around and available to help with either lynch, but certain lackwits need to get their votes in play for something to happen here.

[Bunnylover]

got prodded.
Sorry, these wall of texts are making it hard for me to focus.

[Thor665]

^Still a more useful player than most of you due to location of vote.

[pappums rat]

V/LA until Sunday

[pappums rat]

*And just FTR I still think Zdenek is the best lynch.

[Twistedspoon]

VOTE: Zdenek

will elaborate shortly, but this is the best lynch

[flinter]

Sorry, again, don't really have the time for a long post. And I'm not really in the mood.

As for Gollum-Zdenek, I think I prefer Zdenek. The core of the way too long case seemed to be that Gollum keeps his vote too long in one (useless) spot, which I agree is a good scumtell. The other points weren't as great, but with that amount of text there have to be some good things there too. As for the Zdenek case, that one seems certain on scum. His manipulation was obvious, and his defence went to a "clever" technicality.

Calcifer, please stop making such enormous laps of text. I really have to resort to skimming if the thread is growing like this, which means that my grasp on the game is becoming worse and worse.

[Pine]

Hrm.

Gollum's last few posts have me doubting the wagon on them, and enough people have told me that Furc is Town to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

UNVOTE: FurcUNVOTE:
VOTE: Zdenek

We're running out of time, and this is the best wagon that's likely to happen in that time frame. I'm not as confident of a Zd lynch as some of the rest of you, but at least a flip will let us analyze the motives of the people who were pushing his wagon the hardest.

That's L-1, so I'd like to hear a claim out of Zdenek before anyone hammers.

[Zdenek]

No that was the end of his reason. His main reason was he Acro not voting pacman who Acro stated was a 3rd party role.

What are you talking about? Let's review:

This was Bub said about the reasons for his vote on Arco:

They were much better than a random vote

I commented

Also, his reasons for voting Acronach were "much better than random" but now he's going with pressuring a lurker as soon as that wagon starts to fall apart.

What? First it's stupid reason then its better then random.........?

As far as I can tell, your post indicates that you thought that I thought that Bub's reasons were better than random. i pointed out that this is not the case:

"Much better than random" is how Bub described his reasons for voting Acronach.

Your response to that, quoted above, makes no sense.

zd: my comment was that you found Gollum scummy without a reason.

There is a lengthy case against him laid out by Calcifer, and I think it is reasonable. Considering that the many of the people on my wagon are voting for no reason, I dislike that you are holding me to higher standards than them.

So why do you think Gollum is scummy?

Here is what I don't like about Gollum:

Their attack on Bub:

Ad Bubskins, how did you know CJ was not going to play?

was terrible. It misrepresented the events at the start of the game, and if they sctually believed it, I think they would have voted.

That is immediately followed up with hypocrisy:

We do not like Arc. His immediate pressure push of pacmans hider claim without a vote.

I think this attack on Acronach was weak:

ya, mostly site conformity

since i'm used to another mafia site.

We've heard this one from scum before....

I do not think that such a claim is more likely to come from scum or town.

The fact that they were inactive for almost a week, doesn't help my feelings about the slot.

Their recent posts don't make me feel better or worse about the slot. They do raise a good point that an Acro scum flip would make Calcifer look bad.

All in all, I would prefer a Nocmen lynch, but since that is not getting anywhere and it's close to the deadline, so I've put my vote somewhere else.

As for the Zdenek case, that one seems certain on scum. His manipulation was obvious, and his defence went to a "clever" technicality.

Explain this.

That's L-1, so I'd like to hear a claim out of Zdenek before anyone hammers.

I will claim when we get the 24 hour warning before the deadline or when there is a willing hammer.

[Pine]

Base-Time ends 29.04.2011, 22:00 CET[/b][/color]

There's like, an hour and a half. Claim, damn it. Quit stalling.

[Caboose]

Zdenek is a mason with me.

Now unvote and vote Gollum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gollum