It's Time to Euthanize the Doctor

[inHimshallibe]

I've seen enough Jailers lately to feel that we're getting somewhere with abandoning the most broken of roles, the unrestricted doctor.

Why the change?

A Doctor in the setup does not properly punish a power role for being outed/reward the Mafia for outing a power role.

Most everyone has a grasp over this concept, but I think it's high time we eliminate the doctor from our standard roles. Being able to protect indefinitely with impunity is so broken it's dumb. Find the Doctor before the other power roles destroy you becomes a huge part of a scumteam's game.

==========================================================================================

If you're not going to change the Doctor role in your setup, you need to:

A) Weaken the Town's power.
B) Properly equip the scum to combat the combo.

If you don't want to give the Mafia a blocker or some kind of investigative manipulation, how do you justify including protection and [insert power here] on the town side? The Jailer is one answer, but if you don't want to give Town a blocker of its own, the restricted Doctor role is a great alternative.

=========================================================================================

The variant I have played with a lot recently is such:

Angel

-

you may protect any player, but not on consecutive Nights unless you have successfully protected that player from a Kill on the Night before.

As in: the mod will inform you if you can protect Player X consecutively or not, and the only time this is possible is if the Angel protected someone that was also targeted for a kill. The Angel may protect themselves.

This creates a lot more information for the Town than may be necessary for a game, and can still lead to chain-protection so instead we can neuter it down a bit:

New Doc

-

You may protect any player, including yourself, but not the same player on consecutive Nights.

Anyhow, thoughts. Yes, it's a bit of a hard line, mainly to sell the copies, but I do think the Doctor is a root of most balancing evils.


EDIT: Forgot to address the self-protect part of the new role. This allows a bit more flexibility to the setup balancing act, and also creates some lovely WIFOM minigames at Night, which we all love. Well, maybe.

[Vi]

the most broken of roles, the unrestricted doctor.

Doctors are seriously not broken except in conjunction with other Town power.

With that said, I was surprised when I joined the site that Doctors were allowed to protect the same person indefinitely, as opposed to not being able to protect the same person twice consecutively (the "New Doc", though that role title is atrocious). Similarly, I was surprised that Doctors were not allowed to self-protect (though the reason why this is is kind of understandable). Either or both of these changes would be improvements.

The Angel being told if they stopped a kill is the sort of

really

overpowered Doctor you see on other sites.

Bottom line - lowering the rate of Doctor occurrences is a good thing IMO.

[The Fonz]

I floated the idea of an 'Expensive doc' who is only able to protect each player once. An anesthetist (delaying doc) might be a good alternative to a jailkeeper- instead of RBing delays the action for a night. Or a paramedic: can protect as many times as he wants, but his protections become ineffective once they have succeeded in stopping a kill.

Besides, Yos advocates using JK primarily as a roleblocker anyway.

[shaft.ed]

Doctors aren't broken
Variants are usually a good thing
JK's are more closely related to RB's than docs

[inHimshallibe]

the most broken of roles, the unrestricted doctor.

Doctors are seriously not broken except in conjunction with other Town power.

My main point, really.

The Angel being told if they stopped a kill is the sort of

really

overpowered Doctor you see on other sites.

Yep, it's all, yodawg I put a cop in your doc so you can cop while you doc.

Bottom line - lowering the rate of Doctor occurrences is a good thing IMO.

:support:

Re: Fonzie's roles - I like those variants.

Doctors aren't broken

A Doctor as the sole power role, or in conjunction with limited-shot roles, is OK, but I can't make these concessions up front or I'll never reach bestseller levels.

JK's are more closely related to RB's than docs

Fine by me. Let's just do away with the Doctor.

[Vi]

inHim, you're starting to sound like me with Cops... it's kind of creepy...

[The Fonz]

Protective roles in general are a good idea, just to stave off the 'Best player dies N1 every time' phenomenon.

My upcoming 70s Show Smalltown will feature a different kind of delaying doctor- one that keeps the player alive until sundown the following day. Allows targeted cops to claim their results, but not to get another.

Ed: Not that there's a cop in the game, but you know.

[Zachrulez]

You could always limit the shots of the power roles so that it's possible to use up investigative power/doc protects. It's amazing that I don't see more of this actually.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I agree that Full Doctors being able to just pile on a target indefinately can be a problem.

I also think Roleblockers being able to continually roleblock the same target is also not a good role design.

[Battousai]

@OP- Finally, someone who agrees with me

[ReaperCharlie]

Hmmm, that's funny... I actually used BOTH the

Expensive Doc

mentioned by The Fonz, AND the

New Doc

mentioned by OP (inHim) in my last game (

Metropolis: Revisited

). I thought it worked out pretty well, actually.

The idea was that there would be two docs (i.e. better coverage overall), but still limitations in how the docs could play their roles (and I didn't want there to be any Follow-the-Cop kinds of situations). In the mod notes, they were listed as

Paramedic [type A]

and Paramedic

[type B]

, but in both role PMs they were only listed as "Paramedic", for balance reasons.

The role PMs for the two roles are below, and the setup and full role PM list is here, for those interested.

Welcome to

Metropolis:

Revisited

, playername!

You are a

Paramedic

; aligned with the

Citizens

.

the Paramedics have been dispatched to the amusement park from Metropolis General Hospital. They are charged with assisting the injured and doing their best to ensure that nobody else will get hurt. However, they can't be everywhere at once, and so cannot prevent all violence within the park. They are a night EMT team that has been assigned to the park until sunrise, at which time the park will (presumably) be cleared and the remaining injured patrons evacuated.

Your role ability:
-

Protect:

You may choose to Protect someone each night, to attempt to save them from dying that night. You may not protect someone two nights in a row. If two or more killing actions target the player you chose to Protect, both you and the player will die. You may not self-protect.

You win when all threats to the

Citizens

are eliminated!

The game thread is here. Please /confirm in-thread that you've received your role PM.

Welcome to

Metropolis:

Revisited

, playername!

You are a

Paramedic

; aligned with the

Citizens

.

the Paramedics have been dispatched to the amusement park from Metropolis General Hospital. They are charged with assisting the injured and doing their best to ensure that nobody else will get hurt. However, they can't be everywhere at once, and so cannot prevent all violence within the park. They are a night EMT team that has been assigned to the park until sunrise, at which time the park will (presumably) be cleared and the remaining injured patrons evacuated.

Your role ability:
-

Protect:

You may choose to Protect someone each night, to attempt to save them from dying that night. You may not protect the same person twice in the game, so choose your targets wisely as the game progresses! The only exception to this rule is when self-protecting. You may self-protect an unlimited number of times.

You win when all threats to the

Citizens

are eliminated!

The game thread is here. Please /confirm in-thread that you've received your role PM.

Important to note:

Neither doc was informed of the existence of another doc in the setup, and if one of the docs had claimed (neither did, or at least didn't until the other was dead, IIRC) there was always the possibility of a counter-claim. I liked the complementary limitations of the two docs, but also wanted there to be a chance for them to screw over the other (or perhaps themselves, as well).

In conclusion:

I agree that vanilla Docs, as described on the wiki, can propose problems. I further agree that it is up to mods to start creating contingencies for Follow the Cop scenarios, or other PR-protection plans with un-outed docs.

[Gammagooey]

Personally I'd rather see more 1-shot strongmen than limitations on doctors but the New Doc isn't bad except the name. Impatient doc or sight-seeing doc would be better.

[Meransiel]

I like the Doc as he is. A lot.

[DarthYoshi]

[agree with gammagooey]

With one notation--I'm generally okay with giving scum PRs, but the maf RB is a horribly cliched role that really only serves its primary purpose (deterring follow-the-cop scenarios) if it is known that there is a maf RB in the setup (ie, an open or semi-open game). Otherwise, the maf RB is a horrific crapshoot of a role. Maf hitmen are much better able to counter town docs, just as maf ninjas are there to counter town trackers/watchers (edited for grammar).

Docs aren't broken, scum just need to be given a proper counter to them.

(goes back to writing papers so that he can graduate this weekend)

[Hrezs]

Important to note: Neither doc was informed of the existence of another doc in the setup, and if one of the docs had claimed (neither did, or at least didn't until the other was dead, IIRC) there was always the possibility of a counter-claim. I liked the complementary limitations of the two docs, but also wanted there to be a chance for them to screw over the other (or perhaps themselves, as well).

You listed 2 paramedics when giving the set-up

[The Fonz]

I think he called both of them paramedics, but the roles were different.

Another one i'm intrigued by is the Mad Scientist, who possesses Super Soldier serum. Injecting it makes the player unkillable and unblockable for one night, but they die at sunset the next die from its side effects.

[ReaperCharlie]

Important to note: Neither doc was informed of the existence of another doc in the setup, and if one of the docs had claimed (neither did, or at least didn't until the other was dead, IIRC) there was always the possibility of a counter-claim. I liked the complementary limitations of the two docs, but also wanted there to be a chance for them to screw over the other (or perhaps themselves, as well).

You listed 2 paramedics when giving the set-up

Oops. I meant neither doc was informed of the existence of

different kinds of docs

in the setup. My bad.

[ReaperCharlie]

I think he called both of them paramedics, but the roles were different.

Another one i'm intrigued by is the Mad Scientist, who possesses Super Soldier serum. Injecting it makes the player unkillable and unblockable for one night, but they die at sunset the next die from its side effects.

I don't like it. What'd the point be to save someone if you knew they'd die? It's not the same as JKing them, lol

Is the Mad Scientist town or scum aligned? It might work in multi-scum games as a scum role, but other than that, I don't see it as a good town role.

[The Fonz]

Because if they're a town power role and they've been outed, they're likely to die overnight, or at least get roleblocked. The Mad Scientist has the possibility of squeezing an extra day's life and/or an extra night action, at the cost of guaranteeing their death.

[Battousai]

I'd think players would use it as a delayed vig more than a doc.

[chesskid3]

i fucking hate doctorrs

[ReaperCharlie]

Because if they're a town power role and they've been outed, they're likely to die overnight, or at least get roleblocked. The Mad Scientist has the possibility of squeezing an extra day's life and/or an extra night action, at the cost of guaranteeing their death.

Well, maybe if it's a one-shot ability or something. Doing that

every

night would just be retarded. lol

I'd think players would use it as a delayed vig more than a doc.

Yeah. But who wants to protect someone that you'd want to kill? That opens a whole other can of worms regarding cross-kills and such, if it were to be used in a large (where it would have less overall impact on the game balance, which is where I'd expect to see it used).

So: It's an interesting role, no buts there. But I don't think it'd translate well to actual gameplay. Do you have an example of where/if it was ever used, Fonz?

[DrippingGoofball]

Goofball Angel:

Everynight, you will protect DGB and no other player. After you die, she's on her own.

[Faraday]

Doctors are fine in larger games with lots of kills flying around. Kind of boring role to play but they're not broken.

[Glass]

New Doc - You may protect any player, including yourself, but not the same player on consecutive Nights.

Why does this sound more powerful than the standard doc? S:
This will just lead to:
night: protect self/outed PR (if there is one)/obvtown
and switch back and forth between self and PR/obvtown, even if the scum know who the doctor is they only have a 50% chance of actually being able to kill it.