Ignores the claim from me about stopping the kill. Doesn't even say "BS" to it. Completely ignores the fact that I cleared Zepher when I had no reason to do so as scum. Completely ignores the fact that I had far more reason to gambit as town than I did as scum. Just blindly hops on, because he's afraid. He's afraid that if we prolong the day, people will realize I'm town and will instead try to lynch HIM.
Zepher, I see you reading this game...
Vote so we can end the day with a werewolf rope.
Buddies up to Zepher, tries to get him to end the day less than 24 hours after it dawned, tries to get Zepher to ignore the fact that there was a missed kill last night, tries to get Zepher to ignore the fact that I claimed responsibility for it, via me doctoring Zepher.
Such as...
Who the scum are, of course. Even IF I were scum, the town should want to have as much conversation as possible to find my buddies. (Hence, why I'd hammer as scum--to stop that from happening.) Such as how there's a missing kill, and what it means. Such as how I claimed to have protected Zepher and believe that's why the kill is missing. Such as the fact that the wagon on me formed too fast to not have one--if not both--the wolves on it.
...Yeah. The better question would be what we SHOULDN'T discuss this game, and town-ConSpiracy would've seen this.
ConSpiracy is in a panic, because he's worried that if we don't end the day soon with a Mastin lynch, we'll end the day with a ConSpiracy lynch instead--and that's the sort of panic you only see from caught scum. Simply put, he knows he's screwed and is trying to desperately get rid of me right now.
See, this is why ConSpiracy is a wolf. If he were town, he would realize that there's a lot we need to discuss. If he were town, he would've realized that a longer-than-24-hour day would be pro-town, since we'd find the wolves better.
Since he's not, since he's a wolf, he doesn't understand why I'm not dead, yet.
Although cc'ing the cop was a stupid thing to do, and more likely to have come from scum hoping to force a 1v1, and buy a day, I actually believe mastin might make that kind of play. Although I stand by inevitable first conclusion I drew (and no doubt other did), that the one that cc's the cop is scum.
BFHoS: Mastin
So lets discuss.
Since you believe Singer is the last mafiate, which actually seems fairly likely, and ConSpiracy and Reck are the werewolves, which one would you rather see lynched?
ConSpiracy, where my vote is. If we lynch the last mafia, tomorrow will be wolf-lylo, and we will have no additional leads other than exactly what we have right now.
If we lynch a wolf today, tomorrow will be 4-1-1, assuming no crosskills, killing the same people, or prevented kills. A very favorable position, where we can pretty much choose who to eliminate.
The only thing which is concerning is if we don't lynch mafia OR a wolf today. Worst case scenario is that there's no crosskills, they don't kill the same person, and nothing stops a kill, leaving tomorrow as 3-2-1. HOWEVER, I'm pretty sure the mafia would side with the town and would want to see a wolf lynched, putting it at 3-1-1 going into night (since if we mislynch twice when aiming for a wolf, we pretty much woulda lost no matter what ). WORST case scenario is that SOMEHOW, the wolf and mafia know who each other are and magically coordinate kills so it ends up 1-1-1. I find it far more likely that one of them--if not both--will crosskill, leaving 2-1 as our lylo.
If I did the math correctly, anyway.
Basically: I'm pretty sure we need a wolf-lynch today. I'm not it, obviously. And if we somehow miss, the scum will have to get EXTREMELY lucky in order for us to not win.
Though admittedly, I'm a bit tired right now and might not be thinking that clearly. It's 3 am, and I'm too tired to be making decisions of this nature without thinking the scenarios through some more. I'm a writer; thinking of all the possible outcomes is just what I do, so I'll give a more concrete answer after I've had some sleep.
...Yeah, sleep time. That's pretty incoherent. I'll clarify when my mind is well-rested.
Basically:
We should be wolf-hunting. The lynch today--even if wrong--would help us find the wolf/wolves tomorrow, which'd be wolf-lylo if we miss today. (Theoretically in a worst-case scenario, missing the lynch today would be past lylo, but only in the worst case scenario. It's not very likely.)
Tomorrow's wolf-lylo unless we lynch a wolf today, and I'd prefer the situation where we have additional information giving us hints as to who the wolves are, rather than no additional information (Mafia Lynch Today).
Make sense?
(*Goes to get sleep so he can explain things more coherently*)
1: You CC'd a real cop
2: You think that it's possible to unclaim and then reclaim again
3: Your constant scream "I'm town" "I'm not scum" etc just screams scum to me
4: I have a hard time seeing town would make this large gambit as you did
5: You seems to be think that "I haven't voted/been suspicious for Power and that's why he shouldn't vote for me". I'm gonna tell you a story why that's not gonna work on me
Honestly, I don't know why Mastin's so hellbent on leaving the mafia alive. He counterclaimed the real cop, which is already bad news. If he's so convinced I'm the last mafia, it almost makes me feel like he's a werewolf trying to keep me alive so that there's at least one other person other than his team getting targeted for a lynch.
singersigner wrote:Honestly, I don't know why Mastin's so hellbent on leaving the mafia alive. He counterclaimed the real cop, which is already bad news. If he's so convinced I'm the last mafia, it almost makes me feel like he's a werewolf trying to keep me alive so that there's at least one other person other than his team getting targeted for a lynch.
As long as you are shooting townies, why should he target you? Mafia is only helpful to the werewolves, as they haven't done anything bad to them at all.
singersigner wrote:Honestly, I don't know why Mastin's so hellbent on leaving the mafia alive. He counterclaimed the real cop, which is already bad news. If he's so convinced I'm the last mafia, it almost makes me feel like he's a werewolf trying to keep me alive so that there's at least one other person other than his team getting targeted for a lynch.
As long as you are shooting townies, why should he target you? Mafia is only helpful to the werewolves, as they haven't done anything bad to them at all.
Wait, did I miss something? I'm not a vig if that's what you're saying...
Even still, it's in the mafia's best interest to get the werewolves D.E.D. Especially if they're expecting to mislynch me later.
Powerrox wrote:1: You CC'd a real cop
2: You think that it's possible to unclaim and then reclaim again
3: Your constant scream "I'm town" "I'm not scum" etc just screams scum to me
4: I have a hard time seeing town would make this large gambit as you did
5: You seems to be think that "I haven't voted/been suspicious for Power and that's why he shouldn't vote for me". I'm gonna tell you a story why that's not gonna work on me
1: Look at the background of the situation. I had been calling Gorilla scum the entire game. I sure as heck wasn't going to believe the cop claim, and I felt it was my DUTY to make sure he DIDN'T get away with what I saw to be a fakeclaim.
2: Related to #1. Since I was wrong about Gorilla, I knew things were going to be bad today. My cop-claim gambit failed, because Gorilla really WAS a cop, when I was so certain he was scum. So, today, I needed to claim my actual role. ESPECIALLY since I have reason to believe my role has cleared someone who COULD HAVE been lynched today had I NOT claimed.
3: But I am! Honestly, this is just how I play. I do it all the time as both alignments. I can link you to past town games for proof.
4: Look into my meta a bit. You'll see gambiting is just what I do. Heck, the reason I'm posting under my alt--mastin2--rather than my main--Mastin--is due to a failed gambit. I took a risk, which backfired horribly, but it was not a risk I would have taken as scum. Look at the benefits I have for CC'ing the cop as town and as scum. As scum, I'm CC'ing a role WHICH IS OF NO THREAT TO ME. (Since if I were scum, it'd be Werewolf Scum, not Mafia Scum.) As scum, I ALSO know that Gorilla's telling the truth about his claim, and that I will be GUARANTEED the lynch the next day.
Now, think about that saim CC Gambit as town. I'm CC'ing the guy I have believed to be scum since I replaced in. I think that he's lying, that HE is taking a gambit about there being no real cop in the game, and I'm seeing him get away with it! I don't even think about getting lynched the next day, since I'm so sure Gorilla's lying, so sure he's NOT the cop, that I was willing to counter-claim in order to get him lynched, not even realizing that there was a possibility I wasn't thinking of: him being truthful town, which'd leave me as being in a bad situation.
5: Not really. It's just that there are three facts I know. A: You're town. That's pretty glaringly obvious. B: I'm town. I know, not obvious to anyone but myself, but true nonetheless! C: You are voting me.
And therefore, conclude naturally that
d: You are wrong, and
E: It's therefore my duty to try and convince you to vote for the
actual
scum.
You don't see me appealing to ConSpiracy or Reckamonic, do you? That's because appealing to scum is pretty worthless.
Spoiler: A brief summary of why I'm town
-I cleared someone I had no reason to as scum. As town, on the other hand, it woulda been down-right irresponsible for me NOT to have cleared Zepher.
-I claimed an easily-provable role, which has already had an influence on the night. Unless someone else wants to claim responsibility for the lack of wolf kill.
-I took a gambit which would have been a GUARANTEED loss if I were scum, and therefore could only come from someone who thought they weren't losing the gambit--as in, someone who was (albeit wrong) town.
-The fastwagon which instantly formed on me. Four votes, L-1, in such little time. You honestly believe that's a town wagon, Powerrox? You honestly think that four of the five pro-town players alive voted me in such little time? No, there's scum in there, most likely both of them.
-The fact that I didn't hammer myself. Let's consider a moment, Mastin as Scum. He's caught. He's about to be lynched. But wait--what's this?!? The town wants discussion! They are looking to find his buddy TODAY, rather than waiting until tomorrow! Now, scum-mastin can't have that, can he?
Put bluntly, scum-mastin had the chance to hammer and end discussion for the day, and that would've been the move most playing to his win condition. The fact that I DIDN'T proves how I'm not scum, since if I were scum, you could say that by giving the town the extra time to find my buddy, I was playing against my win condition. (Speaking of which, see above point about my gambit--as scum, it'd be playing against my win condition to make a gambit like that when I KNOW the outcome will be a loss. It's not against my win condition as town, however, since I'm doing another move to get my target lynched.)
-The fact that I have so aggressively been PUMMELING my scumreads. I attacked BOTH Nacho AND T-Bone, and have also been attacking singer pretty hard. That makes them want to NK me, something which I wouldn't mind if I were town but if I were scum would be a serious problem.
-Role. Doctor can't be on the same team as Watcher, since they're redundant.
TL;DR of the summary:
-Clearing someone I had no reason to clear as scum.
-Proven role.
-Taking a gambit which as scum could ONLY result in a loss, whereas when town, the gambit makes perfect sense.
-Fastwagon on me proves I'm not scum and that scum are on me.
-Lack of self-hammer when I had the chance.
-Aggressive scumhunting.
-Role is mutually exclusive with wolves.
That sums it up pretty well, but again, there's far more to this subject.
Look beneath the surface.
On the surface, you might see someone who's caught in a lie.
Look deeper. Look at the MOTIVATION for the lie.
As scum, there is no motivation. It guarantees a lynch on myself, when I'm eliminating someone who isn't a threat.
As town, there is a motivation: to get my target lynched, to eliminate someone who I legitimately believe is scum.
Think about that for a moment. You'll realize I'm right. You'll realize that I'm not scum.
Now, if there aren't any more questions, I would much prefer to switch to offense rather than stay on defense. I've quite conclusively shown you why I'm town, so anyone who isn't tunneling on me (or scum) should realize I'm not the lynch for today.
However, I have yet to prove who SHOULD be the lynch today. It's ConSpiracy, of course, but I need to show you why.
Mastin should really stop saying he cleared Zepher when Zepher was cleared by Godzilla yesterday.
Also, what he's pushing on Con is the same thing he's accusing Con of pushing him on, it's kinda cute.
The flaws in there being,
1: Zepher was cleared of being mafia yesterday, but NOT of being a wolf. If you recall,
Zepher was my number one wolf suspect until today
.
2: I don't no-kill as scum. For evidence of this, you can see my play in...
...Well, any game where I'm scum.
Spoiler: Meta Stuff, Easily Provable
My first time as scum, it was night. I had a choice between someone I was calling town since day one, someone I had been suspicious of but had said suspicion lessened, my main suspicion, and a No Kill. The person I had been suspicious of had claimed to be a Vanilla Townie, and I knew there was a Doctor out there. My first thought WAS to No-Kill, but then I realized that I could simply off the person who claimed VT. (Unfortunately, the real doctor misinterpreted my words the previous day to mean "I think this player is the doctor", when I had specifically said I thought they were NOT the doctor, so my kill was blocked.)
So, I had the opportunity to No-Kill, and chose not to take it.
Or you could look to my most recent newbie-scum-game. The doctor succeeded in a protect N1, but I didn't choose to no-kill night two. I chose a different target (who the doctor ALSO blocked Ah, how bad my luck as scum is...) rather than no-kill.
Spoiler: More Holes In The Theory
But let's ignore my history, my meta, just for a second and think about this logically in this game:
It's a dual-faction game. Two scum-factions, two kills during the night. Meaning, as a wolf, there's ALWAYS the risk of being killed by the mafia IN ADDITION to the risk of being lynched. Not killing intentionally, despite the fact that the other faction most certainly will be killing intentionally--possibly hitting me or my scumbuddy in this hypothetical mastin-scum scenario--is flat-out going against the wolf wincon. The wolves want as many people who are not themselves dead as they possibly can. A no-kill WOULD be suicidal.
More than that. Let's say I went against my established meta. Let's also just for the sake of argument say I didn't think it was against my win condition to not kill as a wolf. How would I manage to convince my PARTNER of this as well? How could I convince them to sacrifice a kill for a One-In-A-Million shot of me living?
I'm not that charismatic. Historically, my choice for scum kills has always been overridden by my scumbuddies. I've never selected a kill unless I was the only scum alive.
So, the wolf-no-kill theory is shot full of so many holes.
Occam's razor comes into play.
Which is simpler? I'm the Doctor, who successfully protected Zepher, clearing him of being a wolf...
...Or that I'm a Werewolf, who went against my normal meta, doing a play which I see as blatantly against my win condition, managed to FURTHER go against my past record and convince my scumbuddy to go along with this crazy plan, all for the sake of a Gambit which has a One-In-A-Million chance of success?
Yeah. The former.
More than that.
Let's--just for the sake of argument--say that the points I made in my defense of myself about my role aren't valid, even though I just proved they were. Just for a moment, assume that Reckamonic successfully shot them down. Heck, let's even be generous to Reckamonic and not include the part where I clear Zepher.
Removing all of those from my defense. Just for this argument, in this one moment. Guess what?
Mastin wrote:-Taking a gambit which as scum could ONLY result in a loss, whereas when town, the gambit makes perfect sense.
-Fastwagon on me proves I'm not scum and that scum are on me.
-Lack of self-hammer when I had the chance.
-Aggressive scumhunting.
Am I allowed to just scream WIFOM to the face of your four points?
Presumably you've cleared both yourself and Zepher from being wolves. Under the precept both yourself and Zepher are the remaining wolves, you'd be in a pretty good position if you manage to convince the town to vote ConSpyracy.
I wish you luck in your endeavor, but you're gonna get lynched.
Also you've been here for years, Meta from your first game is completely invalid.
EDIT: what kind of BRILLIANT DOC protects his no.1 scum suspects when a crosskill would be good for the town?
Singer wrote:Even still, it's in the mafia's best interest to get the werewolves D.E.D. Especially if
they're expecting to mislynch me later.
I don't want to be lynched later.
Corrected, but more or less accurate. The mafia want at least one wolf dead right now. That's why singer should be left alive today: because she (currently) has the same objective as us: Wolf Hunting.
I'll do the math a little later now that I'm more coherent, exploring all the possible scenarios, but I do believe I will conclude that singer shouldn't be lynched today.
Reckamonic wrote:Also, what he's pushing on Con is the same thing he's accusing Con of pushing him on, it's kinda cute.
This'll need explaining.
Also. I had high hopes for Reckamonic. If they were town, they would remember the old Mastin. They would realize that this is just the sort of thing I do...as town. They would realize that I speak the truth about my play and am not scum.
Heck, I've been scum with Reck since my return, and while I don't really count that game as being a scum game of mine and they only got a partial glance into the Mind of Mafia-Mastin, it still would be something they'd at least take a glance to, if they were town. They'd weigh whether they think I was gambiting as town or scum.
Instead, they've concluded that I'm scum. That's the proof I needed to show them as being ConSpiracy's buddy.
Reck hasn't posted in quite a while, this is the amonic part of the hydra.
And yes, I think you pushing a cop to death in a setup where a cop existing makes sense is indicative you really don't have the best interest of the town at heart. I've seen similar gambits. Heck, Reck pulled something like that in the recently ended psychic mafia (modded by me) and it made sense there because there was no logical indication of the existence of a tracker.
You trying to make us believe that in a NORMAL game with a WW-cop, you'd think there is no cop is completely subpar play.
I remember little of the old mastin, we havent really played together. What I remember is the walls, and that you werent fuckin terrible back then. I'm assuming you havent degraded too much and are trying to pull an (albeit awful) gambit on the fairly newbish town (no offense meant to anyone here)
). WORST case scenario is that SOMEHOW, the wolf and mafia know who each other are and magically coordinate kills so it ends up 1-1-1. I find it far more likely that one of them--if not both--will crosskill, leaving 2-1 as our lylo.
