Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance-Town Wins!!

[Archaist]

/confirm

[Archaist]

Vote: [Low Key]

For buddying with popsofctown.

[Archaist]

DeityKabuto's self vote is suspect, but this is a bit of a reach:

for throwing away the very sense of RVS, to apply pressure. Applying pressure to one's self is the most useless way of RVS because you are not applying pressure to anyone but yourself. Implying that he has no intention of finding scum because he knows them himself as their scumbuddy.

I agree that Parabollocks calling out of a possible pro-town gambit wasn't a great idea, but the chances of anyone, town or scum, actually continuing on that wagon with the information at that time was pretty much zero anyway.

his vote reason is bogus. He believes DK is using a gambit, without DK confirming it

Weren't you just voting for DK yourself, without waiting for DK to post and explain his self vote?

But, now that DeityKabuto has had a chance to post:

It does not imply that, which is mainly the bias of your post. I never said that I wasn't going to scum hunt, or anything of that sort, so please, get off my D**K.

So instead of explaining an action of yours that has become the main focus at this point, you decide to ignore it completely and curse at someone, then FOS them to avoid looking like an OMGUS vote. Not what I would expect from a pro-town player. It seems like you weren't prepared for your self vote to draw so much attention.

Unvote:
Vote: DeityKabuto

Even though Parab has dropped enough scum tells and logic-fail to choke a moose, he also dropped a significant town tell in my eyes. I think that unless the scum team is Parab/DK/Quaroath, Parab is prob-town here. I do disagree with his vote on Spadille however -- I think Parab is just trying too hard with that.

Could you please elaborate on which tells you think are scum or town? It's also a bit early to have a scum team in mind, especially when one of them, (Quaroath) hasn't posted

at all

. Where are you getting that Quaroath might be scum, was your random vote on him not so random?

FOS: [LowKey]

[Archaist]

I don't see how he could make that post if he had a scum QT. The only people that had not confirmed by the time the QT's would of been closed by the Mod are: DK and Quaroath.

I have no reason to think that DK and/or Quaroath are scum but the only way that Parab wouldn't of received help in the scum QT to avoid that post is if those were his two scum partners.

I don't think speculation on the quick topic is a valid line of thought. Even if all the people you mention were scum, they wouldn't have necessarily discussed anything that would help Parab avoid the post you mentioned. Also, not confirming or coming in late is not an indicator of whether or not an individual was privy to a quick topic. I think I can see where you're coming from, but the reasoning is sketchy at best.

I will agree with you however that the whole Parabollocks vs Spadille argument is looking more like town vs town lately.

Not-voting is really Anti-town, dontchuthink?

Not necessarily. Once the RVS is past, votes should be backed by some measure of reason. If a player doesn't have good reasons to suspect someone, then forcing a vote based on little or no reason is more scummy than not voting at all.

2. Archaist, as I said, you were one of the last on my bandwagon, unlike the rest who are debating on it, you've only made one post and provided not much "Strong evidence.

You're making the mistake of looking at

when

I voted you rather than

why

. The reason I was the last one to vote you was because I thought it prudent to wait for you to post and explain yourself. You failed to do so, therefore I voted you afterwords, and with my reasons clearly explained.

But then again, I may have just caught all 3-4 scum,

Do you mean all the players who voted for you? "Everyone on my wagon is scum!" is nothing but OMGUS, as others have pointed out.

[Archaist]

1.He was the last one on his wagon. It's a better reason than I usually thought at the beginning, because of the not so much strong evidence part

I don't get how not having strong evidence, on page 3, is a scum tell. Are you saying everyone else who voted someone so far has a strong evidence for their case? Early votes will naturally have less to go on, however, seeing how DK has been reacting I've been getting more and more confident in my vote.

Normally,

a townie would remain "cool" and not be that offended

about their attackers, play it casually,

yet all of you whiners are over-reacting, it's just a game. You guys and your over reacting is a scum tell.

Especially, Spadile.

Your posts are more emotional

, and your words are partially in a twisted logic, whereas you know that some of the stuff I say is logical, yet you still counter-attack in a partially logical way.

I never said that I wasn't going to scum hunt, or anything of that sort, so please, get off my D**K.

You agree? Form your OWN opinion, nub.

You just fucking ignored my logic

[Archaist]

SnakePlissken

: Neutral. So far has posted nothing of substance. He was clearly here when stuff was happening, as shown by his #115 and #117, but he had nothing to say. He's V/LA now, but when he comes back he needs to post something big.

popsofctown

: Slightly leaning town. Decent reasons for voting in #56, and brings up some good points in #93. I disagree with this one however:

PB has started dropping some towntells. unvote

Could you please be more specific?

He's not acting very survivalist at all.

I get a strong town gut read from his description of mindsets. He's getting into the heads of his attackers to divine their true intentions rather than focussing on rendering the wagon baseless by disproving its basis. That's not what OMGUS means. And OMGUS doesn't mean you don't have any bias anymore than being brave means you've never known fear. A good townie tries to minimize their biases and look at the motivations of the players attacking him.

And DK isn't acting survivalist and minimizing his biases? Could you please clarify this for me?

zMuffinMan

: Leaning scum. Says he'll "do it later" both on #66 and #73. Then on #105 says he couldn't be bothered and gives his tiers without reasons attached. I also don't like his reasoning of keeping a scummy player around for the laughs, that seems like an attempt to defend DeityKabuto, while trying to seem not that intent on doing so. He gives a better post in #112, but:

I think DJ is scum based on his contributions so far (particularly the whole appeasing LK by voting even though it goes against his principles).

DJ hadn't made any contributions at this point, except for his post where he appeased LK. Yes, that was suspicious, but there's a lot going on and you single out one player who only made one post of substance. Other players have lurked too.

And you're dangerously close to getting into my third tier of reads, Spad, because your case on para was craptastic (and full of holes + misreps) and it looks to me like you're latching onto the DK wagon because he's an easy target. He's not the best player, that doesn't make him scum. In general, I think you're unnecessarily overly aggressive, but I'm not getting enough of a scum feeling from your posts to classify you as scum yet.

You have so much more here on Spad then DJ's one suspicious post, don't you think?

Quaroath/cjdrum

: Null, hasn't posted yet.

Spadille

: Leaning town. His huge back-and-forth with Parabollocks reads like town vs town to me. That went on a lot longer than necessary, but doesn't seem scummy. More recently, he brings up some good points against zMuffinMan. I agree that there's no reason to keep around a claimed goon, although no one has claimed that obviously.

RangeroftheNorth

: Null, hasn't posted yet.

[Low Key]

: Leaning town*. Certainly one of, if not the most active player. I don't like his reasoning for some things, like speculating on the quick topic (didn't see a reply to this yet btw) and saying a player who hasn't posted may be scum (Quaroath). His detailed reads and posts however look like genuine scum hunting to me. He is clearly eager to play, giving vote counts and everything, and you can tell he was excited even from his posts in the queue. *IGMEOU, bordering on being overly helpful and active, possible way for scum to get an early town read from other players.

DeityKabuto

: Leaning scum. Already gave my thoughts here. Most recently ignored my #132 where I show he's guilty of his own scum tells and ad hominem.

Snarky

: Neutral. #26, jokes about knowing who's scum and is overly excited/sarcastic in wagoning DK.

As I said, I failed to see DK's selfvote BEFORE voting him, but when I voted him, I WAS aware of his self-vote.

Sounds sketchy. Do you mean you realized it right after you posted? He does stick with his vote however (#127). I fail to see the justification behind the recent wagon on him, especially when players like DonJosh have posted less and with worse reasoning for their vote.

DonJosh

: Slightly leaning scum. First real post #72. Votes to appease [Low Key] even though doing do goes against his standards. That by itself however isn't enough to have a vote worthy case against him, as zMuffinMan seems to.

Parabollocks

: Leaning town. Like I said before, his huge back-and-forth with Spadille reads like town vs town to me. Parabollocks calling out of a possible pro-town gambit wasn't a great idea, but nothing too serious.

Snarky, i really need to see more from you then just "oh jee i'm going to fence-sit in every argument and refuse to provide legitimate content.

Where do you think Snarky was fence sitting? He seems pretty set on his DK vote.

So my two top suspects are DeityKabuto and zMuffinMan. BUT! Two players haven't posted at all, and two more hardly posted anything of substance. I don't agree with lynch-all-lurkers, and with

one third

of the player list not contributing this puts us in a spot.

I will do this, due to the above points:

Unvote
Vote: zMuffinMan

[Archaist]

Now then, defend yourself. Give me five good reasons for being on the fucking top two of your scum list. Also, don't narrow your suspects down to ZMuffinman and I, you don't even have LEGIT reasoning for voting ZMuffinMan.

Pretty sure I already gave my reasons, but I guess you really need me to spell it out for you. And why five? Did you have five reasons for voting me, and now Snarky? But I'll one up you and give six.
1. Your post #52 ignores all the discussion going on about your self vote. You don't explain yourself at all.
2. You FOS someone after cursing at them, leaving the vote on yourself.
3. You call me suspect for being the last to vote you, instead of actually looking at and responding to my reasons.
4. You call me suspect for not having "strong evidence" for a

page 3

vote.
5.

You are guilty of your own scum tells

, as I pointed out in my #132, and you did it again in this post. Look at the mods rule 18 that he reminded us about.

Your case is a complete, fake, nuff' said. I effing' control you.

6. You ignore the fact that zMuffinman's defense of you is only one of the

three reasons

I'm voting him, the other two being his non-commital posting and his voting for DJ based on one post when he has a better case on Spad.

I don't know if you're intentionally combative or what, but you're not going to get me caught up in some emotional shouting fest, lets try to be a bit more polite. You seem unduly upset that I labeled zMuffinman as possible scum, is he your buddy? You two are defending each other now. Why even mention SK?

Archaist, I am On The Top Two Of Your Scum List, Yet You Don't Have Good Reasoning

I think my list of reasons is quite sufficient. Your "case" against me consists mainly of your claim that my vote is not sufficiently backed up. I think this handily disproves that, and I challenge you to find any other player with five reasons for their vote. However, I will thank you for making me realize that while I have three reasons to vote zMuffinman, I have six to vote you.

Unvote
Vote: DeityKabuto

[Archaist]

Here are my thoughts on town directed vig kill:
Pros:
1. Possible, but unlikely, to kill two scum before N1.
2. Flip before D1 lynch could provide good info.

Cons:
1. No guarantee the vig will comply, even if they are town.
2. No need to use it D1 unless you think they will be night killed, which is low probability.

[Archaist]

Thought about it some more. The chance of the vig being night killed increases every night, so the earlier the ability is used the better. The trade off is that the earlier it's used, the less info there is to go on. I think we have enough info now to draw some conclusions from various player interactions, as [Low Key] pointed out. I vote yes to D1 vig kill. The only caveat is con#1 that I said above.

[Archaist]

First, a response to DeityKabuto's #242:

Who am I? I am a big-shot. I have about a decade (10-games) experience of playing Mafia

So you've been playing mafia since you were 6 years old? Your profile says you're 16. Lynch all liars?

Who I am 100% Sure Is Scum:
Who I suspect to be Scum:
Who I suspect to be Town:
Who I am 100% Sure Is Town:

You shouldn't be 100% sure of anyone if your vanilla townie claim is true.

Archaist - You only post every now and then, I am not certain that you are interested in this game which is why I'm not 100% sure of you being scum. But, when you do post, it's only to attack me, and it's like you haven't read everything so far, and you don't have much of a clue what's going on.

You must have missed my post where I gave my reads of every player, or else you wouldn't say I only attack you... oh wait, you commented on that post so you couldn't have missed it. You're my top suspect so of course you will be my main focus. I will examine others in this post however.

I think my list of reasons is quite sufficient. Your "case" against me consists mainly of your claim that my vote is not sufficiently backed up. I think this handily disproves that, and I challenge you to find any other player with five reasons for their vote. However, I will thank you for making me realize that while I have three reasons to vote zMuffinMan, I have six to vote you.

I beg to differ.

And... that's it? You seriously are trying to refute all 6 of my points by saying "I beg to differ?" This confirms my earlier statements that you don't bother to respond to the actual points against you. You request 5 points from me but you can't even measure up to your own standards.

What I want to see from Archaist: More content, more scumhunting, stop posting just to comment on my attacks. You aren't contributing to this game, you appear scummy enough.

What I want to see from DeityKabuto: actual responses to the points against you rather than dismissing them with "I beg to differ." Could you find other players who gave 5 reasons for their votes? Did you have 5 reasons for voting whenever you did so? Do you have dual standards? I can answer that last one for you. I will comment on others in this post, because there has been a lot going on.

Normally,

a townie would remain "cool" and not be that offended

about their attackers, play it casually,

yet all of you whiners are over-reacting

, it's just a game. You guys and your over reacting is a scum tell. Especially, Spadile.

Your posts are more emotional

You are about to make me lose my temper. You just fucking subbed in! You really don't have a clue about what is fucking going on in the game, I doubt you've read every shred of posts, so until then, you're dead to me. KTHX.

Once again!

You are guilty of your own scum tells

. This is so obviously dual standards I can't believe no one else has commented on it.

Right now, how I would go about the town being at odds is I would have Snarky lynched, and have the Vigilante either lynch (Toro, Spadile, or ZMuffinMan)

zMuffinMan? The guy who you so vigorously attacked me for because I labeled him possible scum? You're contradicting yourself, again.

-----------

Toro makes a point about zMuffinMan defending DK, a point I've made before. Re-reading however it's not zMuffinMan's defense of DK that stands out to me, it's DK's defense of zMuffinMan. DK seemed really upset that I said zMuffinMan could be scum, even though I gave three reasons DK only focused on one. DK also said he wants zMuffinMan to lead scumhunting, but then makes a distancing attempt by listing him as a vig target.

-----------

Ok I am having trouble understanding this post but what I can get from it is that you think scum could quick hammer someone while we're waiting for the vig on our top wagon.

Once our top wagon is at L-1 a notice should be posted that if anyone quickhammers they are auto-lynched tomorrow. There is no harm done as we get scum the next day and got our top wagon lynched anyway.

You have stated several times that "if the scum have the vig they won't follow our plan". Ok I have asked you several times now, but here is a rephrase:

Since we will then discover that the scum actually have the day-vig (which we didn't know before) how exactly is that harmful or bad for the town?

I didn't want to say this until the issue actually came up, since it could lead to WIFOM, but there seems to be enough confusion over it: If the vig does not take out the L-1 target, we learn more than what you suggest. This is all assuming a town vig agrees with the plan. If the scum have the vig, they wouldn't hesitate to use it if the L-1 target was a townie.

Therefore, if the vig doesn't act, we can assume that both the scum have the vig

and

the L-1 target is scum

, since scum wouldn't take out their team mate. Hopefully this will convince the vig, if they are a townie, that they should act today. Vig, if you are town, please realize going with this line of thought provides a lot more info.

-----------

I am tired of Spadile effing' V/LA'ing until Wensday to avoid suspicion

Attacking someone over V/LA is incredibly scummy. Give your fellow players the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this. Stuff comes up.

-----------

And, for the record, this is how I prefer people explain their cases, instead of just calling something scummy

Like how you did in your #105?

-----------

I didn't feel like I would have to explain how DK isn't being a survivalist.. He put himself in the spotlight from the getgo by selfvoting. He retained the spotlight by strutting when he was attacked, saying his selfvote was operating on some higher level of scumhunting no one else understands. (I agree with muffins, he has funny posts).

OK, I see your point, thanks for clarifying. I was thinking that his emotional ad hominem attacks and cursing at people was a desperate survival attempt to get people off his wagon.

-----------

I got a better idea. Vig vigges Toro, and if I'm right about Toro, you get off the DK wagon.

How's that sound?

Some of Toro's attacks are indeed a reach.

the fact he was reaching on DK for that supposed scumslip is textbook scum and almost makes me believe there is no doubt in my mind of him being scum

But is that one scumslip lynch/vig worthy compared to everything else that's been going on so far? zMuffinMan's confidence is somewhat inspiring however.

-----------

@[Low Key]: Your change of heart on DK was very sudden. From being to eager to vig/lynch/sing kumbaya to going after Toro and not even mentioning DK as part of your theoretical scum team. What was the main thing that caused this change? You agree with Snarky's meta analysis? I don't think your reasons in #401 are stronger than the case against DK. popsofctown gives a much more convincing argument in the recent #425.

[Archaist]

That's cause I'm a bawss. (anyone who gets the joke gets 5 gold stars)

"Like a Boss" music video by Lonely Island.

@[Low Key] Thanks for clarifying. Your position is looking a lot better to me now. zMuffinMan is looking less scummy to me than in my previous read, though I still can't figure out DK's position on him. Certainly a Toro vig/lynch would confirm a lot about zMuffinMan, and perhaps parabollocks too.

[Archaist]

Wow, nicely done. This confirms popsofctown as a townie. Based on this, I am actually willing to

Unvote
Vote: Toro

My case on DK stands, as with his scummy play I can't discount that his buddies may have voted him for easy town credit, but that's not where my vote needs to be right now.

[Archaist]

Sorry, wanted to get it in so the count was as up to date as possible.

[Archaist]

Also the lack of explanation as to why his vote "needs" to be on Toro

Because I realized a DK lynch wasn't going to happen anytime soon, and a Toro lynch would reveal a good bit of information about you, since you were willing to bet on him being scum. Parabollocks also seemed quite sure of himself when voting Toro.

I push the DK case because he looks so scummy to me I can't understand why he survived so long, unless everyone else thinks he's just a VI. I think you're reaching a bit with Snarky's reads on me. Calling someone neutral or slightly town doesn't mean much. It seems like you're mainly focusing on people who went after DK, since scum Snarky did the same. Going after the same person as a scum player, especially when there is good reason to, is not scummy.

My case on DK stands, as with his scummy play I can't discount that his buddies may have voted him for easy town credit

---------------

About chkflip:

His reaction is either scum trying way too hard to seem like a frustrated townie or he's genuinely a frustrated townie. Props for the acting if he is scum.

Agreed. Claiming he didn't read the PM, early VT claim, self vote to L-1, frustrated back and forth with LK that made him want to replace out. For the slot, besides DJ's scummy post, most of chkflip's posting does indeed seem more frustrated than scummy. I would like to see a player by player read list from him. Hammering before he posts real content doesn't seem right, though he's had plenty of opportunity.

I know, I know.

But he claimed VT

But I'm assuming you don't believe it, since your vote is still on him even though you say his self vote plays to his win condition.

[Archaist]

You won't listen to me while I'm alive, insist on one completely mundane line of text that lines me up with scum, and now you expect me to participate for you?

Nice try. L-2 or not, you're lynching me. And you're getting jack shit for it. And I'm trololol'ing all the way home.

Clearly not interested in participating no matter what. Actively anti-town townie is nearly as bad as scum. This negates his "playing to win condition" since he seems pleased the town will get nothing for this lynch. After this I don't think the town will be able to trust chkflip again anyway even if he isn't lying, but I think an elaborate ruse is just as likely. Either way, lets move on.

Unvote
Vote: chkflip

[Archaist]

Wow, I go to sleep and wake up to find several pages of role fishing. The only time the masons should claim is if one of them is run up to L-1, at which point they should name their buddies so if they are lynched we have confirmed townies. LK's supposed soft claiming, in light of his denial of actually being a mason, seems like an attempt to get the real masons to counter claim and out themselves. That's a terrible idea. If he really isn't a mason he's clearly trying to buddy with them.

He's also being far too secretive with his reads, saying he can't reveal such-and-such without permission. If you have actual information that could help the town, from actual content in the game, there's no reason to hold it back. LK, you've been on my town reads list, but recently you've been getting more sketchy. Less posting, more coherent thoughts, and less secrets please.

Unvote
FOS: [Low Key]

[Archaist]

^ Nice try, but we're not buddies. I'm happy to have someone defending me and all, but if it's going to implicate me in something I'm not a part of it does more harm than good.

[Archaist]

The Masons are (in the order I learned them): Spad, Snake, Arch

If you have actual information that could help the town,

from actual content in the game

, there's no reason to hold it back.

I'm very interested to know where you are getting this, especially since Snake has hardly posted at all. What "mason tells" are you seeing?

There is a mason that I consider to be the mastermind and who was most instrumental in getting us to kill Snarky but its just my title for them.

And by your answering after my post you seem to be trying to imply that I'm the "head mason," yet I had nothing to do with killing Snarky. You're "100% sure" of who the masons are, you imply that you know my role PM in #619 (wtf? hax?), and you stick to your scum list like it's law. Something fishy is going on here.

[Archaist]

popsofctown, if you think zMuffinMan should be lynched today, there's no reason to hold your vote waiting for cooperation, especially when he's still 3 votes away from lynch. Well, make that 2 now, since I agree with your plan and you're confirmed town.

Vote: zMuffinMan

[Archaist]

Btw, if muffin claims mason at L-1, no one counterclaim. Instead, if muffin claims mason, 1 person claim mason as well to verify this. Muffin has attacked and been attacked by too many people to be a likely mason, so a mason claim should be regarded as a guilty unless proven innocent thing.

Why not put him at L-1 to find this out? Not sure what you mean by cooperation. You think you need someone else to say they will hammer before you vote? Worried someone else voting him now will unvote before that happens?

[Archaist]

It means he can't get all his thoughts together at one time. Just look at page 33, he posts 7 times in a row. Most people don't even double post with much frequency.

[Archaist]

chkflip pulled the same stunt; self voting and saying he didn't care. You think it'll work for you since it did for him?

[Archaist]

Care to give any constructive criticism before you leave? I thought I built my case well, but I'm always looking to improve.

[Archaist]

I think the main problem is you haven't made a single case against someone that's actually scum.

This implies you know who is actually scum.

[Archaist]

Clearly the reason I didn't want chk hammered is so I could develop proper reads based on the Snarky flip.

No need for name calling just because we see things differently. The Snarky flip was quite a while ago. Do you have your proper reads yet? Don't tell me it was your #586 way back on page 24.

[Archaist]

It's a bluff. I can't believe someone would actually commit suicide by mod. If he really wanted out he would just stop posting and leave prods unanswered to force replacement.

[Archaist]

Actually, popsofctown was my guess for the night kill. Scum need to night kill whoever they can't lynch, and she would have been nearly impossible to lynch.

The 4 main scum possibilities in my mind: chkflip, cjdrum, Toro, and jilynne1991.
-cjdrum and Toro were strangely quiet during the push for zMuffinMan lynch.
-Don't know about chkflip with his rage posting when he was almost lynched, then saying he would follow zMuffinMan giving him double vote.
-Parabollocks was looking pretty pro-town to me, so jilynne1991 has that going for her.
-Therefore, my top two would be cjdrum and Toro. cjdrum was really opposed to D1 vig, and Toro acted weird when he was almost vigged and was very quiet during zMuffinMan wagon.

I had my vote on Toro before, so that's where it goes for now.

Vote: Toro

[Archaist]

Because you haven't really said enough to give me a read one way or the other, and looking at the final vote count on zMuffinMan the only two people who I'm not convinced are town are you and DK. DK is looking less likely as of late, as much as I hate to admit it.

[Archaist]

Though it's possible no scum were on the zMuffinMan wagon, several players were very quiet during it.

[Archaist]

Toro, see rules #3 and #9. You're not supposed to be posting after you're lynched.
I'll wait for the flip before thinking any further. I've seen too many scum say "bah, go town" or "I was just a VT" when lynched.

[Archaist]

Good game guys. I enjoyed this one more than the others I am currently in. The dead QT was a nice addition by the mod I hadn't seen before. Some things I need to do better next time are not tunnel so much (hard for me when DK was so scummy), and not believe noob claims (Jill) so easily.

@Spadille: I signed up for fire and ice with you.